Originally posted by southern_Guardian
I love it when folk come out with these posts
Really? If not for the fact that you seem so fond of your own opinions it wouldn't surprise me if after they ever approve same sex marriage, you are
the first in line arguing your equal rights have been violated not being able to marry yourself.
Or,, it could be that you are just a masochist wanting to soak up so much of the fermented fruit of the humble pie I will serve you like some kind of
emotional tampon because I have looked at the Obama arguments and as sure as I know I am sitting here sharing a seat with my butt, you will lose this
Now, I know you are sitting there, where you are, high fiving yourself in some disturbing act of self congratulatory release while the sounds of your
own thoughts are playing like a medieval love song like some gothic pianist masturbating his cerebral piano effecting some bio chemical quasi
spiritual epiphany in an almost autoerotic crescendo reaching Richter scale intensity.
Albeit true, all that I have just said seems a little over the top as an average response to one silly little opening quote but I am not responding to
just anyone, I am responding to (drum roll) Southern Guardian who starts his post using numerous logical fallacies that I will not only exploit but
explain as I run into them.
Why would I even THINK I can argue with southern_guardian!
So many have given so much praise for his ability to destroy arguments with his superior critical thinking skills. Well,, Ill tell you why, I think
you are so deserving of a lesson that should, if not for your own denial, leave you choking on the dust of your own regrets, the lesson that for posts
like yours so rife with condescending overtones of your assumed superior grasp of not only this topic, but us Lilliputian obama detractors.
I save my best for someone like you.
Not that they require my most articulate expressions of logic in an expanded latitude of creative license but simply that it is poetic justice the
quality of humility be pushed over the cliff in humorous humiliation because as much as you like the folks that come out with posts like mine,,
I love it when people like YOU,,,
Take the bait.
No southern, I am not hiding behind sarcasm but thanks for showing us the fallacious supposition or logical fallacy that goes:
Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition, The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not
even been asked, much less answered.
you just are just loving the red herring for derailment on the morality about abortion argument or am I mistaken?
Do you know how off topic this would get? If no one else minds, the thread seems to have played itself out so begging the mods permission, Ill try to
make this as worthy of your attention if not your stinging reprisal.
I do have one caveat albeit not very enforceable by me but If this is a bait ploy to get me to put a lot of work into a a post just to have it removed
for being off topic, I would only hope you get hit for political baiting also southern_guard.
So without further delay and thanking the Mods in advance for the extended courtesy, Ill be starting with your first jab with all that other "stuff"
you wrote that comes after,,
Shall we dance girlfriend? Ill lead, as your first sonata was out of key, all left feet and off the beat.
The ad-hoc presumptuous idea my opinion on abortion has anything to do with babies, babies born, alive, outside of the womb or that I
don't know the difference between a fetus and a survivor of a failed abortion where the result was,,
A Baby American is out side of the womb and struggling for life!
The following is an explanation and not an argument so having survived the unimaginable prospect of being discarded by its own mother, the majority of
whom have a conscience going through with this, not unlike a Parent would have flushing a goldfish down the toilet.
Sorry guy,, their is a difference between you and I about our ideas on morality moreover our ethical standards of what is merely neglect and what is
criminal negligence that you cite as negligible in contrast to all those who have relativist truth hence we meet logical fallacy number three.
Claim X is presented.
Person A asserts that X may be true for you but is not true for him/her. Therefore A is justified in rejecting X.
relativism is the view that truth is relative to Z (a person, time, culture, place, etc.). This is not the view that claims will be true at different
times or of different people, but the view that a claim could be true for one person and false for another at the same time.
Ill elaborate the difference where your nonchalant, cavalier lack of compassion gets disguised, all gussied up in a self aggrandizing opinion of
yourself and your Godless so called progressive worldview where words like baby and fetus and sperm were all used to portray me in a sublime to
ridiculous example of variable truths when the FACT is a baby born alive a human being alive and innocent helpless and without representation.
I think I know the difference between sperm and a baby, alive outside of the womb.
Their are no gray lines when it comes to this and those Doctors and the politics that enable them to participate in a clear act of infanticide, are
alive, merely because the same laws that should be activated upon that Childs birth affording them all the equal rights we enjoy including police
protection, make it illegal to kill those same Doctors by,, ohh I dunno, perhaps blowing up what has become Americas answer to the German death camps,
or "Abortion Killinics"
These babies are as deserving of all the protections and equal rights as any living American, unwanted or not but I see more people complaining their
rights to marry someone as twisted in their morality and sexual identity as they are, getting more of a political voice then those whose voice knows
no language yet but the gut wrenching cries of unimaginable fear and certain death Guaranteed by only one proponent of such draconian measures in
senatorial legislation and legalese. Only ONE in the entire senate and that one proponent was none other than barack insane obama.
We euthanasia DOGS in a more humane atmosphere with more comfort afforded these victims of an ever eroding moral conscience fostered by the darwinian
dimwits of the public school system in their desperate act to remove the last Bastian of hope. They are a people who would act more like they have
an interest in the survival of the fittest and our species, than those atheists who subscribe to the ever lying illusion of evolution.
Who would they be?
Yeah,, Christians, that's who.
Now I am probably one of the worst examples of what a Christian is or supposed to be. All I know is I am never "Christian" enough for other
Christians approval and refuse to live up to anyone else's Idea of the "Christian" reputation. I rarely use expletives and only turn the other
cheek once in any kind of confrontation or altercation.
After that, I use uninhibited imagination, relentless creativity and competitive intelligence and if need be, Ill carry.
I seek no mans approval but what the lord has for me so in other words, if you don't like that I believe in something that to even begin to
understand takes the very courage of opening yourself up to ridicule being the target of jokes stares and hostility but most of us know that is part
of the territory.
When accepting the lord and not long after, if it is genuine, your faith becomes intertwined in so much in so many ways, it is like a slowly evolving
new or 6th sense is developing. I can't begin to articulate the experience but all those who have made the conscious decision to accept the lord,
knows what I am talking about.
Being an atheist is easy, I used to be one.
Being a Christian is the hardest thing you'll ever do but is the smartest thing I could have ever done in this life. Having said that, I hope this
doesn't break down into such degrading exercises so typical of Atheist VS Christian dialogue where one wastes his time comparing sky fairies to what
is living inside me.
Those humanist materialist secularists are so close to having their way they are within smelling distance to the grand prize.
A Stalinist like state religion and a national healthcare plan cheaper than we all thought because it is bankrolled by the budget cuts in care and
re-invested in the repugnant socialized medicine of eugenics and euthanasia, while at the same time Gay rights for sex that is not procreative in
anyway gets more grease to the squeak in the wheel than those who are innocent and dying in what is a sure case of age discrimination negligence,
Now the abortion industry, in general, has effectively assisted in the deaths of over 50,000 infants in the fetal phase or earliest part of life.
This is orchestrated by a liberal / atheist agenda that wants nothing more than to usurp and undermine religion by accusing it of being responsible of
the deaths of 200,000 witches in Salem when the Fact is it was only 20 or the logical fallacy of guilt by association and broad generalization
sweeping statements of false premises.
The idea that no war has ever been in the name of atheism yet more die from the senseless excuses given by the godless in godless societies that when
you examine the reasons given for most of these deaths that couold have easily been averted or avoided all together, they amount to nothing more than
cramping Americas lifestyle.
To suggest that I would buy into your attempt to blur the distinction of what truth is or what a baby is, truth that is normally separated by a line
of demarcation called common sense and a contrast so extreme it is black and white. As you add references using examples held only by the most
extreme, retarded right wing whacko's saying sperm is a baby as if that takes anything away from truth.
It does not.
You use a most sophomoric excuse to dismiss the truth by suggesting Sperm having never impaled itself into the wall of a fertile egg embedding its DNA
is somehow likened to that of a child left in a broom closet crying, knowing only enough of life in its short lived experience to feel the horror of
aloneness, every breath it takes burning like acid as the pleura lining not fully formed, protects it not, in an excruciating and grueling exercise of
inhaling and exhaling.
One wonders how long it will be before we treat are elderly as much a disposable life form, giving them a name fitting for a more sterile excuse for
being so resigned to indifference as we terminate them in some celebratory act of euthanasia.
They are after all not very productive in what will soon be Obama's destiny, to initiate the final chapter in a long tedious Government coup where
not one drop of blood would be spilled but small methodical acts of socialism and communism each generation having less civil and human rights than
those before it. They won't hardly recognize the revisions they have made to history or the freedoms they have lost to those we tried to stop in the
early sixties in Hollywood.
Now, that effort is laughed at on situation comedy and political satire but evidenced by the meteoric rise of the Obama Phenomena, we have a glimpse
of McCarthy like warning signs only this time we realize,,
McCarthy was right,
Hollywood IS owned by the communists and the final chapter in a long succession of skull and bonesman graying the party lines where no matter which
one you picked, a bonesman was elected and now we have "The One" they have all been waiting for.
I remember reading that line in Saul Alinksy's book. This is the tact taken by most post modernists who assume muddying the waters in some merging
of extreme examples taking the sublime to the ridiculous and merging it with your argument only makes for a long winded rebuttal as you have added non
sense and superfluous details, not necessary to those who have not given in to giving up their common sense to the Obamanoidic efforts of the all
volunteer disinformation army.
obviously not shared by everybody else. You obviously would consider a fetus a baby, that's your choice..
Wrong way to look at it killer, HERE is the right way
is a Baby a living being of the human species?
Is a fetus the early stages of human life not yet out of the womb but alive nevertheless? If you really want to get into a REAL argument, you tell me
at what stages of life are we not deserving of our constitutional rights and what are the reasons, if any to deny one human inside the womb to one
living 11 hours outside of it.
At what hour of the one living outside of it do we finally grant those rights and if not, why not?
These are questions that for me, are academic needing no torturously construed alibi's or embellished excuses for the denial of those rights.
Life where Human DNA meets its incubator begins at conception and that has been scientifcally proven. The arguments for Rowe VS Wade have been
decided by judges living at a time when science and technology was not capable of defining such events in our human development.
I will however, be sympathetic to extraordinary circumstances and before a brainwave that registers discomfort and pain but that isn't giving away
much to some and it may be more than I should.
Yes, an a little touch of sarcasm.. why not be straight up? this is a debate? no? Do you feel the need to hide behind sarcasm?
No more than you have the need to be so presumptuous again and mis-represent me not as being sarcastic but for saying I am "hiding" behind it.
I figured levity is welcome in some situations and the somewhat adversarial posts by Mick often require a touch of that just so the readers will know
which one of us has the heartbeat. (umm yeah, that would be another attempt at jocularity)
What "moral ethics" can be find into today's anti-left populous huh? You folks appear to spend 90% of your time arguing moral ethics that
seem to contradict the current dealings with the very elected leaders of yours,
Yes I often hear this one when truth becomes hate by those that hate the truth
Dicto simpliciter / Fallacy of accident / Sweeping generalization
A sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation, but the features of that particular situation mean the rule
is inapplicable. It's the error made when you go from the general to the specific.
"Christians generally dislike atheists. You are a Christian, so you must dislike atheists."
This fallacy is often committed by people who try to decide moral and legal questions by mechanically applying general rules.
Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition: Again, The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which
has not even been asked.
*yawn* this is one of those times readers, that we meet someone so accurate in his selective blindness he aims at his opponents like he is aiming an
arrow at the side of a barn and then walks up to the arrow and paints a target around it. Ill let him continue his rant, and you will see he needs a
candle to see the sun.
meanwhile this war of lies is raging on over seas, over 4000 dead, trillions lost, and the economy is in the tubes.. and you want to go on
about the conservatce brand of "moral ethics" that none of the candidates in either side seem at all interested in.. unless they need the
Like the dog always laying on the porch moaning in a sleepy stupor everyday he is on that porch and one kid says to the man, what's that dog moaning
about, the man says, he is laying on a nail sticking up out of the porch wood.
The kid says, why doesn't he get off of it?
The man says,, it don't hurt bad enough yet.
Think about it.
Part two of my rebuttal to whats his name and what it is about.
The man has gone to great lengths in providing the appropriate evidence to prove his eligibility for the presidency...
You know, I hear this all the time and the more I hear it, the more people say it. The more people say it, the more I guess they think I am supposed
to believe it and while the logical fallacy or ad nauseum may or may not have any fallacious where this argument is directed, I find it difficult to
buy into it for one reason and that is because it is a relatively simple task which when you examine the facts and I am talking about the kind of
facts like knowing what your own name is because you remember it.
Now I may have lived long enough to be your Father and I remember all the BIGGEST headlines from Kennedy to MLK. I remember my Phone number when I
was only five years old was Clearbrook 3-3463 Areacode 312 Chicago.
I remember my Dad taking me to see the garage where the St Valentines Day Massacre took place with the bullet marks still on the wall.
I also remember the day they asked Obama for his BC and we waited.
During this time their was a big stink going on about John McCains birth and omg they ended up doing an entire investigation about it and McCain
showed a COLB ( Certificate of live Birth ) as his original was so tattered it was hardly legible. Some argued about the COLB and without hesitation,
doing what he always did, he put the Country First and not all the excuses about obscure laws requiring only "certain" people with "certain"
access allegedly to protect his Identity and all that other BS we hear.
No, John McCain did something apparently, so magnanimous, so brave and courageous, is it any wonder he put his comrades first before taking that offer
to leave the hanoi hilton, costing him six years of POW time.
Yes John McCain did what any and all American applicants for the highest Office in the land would have done when the suspicion surrounding his place
of birth was in question.
He showed us that tattered original BC.
He gave no excuses, he hired no lawyers, he had no Government Officials in Panama blocking Hospital doors, he had no journalists arrested for asking
questions in a Panamanian airport hotel and he offered no "financial assistance or contributions" to any "urban legend debunking websites" for
doing such a fine job. He didn't have any state officials or any other third party Government and or state office heads of any health Dept., doing
favors for him while visiting in Panama for he knew even if they did, it would look contrived at the very least.
John McCain had been in trouble before and although he was exonerated, he didn't forget the lessons about "appearances" that seem inappropriate.
This is what experienced statesman sometimes learn the hard way.
Besides, it was NOT an out of the ordinary request and the likely hood someone could get away with any mischievous unlawful act was so remote with his
kind of political celebrity, no,, John McCain went apparently,, well beyond the call of duty and to some that would argue this point, he did something
almost HEROIC! Something we didn't have to sue him over it was that important to us and John mcCain, the only one running that had ever really
fought for me, SHOWED US HIS DAMN VAULTED BC!^%W#$#
It didn't take a supreme court ruling!
It didn't take any squabling over the veracity of its importance
it didn't take a DOH from panama to tell us "yeah he has one and it is an authentic one but when it is asked where it says he was born,,, that same
DOH official turning their nose in the air as if it was sooo much a bother to answer what EVERYONE KNOWS was the REAL reason anyone wanted to know
what was on it to begin with,, but again getting stonewalled with the excuse "well I have work to do" leaving the biggest secret of and the very
reason the Vaulted BC is so well guarded because it is times like this that require the FACTS when Facsimiles are so easily manufactured these days
and government officials so Corrupted by greed and power.
Hell I just saw eight years of lies where the buck stops and an entire administration below it all lying to cover up INCREDIBLE scenarios, yet they
lied anyway using the "whatcha gonna do about it" defense.
Sort of like the "Deal with it" defense we see so many saying from the ObamaBlogs I know their have been Hoaxes, and usually are to cover up lies.
Usually the Hoaxes are created by the same person or persons caught in a scandal. This is done to discredit original claims and is quite effective.
merely having your own people, posing as the opposition, putting out red herrings to be investigated and designed to be found out are in fact fakery,
will create enough discontent for any other and sometimes legitimate arguments with mitigating circumstances that the scandal eventually becomes a cry
wolf tactic in the eyes of pundits and their respective interlocutors.
It takes on a life of its own and albeit Obama has many to say they approve of the most used method of forgery and Identity theft by every meth
tweaking twit on the face of the earth IE the COLB and every illegal alien who ever wanted to get a Drivers License, we the people are told to allow
it for someone so surrounded in PROVEN fiascos and so many shady friends who are all just alleged to have been "just someone living in the
neighborhood" in a politically corrupt state environment in an ethically bankrupt politcal machine, that I being from there and growing up the son of
one the highest ranking criminal investigators in the state of illinois, I got to ask myself,, have we lost our freakin minds! I know my Dad. having
since retired, is asking the same thing and wondering what the hell is going on there.
He always said Blago was a crook, and he always said Obama was a "commie" and a liar.
He reminded his friends of the made for movies crime fighter played by Clint Eastwood named Dirty Harry. I don't know if it was because our last
name is similar or for the way he closed down a car dealership in downtown Chi Town after they sold my Grandmother a Rambler that was a lemmon.
One thing I know for certain, something I remembered from the time I was five years old.
That when he was incharge of LBJ's security whenever the drunken democrat visited the windy city, he would talk to his friends on his job and my Dad
was always right about what he said would happen. One of those times was RFK and the other was MLK.
Events like that didn’t surprise my dad one bit.
What he had always said about Obama, I can't prove without asking him and I doubt my dad would give an Obama supporter the time of day.
As for the COLB and the Hoaxes,
The internet is busting at the seams with people that do this at no cost to the person or persons perpetrating it. They are for all intents and
purposes, unknowing agents of a conspiracy of change,, a change in not just our a President but our form of Government and the Constitution it is,, or
used to be based on. They are the Micks and the Heretics and the Danxs of the Internet who seem to always be here 24/7 defending the strangest
election in memory in an Internet era of Obamablogging antagonists accusing us for having the audacity to request Constitutional integrity. Those
creating fake COLB and making up urban legends may just as well be Obamanoids doing it but no one really cares because the truth lies in one single
solitary Document with no subsitute to verify it as Fact.
This is why they call it a "vaulted Birth Certificate" and why it is the only one we would accept from a man not a damn one of you knows a damn
You may very well be an agent of that change
I have grown increasingly less believing in.
In Fact,, I now believe was a lie
from the very start
[edit on 8-1-2009 by Aermacchi]