The Heroism Conspiracy

reply to post by 5thElement - MY DAD WAS A HERO IN WW1 AND HE WAS DECORATED BY PRINCE ALBERT.

I wonder why all of you feel the need to be right. Is for any reason beyond feeding the ego?

My husband is in the army, i do not take offense to what was said at all and i do agree with you in some aspects.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I must agree with your post, and seeing as how you have mentioned what I posted earlier about how the military usualy sees the term "hero" I am assuming that you have actually read this whole thread..

With that being said I was wondering if you might have noticed that the OP. and most of the posters that are agreeing with the OP. do not seem interested in actually discussing the Original topic?

Most just seem to want to post thier perceptions of the military, and the people who for whatever reason join up..

Another saying that is often used in the military is "The only heros are dead ones!" So most military personell are not so "gung-ho" to become a "Hero"

reply to post by 5thElement


Hey 5th,he was in WW1 - get real.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by 5thElement - MY DAD WAS A HERO IN WW1 AND HE WAS DECORATED BY PRINCE ALBERT.

Well I don't know if you are being Sarcastic or not, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, and that possibly your point is that you are "older" than what 5th may think you are,

I'll guesse that if your father served in WWI, that at the latest he was born in 1900. joined up when he was 16-17, and may have sired you late in life, lets say 52, (my father was 53 when I was born) so that would make your age around 55 ish..

Most people join the military to get started in life. They do not join to become heros. Some stay in because of the retirement and the ability to start as second career after retirement.

Hero is a concept used by the body politic to justify thier next war or political needs. It has always been that way. Anyone in uniform who is capable of thinking for themselves knows that the so called heros are mostly dead or maimed for life. They find little glory in it. Any of the real medal winners did not set out to do so....to win medals or become so called heros. They were just caught up in circumstances for which their consciences would allow them do nothing else.

THe reason you hear so much about it nowdays by the media and body poliitic is because the media has clearly become nothing but an extension to the will of the body politic...shilling for the same body politic. Hero concepts are needed to prepare the more gullible public for the next coming war.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 2-1-2009 by orangetom1999]

Originally posted by capgrup

I suggest you go to a Military Cemetary and look at the rows of headstones. You might not think or feel or believe that the soldiers fighting today are fighting for you, but I guarantee you that those from the beginning of this country to Korea, and yes even Veitnam, and yes even now died HEROICALLY for you.

ahh ok so soldiers fighting in vietnam was for the american people? so people fighting in iraq is for the american people? so if they dont go to Iraq and fight this will have dire consequences for the american people? LOL get a CLUE

Yeah, 'Nam & Iraq are political expediency; nothing more.

Oh, shall I mention the tens of millions of missing oil money, that has been hush-hushed by the media, after just a few light mentions? Newsweek & Time both reported it. Where did that go, hmmm?

And presence in the area is the concurrent other reason. Who cares what they have to tell the soldiers and the people? They do what they're told, as I posted earlier.

It's nice to have national pride, but there is no national pride in killing for political huff-huffs between the stage players. The machinations behind such actions need to be examined before you agree to go killing for your country. Few even think about it.

The draft is one thing; volunteering for action n excitement is another (doesn't happen? I assure you it's a fact!).

And this is a wicked world, so we understand why, for example, the usa and certain other countries think they should have it all, and others less. Please don't touch my stuff; and give me your milk money.

War pride; lies.

Self-defense, yeah. Ever see the americans in their big cars on the streets? Mindless hypocrites, at the World level.

Democracy? It's nice to have blinders for the people; they go in the direction you want them to. Get that carrot! Oh, and kill anything in Our way; we sanction it!

Yeah, they're Heroes alright. Guts n Glory seekers, in most cases; not to mention cash payout!

C'mon; wake up. Think a tiny bit.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by SideWynder


Your point is.....?

reply to post by george_gaz


George - you are so right - thank you.

Heroism (named after the Greek figure "Hero") is about sacrifice for what is right. Sometimes that is for the "greater good" whereby a soldier jumps on a grenade to protect his buddies (sacrifice 1 to save 4 or more). And sometimes it is about going "above the call of duty" to put your life on the line to save another human being (in and out of war operations). But it can also be a conscious sacrifice whereby one disobeys an immoral order and consequently pays the "ultimate price." An example of nazi heroism is appropos here: There was a german soldier in Norway who was part of a firing squad to kill innocent civilians (maybe they were being killed as a reprisal against the "resistance" I cant recall). And there was a soldier who couldnt kill innocents like that and he could have shot and missed but he wanted to make a point - to not shoot an innocent civilian and thus he laid down his rifle...and then knowing that he could be shot for such an obvious disobedience of an order (to kill) he took his place with the civilians and was shot down by the members of the firing squad with the civilians. Is this not an Act of Heroism? Until the SHTF and troops start killing innocent civilians because they are ordered to do so, let's give the troops the benefit of the doubt. Most of the grunts are brainwashed but there are some decent men at the higher levels of the military. Most are highly educated, intelligent and moral. Men like Gen. David Petraeus and Gen. William Caldwell (whom he replaced...Heck, Bill Caldwell is married to a Methodist minister and they have young kids for crying out loud. Men like that, even tho they are good, obedient soldiers, will ultimately do what is best for the Country. God Bless the USA!

I would also like to voice my disgust at members of the UK who do not wear poppies on and around Remembrance Day (which is the 11th of November in the UK and we have a moment of silence at 11am, I am not sure if the US has anything similar?).
I am normally one of the first to wear, and last to take off, my poppy and I wear it with pride. I wear it to show my appreciation to those that have already put their lives on the line and have perished, to those that stayed at home to keep the country afloat (the Women of WWII) and to those that are currently serving.

It disgusts me how, year on year, I see fewer and fewer poppies on public display. The elderly seem to always be brandishing a poppy without fail but it seems to be the ignorant youth (of all colours) of today who fail to wear one.

Last year (Nov 08) I was questioned by a person of 21 years of age "What is that paper flower pinned to your chest?"

Need I say more?

[edit on 2-1-2009 by george_gaz]

Originally posted by lunarminer
reply to post by TheRandom1

 

Still think that "turn the other cheek" will work?

Turning the other cheek couldn't be any less effective than returning the slap to someone other than the person that slapped you first.

I have to agree with the OP in that the term hero is overused in our society. Additionally for posters who make the claim that we can all sleep safely at night due to these "heroes" - do you honestly feel safer in a world that is far less stable than it was 8 years ago primarily due to our Iraq crusade?

The thing that scares me is the inability of people to judge each and every situation according to its own merit. A significant group of Americans (usually gun toting Sarah Palin type supporters) believe that all wars are good and make us safer and that all military people are good natured heroic life savers. This state of thinking we are infallible and righteous in our military action will eventually lead to our downfall.

reply to post by alienj


My oh my, I can't even believe what I am hearing from you sir. Really? Is that what you believe? I don't want to be the one to break it to you but you surely are brainwashed. I am a representative( civilian member) of IVAW, Iraqi Veterans Against the War, and I am sure you can ask anyone of those real "heroes" what they believe in regards to this topic. (you can google their website if you like) I can assure you that all those non-active and active members will tell you about all the horror stories and events they had to encounter while deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I'm not going to sit here and speak for those ex-service men and current service men and women. What I will talk about is my own personal opinions and my beliefs as to why everything that you represent is utterly and completely false.

Throughout my life's journey, I have encountered many types of hate. Racial, sexual, religious, but to this day I have not seen anything as evil as the type of unbiased hate that our military does in the name of freedom and protecting ours. And how does the deployment of a military battalion on US soil protect our Constitution? Wouldn't that be a direct violation of our constitution? (Habeus Corpus) sp? Those are just mere facts. I know, facts, who needs those when we have blind faith that our government can do no wrong? Wouldn't we, as a people, prefer to be "safe from terrorism" than have our rights be upheld? Something about the last question really gets me thinking and I'm sure I'm not the only one who believes that our government wishes to do more bad than good. Just because we are the ones creating the history and manufacturing it to our content does not make us right, as a country. And all this "fake" Patriotism, heroism, or whatever other gist you chose to call it, is just a control method which has been used since the beginning of government or a ruling body of people to get the masses behind whatever they deem as a necessary course of action. I'm not here to argue but I am here to shine light on the obvious propaganda that you are spewing in order to justify your 28 years of service. I bet you believe all people you should have microchip implanted as long as the government says it's in our best interest. Out of all that so called education and worldly experience, how much of it was actually just you doing individual research, reading and comprehending texts. Questioning and reflecting in an unbiased way? I highly doubt you have done that all, sir. And the reason I say this is because of the team mentality that is instilled in military, it's the same with cops. Of course you are going to think you are in the right. Why would you admit to yourself that your whole life has been a lie? You sir are nothing more than a product of a corrupt and murderous system and if you sir, do not see this truth than I feel that your soul is more than lost. Talk to a couple of the service men and active members of IVAW and see if you still think that we are correct in carrying out this extermination of a people. You know that there has always been a doubt in your mind that the things which you have done have been wrong, you just need to know that you are right. Your heart will always lead you in the right direction, it is those in Power that will trick your mind into shutting out common human sense. We all share the same emotions, and pre-engrained knowledge, no matter our race, sex, or religious affiliation, we just love to get caught up in current "reality" but know that we all have the power to break loose and start to think for ourselves. I have faith that you will see the light one day, I just hope that it's not the imitation of light/truth used to turn you against your fellow man. I'm almost out of space and have plenty more to say, fellow ATS members come follow me to www.myspace.com/msp4206
lets move forward

Mindsmog;

If the soldier dies for his or her friend in the foxhole, or because he/she believes it is neccesary to prevent a future attack is what matters. They are the only person allowed to question why they chose to do so. Not me, not you, not anyone.

SS,Naga;

I really do not believe anyone even mentioned money in this entire thread. Talk about going off on a tangent.

Originally posted by SideWynder


I must agree with your post, and seeing as how you have mentioned what I posted earlier about how the military usualy sees the term "hero" I am assuming that you have actually read this whole thread..

With that being said I was wondering if you might have noticed that the OP. and most of the posters that are agreeing with the OP. do not seem interested in actually discussing the Original topic?

Most just seem to want to post thier perceptions of the military, and the people who for whatever reason join up..

Another saying that is often used in the military is "The only heros are dead ones!" So most military personell are not so "gung-ho" to become a "Hero"

Ya, I do not want to be a hero for it most likely means I'm dead and half my buddies are dead too.

Heroic acts are only seen as that well after the fact. The actual act was just a person doing the best job they can under extreme situations.

I just hate arm chair quarterbacks who only know what they see on the news or read in bias blogs. Kind of funny the 500k plus that have been to Iraq over the years have a totally different perspective on it all...I wonder who is closer to the truth, those who sit in their house, or those who are/were actually there....


Think about it...

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

Throughout my life's journey, I have encountered many types of hate. Racial, sexual, religious, but to this day I have not seen anything as evil as the type of unbiased hate that our military does in the name of freedom and protecting ours.

The military does not hate anyone...I miss you point. We have no choice to do as those voted into office tell us to do. Our only choice is jail if we don't.

When we are over there we do our job as professional as we can under extreme situations. For every bad deed you can dream up there are 10,000s of good deeds that go unnoticed daily.

Yes, fighting is hell, but the war was over after the first few weeks, and these past long years have been nothing more than preventing secular fighting and political based groups that want to keep the chaos going so that if/when we leave they can take over.

If we were not there we would see another Darfur happen and a Saddam twin take office. To argue if we should have been there in the first place is not a luxury of ours for we are just trying to fix the mess our government created.

I spent well over two years of my life over there and what you think you know is far from the actual truth.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

The last anonymous post on Page 4 was written by me, and it was mostly directed towards Xtrozero as well as Rasputin 13. (I can't believe there are so many like you) (well actually I can, its sad I know) I could spend the rest of my life disproving all your theories and concepts. Let me just state a couple of facts about me before you start making assumptions. I am 25 and was born in the USA. I lived in Miami for most of my life and was lucky to be raised in such a diverse community. I was also lucky enough to be in a language arts Magnet school where I was able to learn German and it's history. (accurate world history) ( well to a certain extent)
I was able to see lots of parts of the world at an early age. I also am fluent in Spanish as my parents are both of Nicaraguan heritage, with my father actually having served in the military for his country which was ransacked and dismantled before being able to develop on its own. Instead this government planted a corrupt family at the top of the Government food chain to halt any progress that my people would have been able to achieve on their own. That's either neither here nor there because to be truthful I would take a bullet for a complete stranger, be they Nicaraguan, Peruvian, American, German, Iraqian, Isreali, Palestinian, and or Alien. (lol) It doesn't matter what label they put on a life to me it is just that and every single light vibration(life) has a right to survive and prosper. Those who wish to control and/or manipulate others lives are the ones doing wrong. Are you not by invading another's country trying to impose your own belief systems on a people? I completely agree with the OP and don't believe he made any mistakes in his post or reposts regarding your attacks on his/her character. You probably will never read my posts but just know that just because you didn't personally didn't commit any of the crimes doesn't mean you weren't an accomplice or turned blind eyes when need be. You can't bull # a bull #ter and you sirs, both of you or the thrice of you have a scent that even passes through the information superhighway and resonates in my nostril hair to alert me of lies. I really am that enlightened as I state, and have seen and done more for humanity than you ever wished to have accomplished in your time serving the military industrial complex. You tell the poster, to think a little, well I say to thee, Think a lot because it is evident that not much thinking is occuring on your side of the creek. Only through individual awareness can we conquer this evil, so to all my fellow ATSer's keep posting the truth in as many forms as you can. We all know that repition is the best way to get people to remember. We cannot allow them to forget the real reasons we are in these current wars and what the impending future holds if we do not act now. 4 years before human slavery is the norm, let's not allow that to happen. I will continue my good will work through my avenues and I encourage all of you to do so as well. You all have my undying support and faith that we will suceed. It all starts and ends with Adolfo Nicolas, that's just "sumthing" I've recently found of interest. Of course there are many more things to cover and talk about but let's unite and brainstorm to come out with the best ideas like we usually get to here on ATS. And just cause this is my first "actual" post, that's just cause I never felt I needed to let myself be known. But now you have an easy way to contact me or look me up so we can continue to grow our efforts. MSP by the way is an acronym for my name which is Muerte Sin Palabras. Yes I am a musician amongst other things but that should deter the validity of my posts. I have made many anonymous posts but due to my profession, I chose not to reveal myself until I felt the time was right. I guess it just took the right Posting to get me out of the shadows. One Love to anyone and everyone because in the end we are all in this together.Godspeed

I think you made some great points OP. I am a vet and you definitely do get brainwashed during boot camp. They tell you how to think, that killing is glorious. If you don't believe me, ask any vet what you have to say during the bayonet training. The drill sergeant asks you, " What makes the green grass grow?" The response is, "BLOOD! BLOOD MAKES THE GREEN GRASS GROW!" and then you stab a dummy with the bayonet fixed to your M-16. You are taught that America and The Government are indistinguishable.

I feel bad for our troops. They are pawns for our gov to play with. They are gov property and are owned. If you don't believe me, look it up. If a soldier injures himself/herself on their own they can be charged with destruction of government property.

They HAVE to do what they are told. They HAVE to conform.

They wars that have been waged in the past 40 years have not been to defend the American people, they have been to invade, liberate, and occupy OTHER countries. Of course we are told that it is for national security and such.

I support the troops because they cannot support themselves. They cannot choose what battles and missions that they are sent on. I feel bad for my colleagues that have their faces blown off by roadside bombs and had their helicopters shot down ALL IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES!

reply to post by Xtrozero


word. I guess that makes it all ok then. I'm glad you replied cause my actual post was meant for you. I'm the result of what happened to my people in Nicaragua. I fight for the injustices that they face now because of our military actions of the past. I really do see your points and stances as soldiers but you need to understand that you are still a pawn in a much bigger game. So just cause you build a house for 1 family of conformists that doesn't make all the wrong committed irrelevant. I understand why you are trying to justify the actions of your brothers and sisters in the military but it still doesn't make it right. If we took half of our military funding we could feed and house the world be we choose not to as a means of control. And we do have a firm grasp on the world, and by we I mean this great nation of deception and secret societies. I bet you believe that everything Isreal is doing is justified as well. Remember my friend an eye for eye makes the whole world blind. It is engrained in our blood no to kill yet we still do it, why? The devil is amongst us. (I'm not religious either, more like spiritual) There is heresay and fact, and I try to follow my heart to lead me in the right direction. I try to only deal with fact but when facts are not presented accurately I can only rely on what I already know about those who are spewing the information and if thats the case then I can't say that our governments track record is looking too good. Believe in what you will but just know that there is a huge faction of people that are becoming aware and we will rise up against the tyranny and greed. When that time comes, I hope you will be able to know the difference between friend or foe? America needs help from its soldiers no doubt, just not at this moment. Instead of building houses out there, why not build them here on our homeland. Why is that we just don't care enough about our own? Can you answer those questions honestly from your own opinion or are you just going to spew more propagandist dribble. We are getting stronger everday and we will not allow these puppetmasters to escape without accountability. Their webs of deception will be burnt to the ground. The more information I get the more we as a community can start to brainstorm on ways to continue our cause and lead ourselves in the right direction. Just cause we "vote" for 1 of 2 candidates doesn't make this a democracy. Lift the veil of deception and see the beast for what it is. I hope you can see the truth one day but I fear that you may never but even then I still have faith that you will join our cause. You with all your inside knowledge could be a huge part of the resistance movement you just need to be awakened. I hope you join our fight one day, the fight of the average American just trying to reclaim his/her freedom. One Love to all

Muerte Sin Palabras (Death Without Words) (for all you gringos...lol)