Bible End Time is Islam

Originally posted by n1zzzn
I think it would be very rash and very detremental to one's self to act upon anti-Muslim feelings or those that could be derived from this thread (which just screams weak minded).
There doesn't seem to be a direct emphasis on discrediting or attacking Islam, the thread topic seems to have held true to the orignal hypothesis of Islam relating to Revelations.

These "takes" seem to come from a deep-rooted fear of Islamic people.

To discredit the idea by attacking the topic as Anti-Muslim or the like doesn't really seem credibile.

And to create an entire thread extrapolating on the idea Muslims are Satan spawn who are bringing about the end of the world doesn't exactly seem credible either.

And to refute something I saw earlier regarding the Bible and authenticity, you say it cannot be proven true based it may have been edited.
I offer you this in direct relation to the comment: you can't prove it false either.

Unfortunately this statement doesn't help your cause any. If you cannot prove the Bible to be correct (or even accurate), you cannot prove your theories to be correct, therefore this garbage about being "Non-PC" or "Talking about Revelation" is just a smokescreen for another agenda.

To sit there and proclaim "We need to bomb Iranians" based on something written 2000 years ago is insane.

The reason the bible only mentions the Middle East is because that was the only place the writers knew existed. Those countries are where Islam began so it makes sense that those countries would be Islamic today.

The writers never mentioned present day UK, North/South America, Asia and Europe simply because they didn't know they existed.

Originally posted by arcnaver
Islam and other submissive religions will say, "We should get along, after all, its the same god we worship!"

No its not! They are worshiping the Moon God, Satan. BIG Difference their.

Want proof, look it up yourselves for a chance, thats the only way you will be convinced anyways.

Proof? You mean something like this from the Quran?

Surrah 41:37 "Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone. "

Surrah 35:6 "Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents,that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire."

So you say "Allah" means "Moon God" and then "Satan." So which is it? Since you're keen on giving us an Arabic lesson on etymology, do tell us what "Allah" means in Arabic and "illlah."

[edit on 2-1-2009 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by antonia

reply to post by whiteraven


i know right. maybe the bible didnt realize at the time how powerfull modern day militaries would be. i mean you cant seriously think america will get knocked off the world stage. even if china bankrupts us we still are a significant threat to every nation in the world.

religion vs. religion
my interpretation vs. your interpretation
bible vs. quran
jew vs. muslim

if i remember correctly the jews dont recognize jesus as the son. so how are they any better than the muslims?

Originally posted by antonia
These "takes" seem to come from a deep-rooted fear of Islamic people.

I can assure these takes are not from "fear". The root of my statement is taken from my understanding of self and those around me. I stated it would be detrimental to act because in my belief it's completely stupid, idiotic and extremely unjust to form an opinion or any act of voilence over the hypothesis formed be the OP.

Originally posted by antonia
And to create an entire thread extrapolating on the idea Muslims are Satan spawn who are bringing about the end of the world doesn't exactly seem credible either.

I don't view Muslims as "spawns of satan" and I don't think the thread promotes that. The topic was the possibility that the teachings of the religion may be in line with the prophesized "End Times" in the Bible.
If anything this doesn't make Muslim people in my mind evil, if the hypothesis put forth by the OP were in fact true it'd make the teachings deceitful (as I agree most non radical Muslims are very peaceful people and not "warmongers"). I also believe they have been unjustly pointed out and seperated as targets of fear in the US (and this is another example of weak minds / being controlled by fear in action.)

Originally posted by antonia
Unfortunately this statement doesn't help your cause any. If you cannot prove the Bible to be correct (or even accurate), you cannot prove your theories to be correct, therefore this garbage about being "Non-PC" or "Talking about Revelation" is just a smokescreen for another agenda.

To sit there and proclaim "We need to bomb Iranians" based on something written 2000 years ago is insane.

A hypothesis in essence is a theory that cannot be proven or dis-proven. So from now on I shall label my "theory" as "hypothesis" to save confusion.
The "bomb the Iranians" topic really doesn't need to be included in this thread as in my mind it takes away from the actual topic @ hand. I haven't advocated such action in regards to this statement so I won't make defensive comments about it.

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by VinceP1974


Iran says it's their role in this world to start a nuclear war. And it's been shown that Iran is deceitful negotiator but that is moot because Iran says the issue is not up for any more diplomacy. The question is.. what does one do about that?

Can you prove the Iranian government has made such claims?

Here are some statements
memri.org...
In a speech about Iran's nuclear program, Ahmadinejad declared that Iran has become a global power, and that it would place its nuclear technology at the service of those determined to confront the U.S. and other Western countries [...] Ahmadinejad declared that the world was now at an historic turning point. The history of the West, he said, had reached its end, and the appearance of the Hidden Imam, heralding the era of Islamic Shi'ite rule, was nigh. [1] Thus, he called on the nations of the world to rise up against the hegemony of the West, headed by the U.S., and predicted the imminent collapse of Israel, which he called "Satan's standard-bearer."

===============

memri.org...
On August 29, 2007, Ahmadinejad said, "The Iranian nation and the Islamic Revolution have a pivotal role in preparing the ground for the coming of the Hidden Imam... We must rapidly develop Iran in order to create the [right] conditions for his coming, and we must also help the rest of the world's nations [to prepare for his return], in order to precipitate this great event..."

"The responsibility that currently rests on Iran's [shoulders] is very heavy; it is the kind of mission [with which] the divine prophets [were entrusted]. It does not permit us to rest or slumber even for a moment. Have you ever seen a prophet take a rest from the fulfillment of his mission?..."
=============
memri.org...
The Doctrine of Mahdism: In the Ideological and Political Philosophy of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Ayatollah Mesbah-e Yazdi

According to Shi’ite tradition, the Twelve Imams, descendants of the Prophet Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law Ali Ibn Abi Talib, were endowed with divine qualities that enabled them to lead the Shi’ite believers and to function as Allah’s emissaries on earth. However, when the Twelfth Imam Muhammad Al-Mahdi [1] disappeared in 941 CE, his connection with the Shi’ite believers was severed, and since then, the Shi’ites are commanded to await his return at any tim

During the era of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, founder of Iran’s Islamic regime, Mahdism remained outside the political realm. However, Khomeini’s era was nonetheless characterized by messianic fervor. The Iranians attributed messianic qualities to him, and conferred upon him the title of “Imam,” which until then had been reserved for the Twelve Imams. In fact, Khomeini’s rise to power was seen at the time as the realization of the prophecy regarding the Mahdi’s return.

Khomeini’s instatement of the Rule of the Jurisprudent (velayat-e faqih) in Iran prompted a transformation in Shi’ism, replacing its traditional passivity with a more active outlook. As part of this change, Khomeini stated that the Shi’ites must not just passively await the return of the Mahdi, but must actively prepare the ground for his return and for the deliverance of the Shi’ite community. One component of this active approach was the taking of power by the clerics. However, Khomeini kept the doctrine of Mahdism at the periphery of the political sphere. He neither claimed to have a direct connection with God, nor presumed to foresee the hour of the Mahdi’s return.

- more to come -

- continued from last post , text from same article-]

Ahmadinejad has also presented himself as being privy to God’s intentions and actions, as reflected in his statement that “God has appointed the Hidden Imam to be our supporter.” [8] His claim of having a direct relationship with God was also evident in the speech he made upon his return to Iran after addressing the U.N. General Assembly in 2005. Ahmadinejad claimed that, as he was delivering his U.N. address, he felt himself “surrounded by a halo of light” symbolizing the messianic nature of his message to the nations of the world. [9]

As part of their commitment to these preparations Iranian ministers signed a pledge of allegiance to the Hidden Imam during the government’s first session . [12]

It should be noted that political manifestations of Ahmadinejad’s messianic beliefs were evident even prior to his election to the presidency. According to reports, during his term as mayor of Tehran (2003-2005), the municipality printed a city map which showed, among other things, the route that will be taken by the Mahdi upon his return. [16]

At the International Seminar on the Doctrine of Mahdism, held in Iran September 6-7, 2006 during the celebrations for the Mahdi’s birthday, and attended by representatives of various countries, Ahmadinejad emphasized the universal and active nature of Mahdism and called on the West to accept it: “Today mankind is proceeding towards the truth. Today the happiness of mankind depends on proceeding towards the truth. Today we invite everyone to proceed towards the truth, since [the truth] is the only way... This celebration [of the Mahdi’s birthday] is not only for Muslims but for the entire world. The Mahdi belongs to all of mankind...


Messianism in Iranian Foreign Policy

The messianic doctrine of Mahdism is also manifest in Iranian foreign policy, especially in its attitude towards the Western superpowers and towards the nuclear program. Ayatollah Mesbah-e Yazdi, mentor to Ahmadinejad, expressed this approach in an October 11, 2006 speech: “The greatest obligation of those awaiting the appearance of the Mahdi is fighting heresy and global arrogance [i.e. the West, primarily the U.S.].” [18]

Ahmadinejad’s speeches are characteristically derisive of the “forces of arrogance,” i.e., the West, primarily the U.S., and threatening towards anyone who does not accept Shi’ite messianism as an alternative to the “perdition and destruction” awaiting them: “Those who do not respond to the call to proceed towards the truth - a good destiny does not await them. I heard that the president of one of those countries [i.e. U.S. President George Bush]... said that Iran’s president was threatening him. I say to him: ‘I am not the one threatening you. It is the entire world that threatens you, because the world in its entirety is steadfast against oppression and the oppressors. You [Western countries] are nothing compared to the might of God. We invite you to [take] the righteous path, the path of the Prophets, of monotheism and justice. If you believe that you can sit in your glass palaces and determine the fate of the world, you are mistaken... Our call [to you] to take the direction of truth [stems] from pity. We do not want you to get into trouble, since you know that the outcome of oppression and injustice is perdition and destruction.” [19]

According to the Internet daily Rooz, “Some of those close to Ahmadinejad, who frequently speak [of the need] to prepare the ground for the Mahdi’s return, explicitly link the [fate of] the Iranian nuclear dossier to this need... According to reliable information, they stressed, in various private meetings,

that the [Iranian] opposition to global pressure [on the Iranian nuclear program] and its insistence on the right to utilize nuclear power are among the ways to ways to prepare the ground for the return of the [Hidden] Imam.”

Originally posted by n1zzzn

I don't view Muslims as "spawns of satan" and I don't think the thread promotes that.

Then you are going to need to explain why several people in this thread (the OP included) have said Allah is Satan.

Originally posted by antonia
The "bomb the Iranians" topic really doesn't need to be included in this thread as in my mind it takes away from the actual topic @ hand. I haven't advocated such action in regards to this statement so I won't make defensive comments about it.

I did not say you made these comments. The OP made the "bomb iran" statement. I think its indicative of what his true intention in posting this thread is.

reply to post by VinceP1974


I don't want conjecture from biased think tank. I want the unaltered statements.

OP, an interesting thing to note since you mentioned the whole "left behind" belief that christians have, A.K.A The rapture (which by the way, not all christians have this belief) recently I actually picked up my New Testament bible, what with the way this world is right now, I couldn't help but try and do some research and compare events. Anyway, what I wanted to mention, was that nowhere in revelations (at least in my bible) did it ever mention the rapture. That being said, it does mention that the 144k of God's chosen were "kept away" or "kept in safety" but nowhere did it say that they were swooshed away to heaven and then brought back.

When I brought this up to one of my relatives, he mentioned that, that is actually very common since not all holy bibles share everything 100% But that there are many minor inconsistencies between bible versions (For example, in my version the "seals" in revelations are replaced with "trumpets" instead).

So it is logical to assume then, that some christians hold to the belief of a rapture/"left behind" belief while others, perhaps due to the version they're reading from, don't have that belief.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Question]

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by VinceP1974


Iran says it's their role in this world to start a nuclear war. And it's been shown that Iran is deceitful negotiator but that is moot because Iran says the issue is not up for any more diplomacy. The question is.. what does one do about that?

Can you prove the Iranian government has made such claims?

I just realized I answered the wrong question. Ooops, I was distracted and didn't read your question well enough. Give me a moment.

Originally posted by antonia
Then you are going to need to explain why several people in this thread (the OP included) have said Allah is Satan.

I see where the confusion comes from against what I've said.
If the Muslim version of Allah is indeed Satan that doesn't make the Islamic people "satanic". From my exposure to Islam I wouldn't blame the Islamic people directly that aren't radicals.. I'd see them as having been deceived out right. (and of course due to my nature that's a forgivable defense)

But if the hypothesis posed here is true.. I hope the majority of said Muslims realize it.

On the bomb Iran comments.. I agree with you but I don't think it completely removes the core of the topic.

Originally posted by DJMessiah


Proof? You mean something like this from the Quran?

Surrah 41:37 "Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone. "

Surrah 35:6 "Verily Satan is an enemy to you: so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his adherents,that they may become Companions of the Blazing Fire."

So you say "Allah" means "Moon God" and then "Satan." So which is it? Since you're keen on giving us an Arabic lesson on etymology, do tell us what "Allah" means in Arabic and "illlah."

[edit on 2-1-2009 by DJMessiah]

i think i can resolve the confusion somewhat on this score.

but first, we have to follow the etymology trail.

it goes something like this:

al'lah is from ba'al and bel, who is from el, who is from il, who is from lil, who is Enlil. enlil is jehovah.

same thing applies to satan, the serpent from the abyss (abzu). he and his temple became associated with water (ab) because of the abzu (abyss), which by the time of babel and babylon, was stated as "BA" instead of "AB".
his etymology is ba'al and bel, who is from el, who is from il, who is from lil, who is from enlil. but enlil is not the serpent from the abyss. what happened was, the word for god from that timeframe (sumer) was LIL, shortened to IL (and ILU). by the time of late akkad, it had been mixed with the water prefix, giving the impression that IL was any god, including the "BA"BEL water god.

long story short, al'lah is jehovah, generically-speaking, because the original word for god (LIL) is in the etymology.



when the god word is prefaced by BA or AB or simply B, i theorize it must be indicating the serpent god from the abyss (abzu)

[edit on 2-1-2009 by undo]

reply to post by VinceP1974



Bible end-time is Islam? Is that right? And you worked that out because of the verse in the bible stating that whoever denied Jesus as Christ is the anti-Christ?

The Muslims never denied that Jesus is a Messiah, his title in the Holy Quran bears this witness, the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary.

(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). 3:45 Holy Quran.

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. 2:136

Or do you think that Jesus is a Christian? Or a Jew? If he is then why are his followers Muslims?

(5) But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are Muslims. (men who have surrendered to Allah). 3:52

The ANTI-CHRIST is one who believes that Jesus is God, that is the teaching of Satan and not of Christ. Of the 124,000 prophets and messengers sent to the Children of Israel, tell me who among these Prophets bore witness that Jesus is God and to be worshiped along with God?

(11) O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. 4:171

(17) And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be Ye glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden. 5:116

God has promised that He will make Islam conqueror of all religion. And God's promise is certain Destiny.

(34) He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse. 9:33

(11) And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. 3:85

(23) Say: Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the community of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater.
6:161

God has enjoined only one Religion from Adam to the Prophet Muhammad and that is the Surrender to His Will and Guidance (Islam).

(48) And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

You have fixed in your mind that Islam is the Anti-Christ, but that is farthest from the truth. The TRUTH is that ISLAM is the New Kingdom of God, the Nation of Ismael which God had made fruitful, the STONE which the builders rejected, became the corner stone. This stone foretold in Daniel 2:31-35 which turned into a mountain.

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure. (Daniel 2:36-45, NKJV).

This is ISLAM, God's Kingdom which will never be destroyed, it shall break all the Kingdoms of the Idolaters, and it shall stand forever.

2 It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were Muslims. 15:2

After the Truth what else is there except error?

(2) And Allah will vindicate the Truth by His words, however much the guilty be averse. 10:82

Originally posted by n1zzzn
I see where the confusion comes from against what I've said.
If the Muslim version of Allah is indeed Satan that doesn't make the Islamic people "satanic".

If Allah is Satan then it means Muslims worship Satan. There is no way to wiggle out of that.

On the bomb Iran comments.. I agree with you but I don't think it completely removes the core of the topic.

If the original intent of the poster is to spread fear of the Islamic faith (or Iranians) then we can also be assured the OP will twist "facts" presented in the bible to make his argument convincing. Bad intentions tend to equate to bad actions.

edit for spelling.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by antonia]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by antonia]

Originally posted by drock905
The reason the bible only mentions the

Middle East is because that was the only place the writers knew existed.

They weren't stupid back then. There are indeed many references to locations as far apart as Spain to China. Those places are in the Bible.

Those countries are where Islam began so it makes sense that those countries would be Islamic today.
The writers never mentioned present day UK, North/South America, Asia and Europe simply because they didn't know they existed.

It doesn't make sense that the Bible would treat all those countries identically because until Islam came , nothing ever unified all of them. Meaning that since it does treat them all the same, I take that as it having foreknowledge that they all would eventually be under one banner in lethal opposition to Israel.


I'm quite confident the people in the Middle East were more than aware of Eurpoe and UK. America not so much.

The End Time stuff is all about proximity. location does matter. It defies common sense to start inventing references to places on the other side of earth when it names specific locations engaging in physical war against Israel.

reply to post by VinceP1974



Anybody that quotes from MEMRI has no credibility, you might as well quote from a neonazi site.

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by n1zzzn

I don't view Muslims as "spawns of satan" and I don't think the thread promotes that.

Then you are going to need to explain why several people in this thread (the OP included) have said Allah is Satan.

Um are Muslims Allah? Do try to read a little more carefully. I choose my words carefully and try not to characterize human beings as I do when describing the evil inherent in some spiritual forces and ideologies.

The Islam religion is evil. Muslims caught up in it will be more likely to engage in its evil. Not all will.but some will.

All my words regarding what Muslims will do only pertain to the Muslims who do them.

I define a Muslim as someone adherent to Islamic Law/Sharia.
Muslims are every bit responsible for the things they choose to align themselves with as were the Germans in NAZI Germany.

Originally posted by antonia
reply to post by VinceP1974

 

I don't want conjecture from biased think tank. I want the unaltered statements.

Then look for them yourself. I'm not your research department. Nor do I care if you disagree with my assertions. I am merely sharing my opinion and providing reasonable substantiation for why I formed them, I am not vested in any ones change of conviction.