Originally posted by Slate
An interesting discussion going on here.

The theory that Allah was really an Arab moon god is something that I was not familiar with.

It appears that you believe that Muhammad merely convinced the Arab people that their moon god was actually the supreme god, and he then managed to tie that god into also being the god of the Christians and the Jews in some strange way.

However what I'm curious about is this:

Quran 41:37 -Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone.

This verse seems to be a command to not worship the sun or the moon. Now if it said to not worship the sun it would not be a big deal. If Muhammad was simply building a religion around the moon, this verse would have confused a LOT of his followers. This confusion would have led to clarification by Muhammad which we would most likely be aware of. In my most humble opinion the more probable answer is that this verse was clarifying that Islam was separate form the polytheistic views dominant at that time. The verse is an attack on the moon, sun, and the other Arab gods instead of proclaiming that one of the Arab gods was superior to the others. It seems to be a nail in the coffin of the moon god theory.

Any disagreements???

Slate, Islam , emphatically is not overtly a moon religion. Muslims are not taught anything about the moon to worship it, etc..

What Mohemmed did was de-paganize Allah by first becoming Montheistic and claiming there was only One god , Allah, and he is the greatest. (Allahuakbar)

Then he became iconoclastic and forbade images or represntations of gods. This led to all the stones being thrown out of the Kabba.. although in theory the Allah stone is still in there.

Allah's rock is said to be a meteor and black.

Mohemmed didn't change much about the pre-Islamic religious principles.. like the Hajj was still the thing to do.. throwning rocks in some valley, killing animals at various times. etc..

At first Mohemmed thought the Jews of Mecca (there was a big Jewish population in both cities) would accept his Prophethood. But they laughed at him and told him that there is no way he is a prophet in line with their prophets.

THis really got him mad. And when he got kicked out of Mecca , he made his way to the Arab/Jewish city of Yathrib. Yathrib's politics featured two Arabs tribes that were in the midsts of hundreds of years of fighting agaisnt each other, and good-sized Jewish tribes.

In Yahtrib, Mohemmed somehow got the Arabs there to believe his stories and the two factions became Muslims and stopped fighting.

Mohemmed then declared the Jews to be his enemy and eventually they genocided the Jewish tribes. The city was renamed Medina.

Then with his new folowers and their ever growing confidence and momentum he made his way back to Mecca and took over the town and the Kabaa.. and this is when he went to the kabaa and they cleaned it out of polytheism and elevated Allah as the Greatest.



[edit on 3-1-2009 by VinceP1974]

Originally posted by VinceP1974
The moon was everywhere. It was very freaky standing in a skyscraper looking at the flags of the world and having so many have the moon god on them

How convenient for you to label everything as "moon god."

Have you even looked into the history of why the moon is used in Islamic symbolism? Every heard of Constantine and his use of the moon? Ever notice how the same exact moon you keep attributing to the "moon god" is in statues and paintings of Mary at her foot? Think these are all related? Why don't you actually do some research rather than paraphrase what a book says?

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Ok. so before Islam, in teh Kabaa are 360 gods. As in common in the Arabian peninsula, the chief god is the moon god. In the Kabaa that god is called Allah.

Wrong again. I don't know how to explain it any more clearly.

illaha = "god"

Allah = "God"

No pagan god was called "Allah," but rather "illaha"or "illahu."

Allah specifically was used only to mean the Abrahimic God.

Do you understand or are you just ignoring the facts?

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by VinceP1974
The moon was everywhere. It was very freaky standing in a skyscraper looking at the flags of the world and having so many have the moon god on them

How convenient for you to label everything as "moon god."

Have you even looked into the history of why the moon is used in Islamic symbolism? Every heard of Constantine and his use of the moon? Ever notice how the same exact moon you keep attributing to the "moon god" is in statues and paintings of Mary at her foot? Think these are all related? Why don't you actually do some research rather than paraphrase what a book says?

Oh so typical from your type.. I've done no research huh?

Whatevah

I learned one thing... not to waste my time with people like yourself.

Very common tactics you've employed, its like they train you folks at a stamping factory.

It's so bizarre this line of attack

When Muslims make their basic profession of faith they say
"La ilaha ill Allah."
There is god but Allah

If Allah means "the god" why do they say "ilaha" for god? Because if Allah means a god then that sentence reads "There is no god but god".. which is nonsense.

Allah is used as a proper noun every time it's used.

Even here
(Qur'an 17:110) "Say, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful."

Allah is one of his names. just like Ar-Rahman.

In Sura 2 Allah calls himself the Ilah of Abraham. God of abraham.

So does it make sense that Arabic has two generic words for God, ilah and allah. and always uses Allah as a proper name and always uses ilah as a generic label. but then we're supposed to believe that the word Allah is of no significance even though Arabs around the world flip out if ice cream swirls make the shape of the Arabic script for Allah?



And the stuff about the Roman Church is irrelevent. 1 - It was under a bit of corrupting influence as well 2 - We're talkihng about holy and perfect Islam, surely Islam isn't corrupted , right?

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Ok. so before Islam, in teh Kabaa are 360 gods. As in common in the Arabian peninsula, the chief god is the moon god. In the Kabaa that god is called Allah.

Wrong again. I don't know how to explain it any more clearly.

illaha = "god"

Allah = "God"

No pagan god was called "Allah," but rather "illaha"or "illahu."

Allah specifically was used only to mean the Abrahimic God.

Do you understand or are you just ignoring the facts?

Of course there was an Allah before MOhemmed. When he went around telling them that Allah was the main god. why did they already know who he was?

He wasn't introducing a new god to them.. he was elevating an existing one. T Hey already knew his name.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Of course there was an Allah before MOhemmed. When he went around telling them that Allah was the main god. why did they already know who he was?

Because Judaism and Christianity already existed in Arabia.

He wasn't introducing a new god to them.. he was elevating an existing one. T Hey already knew his name.

Correct. Those who knew of the Jewish and Christian God knew who Allah was. It was Abraham who initially built the Kabaa to honor God, and only though time did it become a center for pagans to idolize their different gods. Muhammad came and reestablished its use to only honor the God of Abraham.

Originally posted by dooper

One other note. In the words of the Old Testament, which Muhammed referred to, we find that God (JAHWEH) never changes. Ever.

And yet the god Allah is the antithesis of YAHWEH.

Go figure.

A major difference between how God and his staff work in the Bible vs how they worked in Arabia in the 600s is how the angels conducted themselves.

In the Bible whenever an angel appears to a human, they usually say "Do not be afraid"

Acts 27:23 For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve came to me and said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul!

Daniel 10:7 Only I, Daniel, saw the vision; the men who were with me did not see it. On the contrary, they were overcome with fright and ran away to hide. I alone was left to see this great vision. My strength drained from me, and my vigor disappeared; I was without energy ... Then he said to me, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel, for from the very first day you applied your mind to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard. I have come in response to your words.

Daniel 10:18 Then the one who appeared to be a human being touched me again and strengthened me. He said to me, “Don’t be afraid, you who are valued. Peace be to you! Be strong! Be really strong!” When he spoke to me, I was strengthened. I said, “Sir, you may speak now, for you have given me strength.”

Genesis 21:17 But God heard the boy’s voice. The angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and asked her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Don’t be afraid, for God has heard the boy’s voice right where he is crying


Now in Islam, it's practically a rape when Allah's angel comes to visit:

This is Mohemmeds first visit from "Gabriel".. Isn't it lovely?

Bukhari:V1B1N3-V6B60N478

"The commencement of divine inspiration to Allah's Messenger was in the form of dreams that came true like a bright light. The Prophet loved the seclusion of a cave in Hira.

The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, 'I do not know how to read.' The Prophet added, 'Then the angel caught me forcefully and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He released me and asked me to read. I replied, "I do not know how to read."

Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me till I could not bear it any more. He asked me to read but I replied, "I do not know how to read or what shall I read?"

Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, "Read in the name of your Lord who has created man from a clot. Read! Your Lord is the most generous."

Then the Apostle returned from that experience; the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling, and his heart beating severely. He went to Khadija and cried, 'Cover me! Cover me.' She did until his fear subsided. He said, 'What's wrong with me? I am afraid that something bad has happened to me.' Khadija replied, 'Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you....'"

Originally posted by VinceP1974

A major difference between how God and his staff work in the Bible vs how they worked in Arabia in the 600s is how the angels conducted themselves.

In the Bible whenever an angel appears to a human, they usually say "Do not be afraid"

I'm afraid I must emphasize the word "usually". One exemption to the rule was in the story of Balaam.

I think the answer is very simple. YAWEH = "I AM", ALLAH = "THE GOD" Both statements are very generic terms provided to humanity by GOD, who wished to remain nameless because being named is being defined. GOD can not easily be defined. Hence the many "descriptions " or even better "nicknames" that aid in describing GOD. Nobody knows the true name of GOD. When Moses asked GOD his name he responded with "I AM" This is not his true name, it is a nickname, just as "The GOD" isn't his true name, it's a nickname. I would hope that this debate can be resolved by using simple logic. All parties are arguing over which nickname is the true name, the answer is NONE are. No one knows the true name. To help make everyone feel better, I believe everyone in this post is referring to the GOD of Abraham, the father of Ishmael and Isaac. I believe both the Bible and the Koran have misinterpretations based on humanity not being able to understand the lessons being taught. This whole argument and the stances being taken over the interpretation of sounds meant to represent GOD proves my point emphatically. Comments welcomed!

Originally posted by Chris2pher
I think the answer is very simple. YAWEH = "I AM", ALLAH = "THE GOD" Both statements are very generic terms provided to humanity by GOD, who wished to remain nameless because being named is being defined. GOD can not easily be defined. Hence the many "descriptions " or even better "nicknames" that aid in describing GOD. Nobody knows the true name of GOD. When Moses asked GOD his name he responded with "I AM" This is not his true name, it is a nickname, just as "The GOD" isn't his true name, it's a nickname. I would hope that this debate can be resolved by using simple logic. All parties are arguing over which nickname is the true name, the answer is NONE are. No one knows the true name. To help make everyone feel better, I believe everyone in this post is referring to the GOD of Abraham, the father of Ishmael and Isaac. I believe both the Bible and the Koran have misinterpretations based on humanity not being able to understand the lessons being taught. This whole argument and the stances being taken over the interpretation of sounds meant to represent GOD proves my point emphatically. Comments welcomed!

HI. Yes indeed, the Muslims are taught that their religion is tied to the religion of the Bible because of their genetic connection to the Jewish people.

Well the genetic connection is true without a doubt. But unless יהוה had a nervous breakdown in the 600 years after Christ then there is no way that יהוה is the same entity as الله the god of Islam.

Note what the prophet Daniel has to say about the Antichrist.


Daniel 11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every deity and he will utter presumptuous things against the God of gods. He will succeed until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been decreed must occur. He will not respect the gods of his fathers – not even the god loved by women.

The Mahdi is said to be almost like a reincarnation of the first Mohemmed , if that is true or has a truth in it.. then it's safe to say that Daniel is correct.

Mohemmed rejected the worship of the 359 pagan gods in the Kabaa and elevated one, Allah, as the only One god.

I have no idea what god is loved by women, but it would fit that that god wouldn't be الله because it's obvious he has complete contempt for women.

He will not respect any god; he will elevate himself above them all.

The Antichrist is said to be bestowed with the authority of Satan and/or that he is actually possessed by Satan. Not respecting any god and the self-elevation are very Satan-like tendencies.

11:38 What he will honor is a god of fortresses – a god his fathers did not acknowledge he will honor with gold, silver, valuable stones, and treasured commodities.

A god of fortresses is a war god. The moon god is a war god. I dont know what to make of the god his fathers did not give gifts to. I would have to do more historical research to know.

So even though the bloodlines are connected. The religions are not. Plus Islam is very hostile to Jews and Christians.. this is because the Jews humiliated Mohemmed and Christians just ignored him.

It is not to the Jews or Christians advantage that this false association between their religions and Islam was manufactured.

Islam is an usurper religion. It claims the achievements of others as its own. And so by it claiming heritage of the Bible it feels it is entitled to everything in the Bible and the real-world objects that are connected to it.

I took the advice of another poster, and I'm back with a spiffy new username. Yeahhh. Anyway, I posted anonymously earlier, I think I referred to myself as a rare specimen in Islam. Anyway, as I stated earlier, in the Old Testament, henceforth labeled OT, God told Abraham that Ismail would receive a great nation, because he is the seed of Abraham. This is Islam. Yes Islam in it's current form is corrupted, to a certain degree, but not so much as it would have been had God not stopped any tampering with the Quran. Anyway, back to what I was saying. I'm only going to say this once, I'm not really the type to repeat myself. Try to keep up will you. God bestowed upon Moses the Law. The Jews , Isaacs prodigy, began what God promised Abraham so long before. They continued along this path, until God decided that they were ready for higher enlightenment. Then God sent unto them Jesus, and Jesus preached the Truth. That God is Love, that God is within us all, and we are a part of God. The reason that God sent to them Jesus, who was highly enlightened and probably of the fourth density, was the fact that indeed Bani Israel (Tribe of Israel) are Gods chosen people. We all know how that ended up, Pharisees and such (btw Pharisees are the ancestors of modern day zionism, research it). But Jesus was preaching what many of us know today, that God is Love. Then God decided it was time to bestow upon Ismails progeny the great nation which he promised Abraham he would have as well. Remember Hagar and the child. No water? God opened a flowing spring in the lands of Beersheba. This is what is nowadays called Zamzam, right next to the Kaaba, which Abraham built. The great nation for Ismail is Islam. The Quran is the equivalent of the OT. Read both, notice the message is the same. Alot of the content is the same. Are you still with me? God promised there will be no tampering with the Quran. And there has been none. If one reads the Quran, one sees why prophet Mohammad was the last prophet. The Quran in and of itself is a means to spiritual enlightenment. And it will not be tampered with. The Sufis know this, which is why you don't see sufis running around slaughtering people. Take it from me, I am reaching higher levels of consciousness, and it started with reading the Quran. That is why we will not have a Jesus figure for Islam. Because God told us that all of his books are holy, one only has to read the scriptures ( OT, NT, Quran) and their eyes will open. Men have corrupted the Spiritual teachings of the prophets. Used them for their own gain. Yes even prophet Mohammads'. Islam is just as succeptible to the machinations of powerful men as any other religion, monotheistic or otherwise.


Yes, this is the end times. No Islam is not the enemy of Christianity, or Judaism. And it will only come down to something like that if we allow ourselves to be divided. Jesus said that in these times, men will perform miracles as he did, and even greater miracles. This is true. These are the benefits of raising your consiousness from third to fourth density, the benefits of truly understanding that God is Love. That we are all one within the creator, and his creation. That we are not Gods but of God. I truly pity those who allow themselves to be so divided, it just makes us easier to be conquered.

And for the poster who said that angels have always come in Love and never fear, have you ever expanded your consciousness? It can be a truly overwhelming experience, I can see how it would be specially so for one who is illiterate and not very aware, so much more so because God had raised his consciousness to very high level instantaneously.

Peace and Love. Btw I'm Muslim and I love you all