Israel demands monitors as part of a Gaza truce, page 3

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reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 01:06 PM by Terapin

I wonder... Will they monitor the removal of illegal Israeli settlements? Will they monitor and allow food and medical shipments that are currently denied by Israel? Will they monitor and allow foreign journalists free and open access, something which Israel currently prevents? Will they monitor the right of return?

Jews fought for compensation for land and property that was taken from them by force during WWII, yet these same people refuse any talk of compensation to the people who had their property in Palestine taken from them by force. Hypocrisy?

Calling for a group to monitor Palestine is a self serving sham. We need to observe Israel and it's actions as well. Israel violates international law with impunity, and until the playing field is level then there will never be any hope for a lasting peace.

Think about it, I come to your house and kick you out. I take the house for my own and force you to live in the back yard. Oh, and I slash and burn the back yard so it isn't such a nice place to live and i keep the best parts of the yard for myself. You get no say in the matter, no economic opportunity, and if you dare to fight for your rights I will use a much bigger stick. Just for fun, I will poke you with a stick now and then, cause I can. I now ask for an outside group to monitor/control your activities while I sit happy in your home. Yeah, that sounds fair.

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 01:17 PM by dooper

reply to post by Terapin

I have another analogy. We fought for it, and I won. It's my property. You shoot from across the street. I will tell you to knock it off, and the next time you shoot, I come after you.

It's still my property. I don't have to allow folks to cut across my property to get to you. They can use the other border.

If the other border is closed, then go cry somewhere else.

Or, take your ass down the road somewhere else. And by the way, keep having kids if you're so crowded.

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 01:37 PM by Terapin

reply to post by dooper

Yet Jews still continue to fight for compensation from the effects of WWII. Why is it not fair to compensate Palestinians? Yet Israel continues to violate international law by allowing illegal settlements in land that does not belong to them. The occupied territories do not belong to Israel according to international law. Why wont Israel allow foreign journalists free and open access if they are doing nothing wrong? Why does Israel limit the amount of food that gets into palestine? You can not make the argument that it is to prevent weapons from getting in to Palestine as all food shipments are inspected. Why did the Israelis deliberately target ATM machines when they entered Ramallah? Are ATMs really secret robots that attack Israel at night??? Is deliberately destabilizing an all ready difficult economy an accepted international policy that causes no harm to civilians? Israel has an established policy of targeting civilians, Is that OK. They even went so far as to enact a policy to deliberately break the arms of any child that threw stones at an Israeli. International outrage caused Israel to reluctantly end the practice yet it clearly demonstrates the level of civility in the Israeli government.

By your logic, it would be perfectly OK for the Arab nations to get together and Napalm every Israeli man, woman, and child to death and then take the land back. That would be fine I guess by your account.

Peace will only come about when BOTH sides are held accountable. Israel must remove all illegal settlements. They have promised to do so several times, yet not only have failed to do so, they continue to build more. Palestinians must be allowed sovereignty and economic freedom. Israel must end it's violations of the geneva conventions and uphold basic human rights. So long as Israel continues to poke Palestinians with a stick, they will never know peace. Both sides need to be monitored, not just Palestinians.

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 02:22 PM by noangels

reply to post by Taikonaut

Thanks for the info and the photo of Tom Hurndall,He does indeed stick out like a sore thumb wearing that top!

I think the IDF sniper might need a new scope,but more than likely the trigger happy brain washed gods child(Yawn)did it for fun

Anyway I had to log in and gave you and a few others here stars as the Zionists that flock here are taking over(very amusing!)

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 02:28 PM by jam321

Are these going to be the same kind of monitors who get to stand there, watch Hamas load a rocket and fire it? They have them kind of monitors in Africa and the monitors haven't stopped the violence because they can't intervene. I say make Gaza a territory of Jordan or Egypt and let either of those countries send in their troops to take care of things. Since they recognize Israel, they can help the Palestinians and Israel find peace. I am sure if Hamas wants to act up that the Jordanian or Egyptian troops will take care of it quickly.

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 02:29 PM by Taikonaut

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by Taikonaut

How do you know when the pic was taken?

Because it's what Hamas tells you?

No...because multiple sources all tell the same story and the incident was caught on camera (the image previously posted ) by an accredited member of the Associated Press

Israeli soldier shoots British ISM activist Tom Hurndall in Gaza

Press Release, International Solidarity Movement, 11 April 2003

Between 4:30 and 5:00 PM today Israeli snipers shot another ISM activist in the head. Tom Hurndall from Manchester Britain is currently in critical condition in a helicopter on his way from Europa Hospital in Khan Younis to a hospital in Bir Sheva.
He is 22 years old.

photo credits (and caption relating to incident):

A British peace activist going only by the name Alice cries for help as she holds her hand over the headwound of British peace activist Thomas Hurndall, who had been shot in the head moments earlier, at the start of a protest, in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Friday, April 11, 2003. Hurndall, age 21, from Machester, England, had been standing between Israeli troops and Palestinian children when Israeli soldiers opened fire, according to a fellow activist from the International Solidarity Movement who witnessed the scene.(AP Photo/Khalil Hamra)

Originally posted by dooper
This reporter was a dumbass.

He had no business being there to start with. When there's a history of trouble and shooting, and you put yourself out in the middle, you are just begging to get killed.

Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie had EVERY right to be there, documenting the atrocities meted out by the IDF, and showing the world just what was going on...they and those who still choose to do what they can to help the palestinian civilians by independantly monitoring what was/is happening

They and their collegues have more guts than me, you, and the vast majority of anyone else here on ATS

So he runs out. The Israeli shooter is not a damned mind reader. He is looking for dashing targets. The fact that he hit a moving target inidicates a shooter of great skill.

from an eyewitness:

Tom was in plain view of the sniper towers and was wearing a bright orange fluorescent jacket with reflective stripes...

Tom saw a little boy in an open space, clearly visible to the tower. Tom went to get him out of the way. He looked back and saw two more girls whom he also went to retrieve. As he went to get them, he was shot in the back of the head

he was crouching down and stationary, not running, he was wearing a dayglo orange jacket with reflective stripes, not military-type garb, he was unarmed and had been in plain view of the tower guards, not a hit+run gun-toting balaclava'd militiaman

Not only was he unarmed when he was murdered, but shot from behind

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 02:47 PM by Gregarious

Originally posted by alyosha1981
reply to post by pluckynoonez

well here's the problem with that, not all of the human beings killed over there were/are terrorists, some of the dead included civillian women and children, should they in your opinion deserve(d) to die? www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit to add.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by alyosha1981]

OK, so lets look at this. Your MOTHER is a terrorist, and the people she is attacking kill her. Do you hate your mother and all your family and friends for being the bad people they are, or do you side with your family and society, hating the evil victims of your mother and her gang? Oh yes, for sure you have come to the correct and just conclusions!

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 02:52 PM by noangels

Hopefully the UN will send in French forces to monitor the actions going on in Gaza.At least they know how to deal with Israeli F15s after the close calls they had with them in Lebanon recently

I spose Iran could also offer to send troops there to keep the peace

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 03:02 PM by Taikonaut

Whichever nation/s are mandated to act as impartial monitors, they will need an extension of powers.

Primarily the UN monitors should be equipped with ground-to-air and offensive armoured units, and be granted the power to excercise the right to use military force should either side break the ceasefire with weapons.

Also, humanitarian aid convoys should deliver food and medical aid no matter what the objections of the IDF...if they choose to block the port at Gaza, or try to block access to road or air supply, then the gloves come off and force of arms be used

The only reason that Israel has defied the many many UN resolutions is because they know that no force of arms will be applied...same goes for Hamas...and that needs to be amended in the UN charter NOW!

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 03:48 PM by Taikonaut

What would be the ideal solution to the creation of a homeland for the flegeling palestinian state?

The two-enclave entities of Gaza and the West Bank separated by walls, border points and guards needs to be abolished as nothing meaningful will ever come about if that geographic apartheid is maintained..

Isreal has refused to deal with the Palestinian Authority directly, whilst Egypt and Turkey have suspended peace negotiations between the two parties.

Perhaps if the State of Gaza were to remain and expand its territory laterally Eastward along the Egyptian border (currently held by Israel) in exchange for the West Bank and Egypt be given the UN-backed and financed role of care and guidance of the flegeling state there may be some hope there

But when you consider that almost 50% of the population of Gaza is under the age of 15 and have known only conflict and deprivation at the hands of the Isreali state, there needs to be a settlement where those young minds can have at least some chance to heal, grow, and look forward to an autonomous future and know a place that can be definatively be called 'Palestine' and 'Home'

reply posted on 1-1-2009 @ 04:46 PM by Taikonaut

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
There also need to be some guartentee that someone will stop Iran from supplying and Hamas from using mortars and rockets.

There also needs to be guarantees that someone will stop the US from supplying Israel with arms and the IDF from starving, bombing, torturing and emasculating the Palestinians

...touche

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 12:29 AM by alyosha1981

all things given, it is clearly and act of terrorism when any side kills non-combatants on porpus, any body can tell that that man was wearing a highly visible vest in order to stand out as a non fighting participant, it's not like he was a combatant firing out of and ambulance or something of the like.In every conflict there has been some kind of non fighting personell activity, thery are not idiots they simply feel compelled to play that role in the conflict.

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 01:21 AM by DEEZNUTZ

The Ideal solution is to stop all the BS and solve the real problems. Give the Palestinians food, water, medicine and shelter. I bet the rockets would stop coming. Quit the Mossad assassinations, kidnappings, torture of anyone they view as suspicious.

Give the Palestinian people a real chance to rebuild their shattered country, rebuild an economy so people have jobs, money to feed their families, put a roof over their heads, put them through school,etc,etc. Let them feel like human beings again. Let them restore their sense of Pride from within. Once they feel like normal people again(always living in a state of conflict like they have must be unimaginable).

This sounds like a rant against Israel, I don't intend it to be like that. I'm simply pointing out that Israels current policy of blockade and restriction isn't working to break the will of the people and start a civil war against HAMAS. I think that's been the objective all along. However, as history has proven that hasn't worked too well.

It's a pattern of peace, then poke the "BEEHIVE" and start swatting at the bees that buzz around. Israeal responds to rocket attacks by leveling GAZA back to the stoneage. They do it everytime. The response is disproportionate to the attack. It takes a strong person to show withstraint when they are capable of more. Israel needs to be the bigger person here and show mercy and do what's right. Honour the land claim settlements as under Int'l Law. Allow convoys of food and medical supplies as well as more international aid organizations.

UN Inspectors on both sides and orders to detain or kill any forces violating the ceasefire. I'd say the Japanese might be a good pick. They are honorable people and would do it the most impartially.

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 01:40 AM by alyosha1981

reply to post by DEEZNUTZ

Well I deffinatly agree with everything you stated, I think it's one of those easyer said then done things, albeit the Israelis arn't showing much compassion for the civillians involved and as far as allowing food into Gaza and supplies for them to build a decent economy with they should be allowed those things and I agree I think the rocket attacks would stop.

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 01:52 AM by whoshotJR

I'm sorry the guy got shot but, he is a moron. Even if I wore a bright colored vest and played on the freeway eventually I would get hit. Just because your not the "bad" guy and are wearing a vest doesn't mean you can wander in a war zone and play hero.

People need to realize that in war people dress up in many different ways and kill each other. They will take a woman and strap bombs under her garments and have her smile as she kills you and your friends. These guys are under such high amounts of stress and have less then a second to decide if somebody is good or bad. If they decide wrong they are the ones dead.

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 01:52 AM by johnsky

I just heard on BBC that Israel has declared there is "No humanitarian crisis in Gaza" and hence "No international Aid will be permitted to enter Gaza strip."
"There will be no ceasefire".

Wow... do they really expect us to believe that a country that's not permitted to trade openly, nor it's people allowed to leave, is just fine and managing to support themselves?!

BS.

I'm starting to worry if Hamas is really their target. Poor civilians... any leaders with moral decency would be desperately trying to get the civilians OUT.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by johnsky]

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 01:56 AM by whoshotJR

reply to post by johnsky

And how are you going to tell who your letting out is a hamas militant who is trying to get more supply's or is trying to flee vs a average Joe in the wrong place at the wrong time?

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 02:18 AM by johnsky

reply to post by whoshotJR

That's not up to me to decide, I'm not a government leader now am I?

But, assuming they wouldn't be able to get back in, it would be pretty foolish for a Hamas Militant to try to get out to obtain supplies, as the country is surrounded and it would be impossible to get those supplies back in.

If a Hamas Militant wants to be stuck out of the fight, then that's one less militant to worry about fighting isn't it?

Either way, I was just checking sources, and it looks like Russia attempting just that, they intend on persuading Israel to allow them to take as many civilians as they can feasibly get out of Gaza, and onto awaiting Russian aircraft stationed in Jordan, to be taken to Russia as refugees.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by johnsky]

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 02:42 AM by alyosha1981

reply to post by johnsky

Well at least somebody cares about the civillians, unlike Israel's genocide plan, Block then in, starve them, allow no outside help, wonder what will happen to all of those people?

reply posted on 2-1-2009 @ 06:58 PM by Taikonaut

Originally posted by whoshotJR
I'm sorry the guy got shot but, he is a moron.

Those folks from the International Solidarity Movement have one thing in truckloads...brass balls!

He, Rachel, and numerous others gave their lives to defend innocent civilains from the brutality of the IDF, stood their ground on behalf of an abused people, showed the world just what was happening...and you call them morons?

These guys are under such high amounts of stress and have less then a second to decide if somebody is good or bad. If they decide wrong they are the ones dead.

Tom Hurndall had been in plain sight of the watchtowers for a long period of time, taking photographs and wearing high-vis gear...no 'less than a second' fleeting figure though a snipers scope

I'm sure it must be a stressful job...aiming and firing on a group of young children playing innocently