How real are the Gods?

Originally posted by danx
Not really sure why SLAYER69 is all up in arms for having asked this, though...

I was in the middle of eating the best Hogey ever made and got sidetracked

Back to the OP

My question was really aimed at why would we consider them as gods or see them as being human.

I mean if we are talking way back days I mean really way back then primative man would consider anything that they could not wrap their heads around would be magic or beyond their understanding and we all know about cargo culture etc no need to go into that.

But I often have wondered about why did they give certain gods certain characteristics such as some have wings Maybe they flew around which was beyond primitive mans description of a flying vehicle and some had scales like a fish maybe those came from the sea in an advanced type of craft or submarine etc.

Get my point?


In the end if they were visitors what would they likely have in common with us?
Two arms, two legs, a head so in a way they looked like humans and had scientific abilities that was way beyond primitive mans ability to comprehend so they gave the gods weird characteristics.

imho

[edit on 1-1-2009 by SLAYER69]

I totlay agree with you. that is spot on. They wouldnt even have WORDS for these machines or even the functions of the machines... they would just be blown away... and you would have them put together some writings trying to explain it.. then we would get smarter and begin assuming that they ment all of this ignorant talk literaly... whew what a mind F that would have been... i mean is

reply to post by Wertdagf


Well think about it, if that was in fact the case, what the early preBabylonian Sumeria based their religion on was probably stories of these contacts, and when they finally put them to tablets in cuneiform it was already based on ancient stories that were passed down hundreds possibly even thousands of years from way before Sumeria was even founded and if that was in fact the case how would the early founders picture such creatures.

and I think you see all these early descriptions from all over the world not just in Sumeria







[edit on 2-1-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Here are some Sumerian gods

A flying god



Fish god with flying god




and god only knows what this is supposed to be.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
How real are you when you plant a seed...

In sixth or seventh grade Biology class, they gave us a bean seed, and the assignment was to put it in a test tube with moist cotton. I remember it was winter but the room was warm, the cotton was moist and the bean seed started to grow and I could see the progress trough the glass. The poor bean sprout had no choice but to grow and I knew it had to be discarded after the assignment.

Life has no choice but to happen when conditions are right. And not so right as evident by the gross genetic anomalies in humans.

Found this interesting video on YouTube:

WARNING! Not for kids or the faint of heart

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x4_57Rd8Jw

[edit on 7-1-2009 by tungus]

Originally posted by tungus
Perhaps I didn't express my opinion on the matter. I believe that superior species at some point in this planet's history came here and genetically altered the existing primates to create what is now humans.
So, that would make them "aliens" and if they came here on spaceships that would be filed under "UFO". Hence, this forum.

I was pointing out in a conversation that the Sumerians thought that their gods were real, like physically real, and the reason for the existence of the "Blackheads" aka the "Sumerians" is that the gods needed workers to attend their gardens. I forget now where I read that...

Zecharia Sitchin, "The Twelfth Planet" to start with.

Followed by a slew of other steaming piles of non-facts, mischaracterizations and outright lies this man has sold as an author.

It wasn't gardens, it was to mine gold.

According to this money-grubbing cash cow fantasy, aliens came all the way to Earth to get gold, which is available elswhere by the bucketload.

They worked the mines themselves, by hand, for a few centuries before they got tired of working and created humans through genetically manipulating H. Erectus.

Then they made the humans dig by hand.

Too bad that even though they could cross space, they couldn't figure out how to build a backhoe.

It's a load of crap that Sitchin basically made up out of thin air while calmly claiming that his economics degree made him the foremost translator of Sumerian cuneiform writing on Earth - all the while refusing to demonstrate his prowess at reading cuneiform and translating Sumerian into English.

No such stories exist in the mythos of the Sumerians.

Originally posted by WatchNLearn
There are quite a few, so here are a couple:

Tuatha de Danna were the ancient inhabitants of Ireland. The Celts believed they were flesh and blood.

The ancient Greeks believed their gods (Applo etc.) were flesh and blood but lived in the sky.

Indians (Asian) believe Gautama Buddha was man that they now venerate as a god.

As I said there are others, but these are probably the best known.

What an oversight!

Ever heard of Jebus?

Originally posted by undo
people tend to ignore the ancient hindu texts.
i suggest reading the mahabharata, as they indicate
the same things the sumerians, hebrews and christians do.

Okay, undo, you no doubt didn't expect to see me in this forum, but you know me, I gotta hear this.

Exactly WTF are you talking about here?

In what way are the Vedas even remotely similar to the Mesopotamiain and Judeo-Christian mythologies?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


mt. meru = mt. sumeru. mt. sumeru = the holy mountains (ziggurats and pyramids) of sumer, egypt and india.
epic of gilgamesh, enuma elish, book of revelation = scorpion men (beings with more than one set of arms who are god like in power) (see also, king scorpion, founder of dynastic egypt).

there's more. just gotta unplug your brain from modern texts on the subject, and plug in to the actual texts and artfiacts

and what was your statement that i wasn't expecting to find you here supposed to mean ? i've talked to and debated various subjects with various people other than you for the last 2 years. in fact, i don't even remember what our last conversation was about. you might be overstating your importance in the day in, day out thoughts that wander threw ye olde noggin.


[edit on 7-1-2009 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Harte

 

mt. meru = mt. sumeru. mt. sumeru = the holy mountains (ziggurats and pyramids) of sumer, egypt and india.

The earliest ideas of "heaven" (where gods dwell) all involve mountaintops.

I don't see how that relates.

Originally posted by undoepic of gilgamesh, enuma elish, book of revelation = scorpion men (beings with more than one set of arms who are god like in power) (see also, king scorpion, founder of dynastic egypt).

The scorpion men - sons of Tiamat, only had two arms. Not related at all to any multi-armed gods.
We do not know the name of "King Scorpion."
We gave him that name ourselves.

Not related.

Originally posted by undothere's more. just gotta unplug your brain from modern texts on the subject, and plug in to the actual texts and artfiacts

You have to "unplug your brain from" more than "modern texts" to arrive at these connections.

Originally posted by undoand what was your statement that i wasn't expecting to find you here supposed to mean ? i've talked to and debated various subjects with various people other than you for the last 2 years. in fact, i don't even remember what our last conversation was about. you might be overstating your importance in the day in, day out thoughts that wander threw ye olde noggin.

Yeah, it's been a while alright. But we've had a few go-arounds as I recall. Just not in the UFO section.

I don't assume that anything I do here has any importance to anyone, other than myself, that is.

Harte

Originally posted by undo
epic of gilgamesh, enuma elish, book of revelation = scorpion men (beings with more than one set of arms who are god like in power) (see also, king scorpion, founder of dynastic egypt).

The Scorpion Men of Sumerian myth only had two arms. Here is a picture of a relief depecting a Scorpion Man. As you can see, it only has two arms.

There are no "scorpion men" in the Book of Revelations, not like what is depicted in Mesopotamian mythology. The only reference to scorpions is in Chapter Nine, describing the locusts as being like scorpions.

It is no surprise that the Epic of Gilgamesh and Enuma Elish would make reference to the same monsters as they are from the same related mythology.

Originally posted by undo
there's more. just gotta unplug your brain from modern texts on the subject, and plug in to the actual texts and artfiacts

The problem here is that you are plugged into modern texts (Sitchin, Daniken, etc) looking at ancient texts and artifacts in from a modern prospective.

Our cultures express the divine in different ways trying to personify that which cannot be

then forgetting the symbolism believe that their images are inherently real

it is this belief which unites religions on a base level and makes athesits say "show me God and I will believe."

this limited definition of God in the minds of the non believer prevents them from seeing the true creative power of the Universe

If you say God is the creator

and I say the Universe is creative

You cannot deny God's existence, inseparable from the All that is

[The problem here is that you are plugged into modern texts (Sitchin, Daniken, etc) looking at ancient texts and artifacts in from a modern prospective.

Let's look at this portion of the Hindu "myth":

In the heavens, the gods daily read the Vedas to find the secrets of remaining young always but now, with the Vedas gone, they started growing old and lost all their strength. Durgam launched an attack on the gods and took Indra, Agni, Kuber, Varun and Yamraj into captivity. With Indra and Varun in captivity, the environment underwent a change—the wind stopped blowing; there were no rains; famine and drought occurred everywhere.

source

Sounds like Al Gore's global warming, doesn't it? So what is one to make of the mention that the gods for some reason got old and lost their power? And how come we all know that Superman is a fictional character, even though we have pictorial and film evidence, but the ancients, who presumably had never seen a god (since they were all mythical), nearly all thought the gods existed and fought battles?

Originally posted by tungus
Sounds like Al Gore's global warming, doesn't it? So what is one to make of the mention that the gods for some reason got old and lost their power?

Or just a drought. They do happen.

But I am not sure of the point you are driving at. Nor am I sure what Superman has to do with the above.

Originally posted by tungus
And how come we all know that Superman is a fictional character, even though we have pictorial and film evidence, but the ancients, who presumably had never seen a god (since they were all mythical), nearly all thought the gods existed and fought battles?

Because Superman has never been advertised to us as a real, breathing person. Superman has never been used as an explanation behind things we do not understand in the world. It has always been explicit that he is fictional. Such is not the case with these gods; gods were supposed to explain the ways of the world, they were supposed to be real.

Because Superman has never been advertised to us as a real, breathing person. Superman has never been used as an explanation behind things we do not understand in the world. It has always been explicit that he is fictional. Such is not the case with these gods; gods were supposed to explain the ways of the world, they were supposed to be real.

So, generations upon generations believed in something that could not be seen, touched, or directly interacted with but used in explaining the world?
Alright, so the ancients were never really told that Santa Clause doesn't exist. Judging by how many people believe in the Bible, the Koran and the rest without ever seeing the god(s) this position is not without merit. However, those kind of people hardly possess the mind capacity for building or even maintaining a civilization (think Mennonites -their technology is at the level when they formed their religion). This kind of folk is hardly a candidate for starting a civilization fresh out of the stone age with no precursor. Sitchin or not, the fact remains that the Sumerian civilization was a sudden and complete-- they had astronomy, pharmacy, civil judicial system etc. right out of the blue. (pun intended-- right out of the blue, get it?) And the Egyptians... to this day no one has built a pyramid like the great ones at Giza, nor do we know what they were using them for to begin with. It is laughable to watch various egyptologists on the Discovery channel trying to convince the public that the ancient Egyptian farmers built the pyramids with hot air balloons, copper saws and what not. Oh, and they did it for tax breaks! I'm not kidding, that's what they said. One was even offended that people would suggest that her ancestors did not build the pyramids. Like someone said, you could gather all the farmers in the world today, and still won't be able to build the pyramids.
And yet, when all these ancient civilizations state that all the knowledge was given to them by the gods and that they themselves were created by the gods (the Sumerians) this portion immediately gets filed under "Myth" of simple folk who couldn't figure out that the world was round but built elaborate astronomical observatories. And they were obsessed with the stars not to know when the gods were coming and going but for farming, I see. It all make sense. (pause) Not! (__Borat_ )


[edit on 8-1-2009 by tungus]

Originally posted by tungus
the fact remains that the Sumerian civilization was a sudden and complete-- they had astronomy, pharmacy, civil judicial system etc. right out of the blue.

Sumerian and other ancient civilizations did not form full and complete from nothingness. While in some respects it may appear that way, we know it took hundreds of years and generations to build their civilization.

Originally posted by tungus
simple folk who couldn't figure out that the world was round but built elaborate astronomical observatories.

Consider the position of the ancients. It was far easier for them to observe the movements of the stars and planets, and less so for them to determine the shape of the world (though they did, in many cases).

I am sure you also take the story of Romulus at face value, don't you?

Originally posted by tungus
Let's look at this portion of the Hindu "myth":

In the heavens, the gods daily read the Vedas to find the secrets of remaining young always but now, with the Vedas gone, they started growing old and lost all their strength. Durgam launched an attack on the gods and took Indra, Agni, Kuber, Varun and Yamraj into captivity. With Indra and Varun in captivity, the environment underwent a change—the wind stopped blowing; there were no rains; famine and drought occurred everywhere.

source

Sounds like Al Gore's global warming, doesn't it? So what is one to make of the mention that the gods for some reason got old and lost their power?

I hope you won't mind my pointing out that your own link states that the above story you quoted from was written in 2008.

Maybe that's why it sounds like Gore!

Find this tale in a real Vedic work, then we'll talk, okay?

Originally posted by tungus
Sitchin or not, the fact remains that the Sumerian civilization was a sudden and complete-- they had astronomy, pharmacy, civil judicial system etc. right out of the blue. (pun intended-- right out of the blue, get it?)

This is not even true.

While even stone-age tribesmen "had astronomy" (see Stonehenge,) where did you get that the Sumerians had pharmacy and a judicial system from the get-go?

You should be aware that the establishment of social constructs, like judicial systems and the like, are one of the hallmarks of civilization.

IOW, that's one of the reasons (there are many, and differing, requirements) why we call them a "civilization."

Where is your evidence that, for example, the Ubaid people that lived in Mesopotamia before the Sumerians didn't have any judicial system?

Originally posted by tungus
And the Egyptians... to this day no one has built a pyramid like the great ones at Giza, nor do we know what they were using them for to begin with. It is laughable to watch various egyptologists on the Discovery channel trying to convince the public that the ancient Egyptian farmers built the pyramids with hot air balloons, copper saws and what not.

So, the copper saws left behind by the Egyptians were just to throw us off?

Those crazy Egyptians! Always joking around!

Originally posted by tungusOh, and they did it for tax breaks! I'm not kidding, that's what they said. One was even offended that people would suggest that her ancestors did not build the pyramids.

We know that the Egyptians built the Great Pyramid. This is not in question. In fact, it's proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

Painted on hieroglyphics on stones in previously sealed chambers attest to this fact. Some of the hieroglyphs can be seen extending back into gaps between the stones. Gaps too small and painted on too far back for anyone to have put them there except for before the stones were placed.

Originally posted by tungus Like someone said, you could gather all the farmers in the world today, and still won't be able to build the pyramids.

The fact that someone says something doesn't make it true.

Another indisputable fact is that Sneferu's red pyramid, comparable in size to the Great Pyramid (though smaller,) was built in about 17 years.
Source

Originally posted by tungus
And yet, when all these ancient civilizations state that all the knowledge was given to them by the gods and that they themselves were created by the gods (the Sumerians)

The vast majority of the Earth's population still maintain this. I suppose that means there must be something to it?

Originally posted by tungusthis portion immediately gets filed under "Myth" of simple folk who couldn't figure out that the world was round but built elaborate astronomical observatories.

Just how elaborate do you think these observatories were?

Originally posted by tungus And they were obsessed with the stars not to know when the gods were coming and going but for farming, I see. It all make sense. (pause) Not! (__Borat

_ )

To many ancient societies, the stars were the gods. Also, the changing seasons were brought by the gods.

The Sumerians used the stars for far more than farming. I suggest you do some reading about their astrology. It is our astrology, you know.

Harte

Consider the position of the ancients. It was far easier for them to observe the movements of the stars and planets, and less so for them to determine the shape of the world (though they did, in many cases).

It is possible to determine with precision the movement of the stars from earth as a reference without having to know the shape of the planet, but only to a point. It is very difficult to observe the precession of the Equinox for example, since it moves only one degree (about the width of a toothpick against the horizon) every 72 years. (I wonder if that's where they get their 72 virgins, the Arabs were good astronomers before the Muslim conquest). It is not impossible but hard, since the projected lifetime of humans was around 55 years. It becomes very hard to imagine that the galactic years and such would be observable without instruments or tables of some sort. Indeed, the Sumerians had such tables. But the question remains, why would farmers need to know such incredible lengths of time? I knew plenty of farmers in my past, none of them cared much about astronomy. Although, I must admit the subject never came up. They knew farming, but I doubt that they had any use for astronomy.
Why turn to farming in the first place? Did someone wake up one day 13,000 years ago and said, "hey, why not start cultivating these hard coarse seeds? Of course, this will bring no food to my family in my lifetime, but one day it shall be known as corn, but it will take a long time, unless I magically am able to increase the number of chromosomes. And how about these ferocious buffaloes, if I engage in selective breeding and after many years I may be able to tone down the aggression. If I can only convince my grand-grand children to continue my work, again with no immediate benefit. Now I will need a cow in the wild which has the right genetic mutation that makes her lactate all her life, and I shall have milk."
The life of a hunter-gatherer is relatively easier-- you don't have to work to death. A lot of people to this day prefer nomadic lifestyle to farming. Farming is needed when you need surplus of food for, say, gods.

I am sure you also take the story of Romulus at face value, don't you?

Weren't Romulus and Remus the kids of the priestess Rhea whose father was, um, the god Mars? Dang, those mythological gods again!

But I suppose the "face value" refers to the legend that they were brought up by a she-wolf in the wild, rather than who their father was. Sure I take it at face value, the prostitutes were also referred to as "she-wolves" at that time. So, it is possible that the children were brought up by a she-wolf. Nowadays we might say that they grew up in a cat house, brought up by a... cat woman? Yeah baby! (Austin Powers impression)


[edit on 8-1-2009 by tungus]

where did you get that the Sumerians had pharmacy and a judicial system from the get-go?

From "History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine Firsts in Recorded History" by Samuel Noah Kramer. Just go through the table of contents.

Where is your evidence that, for example, the Ubaid people that lived in Mesopotamia before the Sumerians didn't have any judicial system?

You got me, I can't prove a negative. For example, I can't prove that I don't have a million dollars, because ... I don't have a million dollars.

So, the copper saws left behind by the Egyptians were just to throw us off?

No, they just didn't tell us in all the
records how they cut the granite blocks with copper saws, since granite is almost as hard as diamond.

Another indisputable fact is that Sneferu's red pyramid, comparable in size to the Great Pyramid (though smaller,) was built in about 17 years.

One look at this pyramid is enough to see that it it is nothing like the Great pyramid. Sneferu was trying to copy something he had no idea how to do. This would be analogous to after being able to build the B-2 stealth bomber, we can't build a Cesna-150. It doesn't make sense.

To many ancient societies, the stars were the gods. Also, the changing seasons were brought by the gods.

How the stars would need food and shelter (temples, or "house of god") is beyond me. Anyone could see that the stars were still in the sky, whether there were offerings or not. I'm sure someone must have missed an offering now and again.






[edit on 8-1-2009 by tungus]

Your whole argument boils down to, "I don't understand why, because I live in a modern-culture used to instant gratification, thinking in minutes instead of years, so aliens just had to be involved!"

I think you have studied very little of our ancient forebears. And no, books about alien astronauts is not a viable substitute.

Originally posted by tungus
But I suppose the "face value" refers to the legend that they were brought up by a she-wolf in the wild, rather than who their father was. Sure I take it at face value, the prostitutes were also referred to as "she-wolves" at that time. So, it is possible that the children were brought up by a she-wolf.

Hang on a second. You are admitting that a story in mythology may be an allegory for something else. Now why do you take some stories at face-value (Gods gave us knowledge, that must mean it was aliens!) and others as allegory? Where do you draw the line?

Now why do you take some stories at face-value (Gods gave us knowledge, that must mean it was aliens!) and others as allegory? Where do you draw the line?

When allegories are told it is because people's mental capacity isn't up to the meat of the story. For example, one can't really tell kids that the Little Red Riding Hood story is a tale about sexual predators but an adult should have no problem figuring out the message. For those who can't figure this out click here.
Romulus being raised by a she-wolf makes sense if the word "she-wolf" has another meaning and indeed it has. Gods being stars makes sense to a point but when the stars begin to turn into humanoids who need food offerings, shelter (or "houses of god"), teaching humans wisdom and so on, that makes no sense. If this were true, all we have to do is stay late up at night and hope to get hit by a mild gamma ray from a star and turn into uber-humans . Because, apparently that's how we turned from primates to humans (or super-primates) if we follow this logic. And let's not forget the platypus who has the genes of a mammal, reptile and a bird. Boy, they must have baked under the stars a lot. I believe the word they used is "cobbled-together". I'm not sure but according to this picture, the snake I guess was eaten by the chicken who was in turn eaten by the gorilla with the baby. It is not clear when the gamma ray burst occurred but somehow we have a platypus. That was easy. This is from a scientific article, and makes just as much sense as the mythological gods of the past.

What I am amazed is how our modern mind skips right over any ancient reference to god and goes right to the allegorical. As if by some genetic filter or something. Amazing!


[edit on 9-1-2009 by tungus]

Originally posted by tungus
Gods being stars makes sense to a point but then the stars turning into humanoids who need food offerings, shelter (or "houses of god"), teaching humans wisdom and so on makes no sense.

What I am amazed is how our modern mind skips right over any ancient reference to god and goes right to the allegorical. As if by some genetic filter or something. Amazing!

Much like your mind has skipped over the fact that your aliens as gods theory makes no sense for the very points you brought up. Why would aliens from wherever, capable of traveling from one world to the next, need humans to provide them food or shelter?

That idea is beyond ridiculous and can only be described as stupid.