The Heroism Conspiracy

Originally posted by TheRandom1

So you're saying that because i think it's wrong to kill others and that there are peaceful alternatives to war that I'm the bad guy? That I spit on people? I never sid we should spit on our troops or anyone, but you implied that my ieology of peace and love is what spured the hatred towards the troops after the vietnam war, the spin stops here sir.

I notice youuse the word God a lot, this implies to me that you might be religious, did you know that Jesus taught us to love our enemies? That is where I'm basing most of my thoughts on this from, what Jesus said.

You see you can't kill an ideology with bullets, that is what terrorism is, you can kill ideology with a countering ideology though, the people in the middle east (which I dated one and she was anything but a savage, so I take offense to you said) have been fighting each other for thousands of years, to wrongs don't make a right, that's something they don't get, that's something nobody,, including you, does not get. Also, if you never forgive the terrorists, you will die with hate in your heart, do you really want to die hating someone?

Like I said you can't kill an ideology with bullets.

Also, you make it seem like I'm saying hateful things about the troops, i'm not, I don't know if you just ran through what I said and never thoguht about any of it, or if you are purposfully trying to paint me as some evil guy who hates people, i dont hate anyone,I don't even hate the doctors that killed my grandma, I don't even hate the woman who drove me into having a mental break down, I don't even hate the drug dealers who wanted to kill me, what good does hate do? None, none whatsoever.

Also, don't attack me attac the issue, personal attacks are one of the first signs someone is losing an arguement, don't lose your arguement before you even start bro.

Also, my keybard doesn't always type what 'I want it too, some keys stick and some don't even type at all, I'm on a crappy laptop.

-Lahara

It is understandably difficult for the majority of spoon fed sheeple living in our mediaocracy to understand your precepts.

I think the root of all this lies in the condition of the fallen nature of man.
Without divine intervention man cannot escape his inner inclinations of jealously, envy, pride, and wrath from which proceeds all acts of hatred, prejudices, wars and evil.

Man, without the regeneration of his lost spirit, is the conduit for every evil thought in the the Universe(demons = evil thoughts). When an evil thought enters a man and he entertains it, that thought gets planted in the soil of his mind, then comes to life. All thoughts have gravity. In this case scenario the evil thought attracts more evil thoughts. A tree of death built on the root of an evil thought results, and the evil grows exponentially in the mind(law of attraction).

Eventually the evil manifests in the outer world in all manner of hatred, meanness, selfish conduct, wars, taking pleasure in the suffering of others and pleasure in murdering people, opposition to God or anything divine such as Love, etc. In this state man is under the Law of the Old Covenant, which provides buffering and keeps him in check, though he still fails miserably at holding evil inclinations back, as the evening news so often demonstrates.

It would be nice if the world was ideal, but, as I am sure you agree, we do not live in such a place. From God's perspective, the ideal world would have every one's lost spirit regenerated and filled with His Divine Nature. Such people would have a heart governed by the Spirit of Love, and since the Spirit of Love can do nothing but that which is good, honorable and just, all people would be in an ideal state of mind(our thoughts become our tree of life), making the world a peaceful place to live. But, as soon as one person desires to harm another person, the ideal world does not exist and a war of sorts begins.

Therefore the ideals found in scripture do not work in our reality except to the extent those divine precepts are applied to our own hearts and minds. By necessity, a person with a regenerated spirit will seek out those who are willing to receive regeneration or resurrection of their lost spirit(law of attraction).

As long as men's hearts are in an unregenerate state, spiritual ideologies will inevitably have to be set aside to fight wars. It might sound hypocritical, but it is the result of our reality.

While man is under the power of nature, governed only by worldly wisdom, his life, no matter how old he might be, is quite childish. That is because everything about him serves only to awaken childish thoughts and pursuits in him. All that he sees and hears, all that he desires and fears, all that he has, and all that he has not, all that he gets and all that he loses, serves only to carry him from one fiction of evil to another fiction of good, from one vanity of peace to another vanity of trouble. His entire life is a feed back loop of his desire continually wanting and his wanting continually desiring. From this there is no escape except through the regeneration of his lost spirit. That process is for another topic.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by John Matrix]

[from Quetzalcoatl]
"The history of the planet Earth demonstrates one thing to us. It shows that those in power will test those who are not as powerful. They will use intolerable situations to see how much the less powerful will take before they wake up due to the pain it causes. One of the ways this is done in your Society is through creative lawmaking. It is the process to retain and usurp individual responsibility and place it under the dominion of Society. The more that the numbness has crept in through the enactment of elaborate and confusing distinctions, the more difficult it is to recover one's Freedom. They know that they had been successful in turning the human race into an unmanageable mass that knows its prescribed place in the safety of Society. The sooner the human race wakes up, the sooner the slavemasters must withdraw to reset their strategy. The slavemasters have been defeated many times, but it is a many headed beast. As soon as you chop one head off another attacks from your weak side. They have planned it this way over the centuries of a passage of mythology that I have discussed with you and tried to elucidate for you. All myths have their basis in external reality."
("Scales of the Dragon," A.Dragon)

Those in power enforce this creative lawmaking stratagem through it's military strength, both domestically and internationally. I don't expect common (or even uncommon) soldiers (the body) to know this, or care. They are the tools that are used, no matter how 'in the know' they think they may be.

But it is not viable to reason with our past enemies, victims of previous transgressions: it will not work. Look at the world. Is it a wonder the soldier(s) think, "I'm gonna fight for Right!"? Some have achieved an understanding, and seek to do their best. Hurray for them.

I have a friend who joined the army lately; I advised him to kill no one. Hope it works for him.

It's a dangerous world we all live in.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by TheRandom1




by Gary Jacobson © 2000

The lady said, “Heroes sit here,
In our most honored chair,”
“I don’t mean to sound insincere,”
I replied, “but where do I sit,”
“Because I’m no hero. No, not a bit.
I just went where my country told me to go.
There was no question, there was no pause,
Nothing there that should merit applause.

I’m no hero!
Just because into the breach of hell I did go.
For men of honor have no choice
Than to join in the shout with freedom’s voice
I didn’t think about it, I just went,
To join the army of soldiers sent...
Wouldn’t anybody?

I’m no hero!
I would rather not have had to go,
If there was another way I don’t know.
Sure, I’ve got a purple heart for the time I bled.
People saw me then, thought I’d soon be dead.
But I survived the war winds foulest blow.
Escaped the master of death in embattled mist below.

I’m no hero!
I just slugged it out with Charley toe-to-toe,
I crossed his deadly path
Still feel his demonic wrath
His bullets incessantly stinging
Feeling incessant tearing forever shedding
In my soldier’s wearied mind,
Honoring buddies left behind!
Though the war’s now blowing in the wind,
Heart and soul still rend.

I’m no hero!
For then I felt no fear I now intimately know.
Now I dream of rogue bullets that death’s questions ask,
Killing their favorite task...
I see in dreams where through fetid jungle they tore
Doing their killing chore,
So quick, so clean, sweeping past
Memories suck me in from future cast,
Forever changing moods lightning fast,
Forever taking lives, yet not the last...

I’m no hero!
I simply had a duty when called to go
I didn’t back down, but quelled the foe.
I swore with all might to try
To God’s bidding do, or die!
Because I loved my country more than life
Vowed to follow behind patriot’s drum and fife.
To win freedoms to which forefathers clove
Undead regiments with youthful principles war drove!

Heroes are men endowed with great courage,
Who with great strength sway bloody fields of carnage.
Heroes are men of bold exploits favored by God,
Bearing noble purpose born of native sod.
I’m just an ordinary man who saw his duty,
Who answered a call to arms to defend beloved liberty.

I’m no hero, as you can plainly see.
When the roll was called to stand for their country
I stood...that’s all!
I did nothing special that honor on me should befall.
In Vietnam I did a little walking,
A little sweating, A little bleeding,
Almost dying
A purple heart earning
Some call A “Move too slow award”
That near cut life’s silver cord.

I'm no hero, for I did nothing witty nor wise
I’m just one of the countless little guys
Who faced daily war’s evil eyes...
Doing his duty against war's bestial ogre cunning
Demons within and without constantly fighting
Hoping, searching, fearing, humping
Marching with thousands of brothers-in-arms alongside
Through valley's shadow where patriotic spirits guide.

I’m no hero...
Though for uncle Sam seeds of war did sow
Bearing patriotic heritage planted long ago.
I faced warlord Ho Chi Minh’s fiery breath,
Deep and deeper into bowels of shadowed death.
With vengeance he'd banished freedom’s light,
Cast unwelcome caresses of wars despicable blight.
Good men of conscience had that despot to stop,
Proclaim bastions of freedom on every mountaintop.

I’m no hero...
Just another war-torn Joe,
Whose warrior soul arose above cannon’s roar,
Like eagles, young men's brave spirits soar,
Bearing naive and gung-ho this boy next door,
Above a soil enriched with soldiers seeping blood,
Getting down and dirty in Nam’s mud.

They say war measures the depth of a hero
Young boy’s ruin mid thundered guns aglow,
Just links in the chain
Sent duty to retain, freedom to proclaim
Growing acts of war like cancer in the brain
A new set of senses war does indelibly ingrain,
Combat infantrymen fates defy
Virulent beasts raging inside till the day I too die.

I’m no hero!
Not at all like Rambo.
To this day living with war etched into my lifetime
Always watching for movements out of rhyme
Ever listening for sounds that don’t belong,
Always with the feeling something’s wrong.
I still roam triple canopied jungle where I lost the boy
In elephant grasses lost much of life’s joy.
Neither wine nor advances of withering sun
Can ever warm a cold, heated year of the gun.

I’m no hero!
Just because I stepped into war’s inferno.
I was raised believing you answered when called,
To go somewhere where freedom's were galled
For a noble allegiance the young owed
To shoulder a nation's heavy load
To honor a sacred duty forsworn,
The clarion trumpeted an obligation born,
To win the red badge of courage, proudly worn.

Vietnam was a duty you could not with honor refuse.
Respect for goodly values I will always choose
There was no choice but to do it, or self esteem lose,
For their comes a time when you have to pay your dues
To beloved honor uphold
To keep this the land of the free and bold
For country, for neighbors, for family, for God...for self!
So no ma’am, I’m no hero!

*****

I received a reply regarding this poem, "i'm no hero," which reached down and touched me to the core, and writing this through rivers of tears would share it with you, from a lovely lady I know only as Grandma...

Nay, young man, sit over there,
In our dedicated hero's chair.
While people here at home just cried,
While Uncle Sam to nephews lied,
While mothers' hearts were sorely tried,
YOU went to 'Nam and nearly died.

You dealt with gore, you dealt with blood,
You dealt with Vietnam's stinking mud,
You dealt with Charley's stinking breath,
You dealt with every buddy's death,
You were there, and I was not,
I wish I had the guts you've got.

When you got home, you were denied,
The righteous warrior's winning pride.
Your naive innocence forever gone -
No, I don't want to hear it, son.
You just get comfy over there,
In our dedicated hero's chair.

One thing you don't understand
About what makes heroic man.
Heros, too, are oft afraid,
But scared or not, what makes them brave
Is that no matter what the cost,
They do the job they know they must.

With no excuses, no denying,
No appeals, no whining, crying
About "Why me?" and "Why not Joe?"
You went where you were told to go.
You did what must be done out there,
So you go sit in that there chair.

While you were gone, I stayed in school
And heard the loud, protesting fool
Who tore our country near asunder
Ranting in a voice like thunder,
Who burned the great Red, White, and Blue,
Mocking, hating, men like you.

None of them had ever fought.
You were there and they were not.
You saw the horrors of the war
While they reviled you from afar.
I hate to disagree with you,
But you're a hero, tried and true.

So I'll bring cookies, milk, and cheer
And keep you company out here.
The kids will stand around in awe
As you tell stories of the war
And maybe, when your tales are done,
YOU'll know you are a hero, son!

Blessings,
Grandma

reply to post by TheRandom1


If I understand the OP correctly then he believes that the US should have turned the other cheek after Pearl Harbor?

Of course a simple analysis of this idea promptly falls apart.

If the US had taken the "can't we all get along" attitude to the Japanese, then we would have promptly sacrificed Hawaii, the Phillipines (happened anyway), Alaska, and maybe the West Coast of the US. Then if we continued to show weakness, the Japanese would have been only too happy to liberate the rest of the country.

How do I know this? Simple, I studied history. We know that the Japanese had an agreement with the other Axis Powers on the division of the world after they achieved victory. This agreement very clearly states that the US would be under the Japanese sphere of influence.

I would also point out that the Japanese have no long standing history of Christian values. Instead they have the traditional Eastern values. One of these is that you don't show a weak hand to your enemies, and if your enemy shows you a weak hand then you use it to defeat him.

Now others would point out that the Japanese declared war on the US. This is where I point out that so did al-Qaeda, they made their declaration in public, years before 9/11. I would also point out that al-Qaeda follows the Eastern values that I pointed out above.

Still think that "turn the other cheek" will work?

The best thing about this thread is that op explains very clearly why he feels that calling the army 'hero' is wrong, he suggests that the people that are doing this without even thinking about it are not only brainwashed but part of the brainwashing - he even shows that by joining in with this ill thought out misuse of the world 'hero' people are doing a great injustice to the world.

Guess what happens?

Yep, loads of the people he describes show up to prove his point exactly -nice work guys.

I for one don't feel bad when someone holding a gun gets shot by the people he was going to shoot, whichever side your on if you live by the sword you die by the sword. The fact that people are willing to take a deadly weapon and go and kill people as part of a mission they don't understand in a war they don't understand for a cause they don't understand is frankly very scary and it certainly doesn't make the heroic.

I have friends in the [British] army and quite frankly they have no real grasp of even the basic goings on in the world yet alone complex geopolitics and global power games, They don't care about people or saving the world -they get to play with guns, pretend to be GI JOE and people keep telling them its really important to beat the terrorists - of course the real reason most of them joined in the first place was the simple choice; live a mundane life working in a dull low income job or play war for the queen.

I'm not bashing them or saying that everyone in a pith helmet is a moron, all i'm saying is very few people join the army because they want to save the world from evil.

I'm not a total pacifist, sometimes wars need to be fought (in self defense) like WW2 for instance, we can't let every tyrannical nutjob try to takeover the world, however that doesn't mean Vietnam need to be invaded to stop the local population picking the wrong form of government or Saddam needed to be killed for switching oil sales from dollars to euros.

It's easy to get caught up in the hype, yes maybe saddam could have made a weapon that could attack the USA/Europe and maybe he did use chemical weapons on his own population but is that really why we invaded? of course it isn't! If we were so against genoside then we wouldn't have ignored Rwanda and we would be in palestine now telling off the jews, if we were really scared of despots with deadly weapons then we in the west wouldn't sell so many massively high tech devices to the rest if the world, especially not despotic lunatics - what did we think was going to happen to all the anthrax spores we sold?!?

Is the guy that sits in his little base pushing big red buttons which fire rockets into someones family home really a hero? are the guys on our trident subs heros as they wait for the right time to decimate an entire continent with nukes? the guy who covered the woman and children in vietnam with Napalm also heros? if thats the case, hell is full of heros.

Originally posted by bigvig316 . . .
You shouldn't be saying that we should be turning the other check when innocent people are killed, murdered, just because they showed up to work. If the 9/11 terrorist would have hit only military targets like Wright-Patterson Air force Base or just the Pentagon, then maybe you could present the argument for turning the other cheek or try to talk about a peaceful solution. But when it is turned to the innocent population, it needs to meet with a measured response.

I for one, personally, will be thanking them for trying to defeat the enemies who brought terror to my doorstep and making easier to sleep at night knowing they are out there protecting us, searching out and eliminating our would be killers.

Perhaps you should look into the 9/11 story, see how ridiculous it is, and do something about the real terrorists, instead of blindly following the false-flag toting finger pointing to those Israel wants your government to exterminate.

9/11 was manufactured by traitorous Americans and Mossad as an excuse to set about conquering the world, in accordance with the PNAC documents, and an excuse to take away your rights.

Unquestioning propaganda drinkers allowed it to succeed.

Originally posted by TheRandom1 . . . .
In case your wondering what heroism means to me, well, it's not about winning a fight, it's not about killing people or hating your enemy, it's about sacrificing yourself for others, it's about loving your enemy, it's never about killing a few to save the many, it's about presenting an alternative to those wh would harm others, to show them he truth and show them how t love each other and get past many of the things that sepperate us. . . . .

You speak like one Jesus would be glad to call a friend.

And also, (to prevent this being a one line post,) like one who could use the Firefox spellchecker ad-on.

First off, I would just like to say one thing about the person who posted this thread, GET A LIFE! Hell, you wouldnt even have a life if it werent for our troops.

Let me say this as well, if it was you over there in the warzone, and you were getting shot at, and another Marine or soldier jumps in and saves you from gettin your head blown off, you would be singing a whole new tune my friend.

The Military personel consists of brothers and sisters, moms and dads, people who put their life in jeopardy to serve something greater than themselves, obviously, you never have. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows someone whos been in the military, but only a handful of people really know what the military is all about, everyone else are just meer spectators, just as yourself.

I dont mean to be so hard on you man, but if you were to say something like that outloud anywhere around my neighborhood, chances of you walkin away clean are very slim. You cant say that all of our grandfathers, uncles, dads, brothers, who have fought and died in something that they believed in were anything but Heros! It makes me sick when I see people bashin those who risk their lives for pieces of #$#$ like you.

OOOOH RAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

reply to post by NatureBoy


I don't think anyone is suggesting that being in the military means you are also hero. And as military people have posted, the military sees the word “hero” as a negative thing unless you really are one. There is a big difference though when you support the troops. Do you think military people have the luxury to pick and choose what they feel like doing? YOU and others vote into office those who tell us what to do, so who is to blame here?

We choose to serve our country no matter what our personal reasons were. In that choice we do as our government tells us to do under very serious repercussions if we don’t. We go places that are living hells and see things the majority of Americans never dreamed of. And we do not care what you think or how you feel about it, there is a time when a promise or handshake determines a person’s credibility, and we pass that test…do you?

No heroes here and yes any hype in that direction just makes us embarrassed. We will in our own way determine who the heroes are among us are and we will in our own way recognize them for who they are. For anyone else to do that is a disservice for their sacrifices.

One interesting thing here if you and I compared lives I wonder how that would play out.....

reply to post by TheRandom1


Hi Random,

I would just like to say that I agree with you by and large.

I know that in my country a lot of people had the option of jail or the military, so they chose the military. There are a lot of baaaad people in those ranks.

But, by the same token, there a lot of good people, a lot of mislead people, a lot of deluded people and a lot of ordinary people who just wanted a job.

And a lot of heroes who didn't even know they would be heroes until they were called upon to be so.

Cheers, and a Happy New Year.

*hello
*how can we post on this forum...

Great post OP, and predictably, your point has been proven by our seeming majority of the close-minded. Your knee jerk reactions and tired talking points get stale after a while.

reply to post by Common Good

Let me say this as well, if it was you over there in the warzone, and you were getting shot at, and another Marine or soldier jumps in and saves you from gettin your head blown off, you would be singing a whole new tune my friend.

I guess you could say his brainwashing would be complete after that.

It's hard to come to grips with the notion that one's self may be brainwashed. Your whole post displays hostility, this is a defence mechanism brought out by your denial.

Originally posted by smarteye
reply to post by Common Good

Let me say this as well, if it was you over there in the warzone, and you were getting shot at, and another Marine or soldier jumps in and saves you from gettin your head blown off, you would be singing a whole new tune my friend.

 

I guess you could say his brainwashing would be complete after that.

It's hard to come to grips with the notion that one's self may be brainwashed. Your whole post displays hostility, this is a defence mechanism brought out by your denial. [/quot]

brainwashed? this isnt about being brainwashed, its about showing some respect, and obviously, you dont have any. Just a kid who sits behind his computer, in his comfy chair, lookin at things through a computer screen with absolutely no idea of what really goes on and what people have to live through day to day. You wouldnt know about that now would you?
Naw, all you know how to do is talk @#@# and make your own excuses for every little thing that doesnt make sense in that tiny brain of yours.
Its one thing to talk abouta conspiracy theory, but its another thing to try n downgrade those people who have actually done something honorable.
You wouldnt know what heroism was if it B*slapped you in the face.
You are a disgrace to everyone who has put on a uniform.

Hows that for Hostile ?
Ooh Rah

reply to post by Common Good


Very hostile indeed. I wasn't talking $#!+. I see I touched a cord with you. You sir can't see the big picture. Soldiers are pawns and pawns are necessary to to capture the king, but who is playing the game? Not you and I.

reply to post by Common Good


Hi,


I would like to know what you thought about my post -was I wrong or was I wrong? LOL

I also have to say that my father was a decorated soldier - a war hero.

And I still don't understand anything, lol

Originally posted by Common Good
Hows that for Hostile ?
Ooh Rah

Yep, very. Not the good way to post around here.

Some of us here are older than your daddy and some of us here been in more wars then you can count. Show some respect, please...

I do disagree to some point with original post, but that is not a reason to attack poster himself.

I would like to voice the utmost respect that I have for those that are in the armed services and despite what you might think by saying "I did not ask to be protected" or whatever BS someone said earlier, I would love to see your face if one day the armed forces decided to down arms and let another army invade.

Truth is, most of you do not have a clue what you are talking about. Being in the army is not like playing Call of Duty 4 like you most probably do. A bullet in Call of Duty will make you have to respawn but having real bullets, tank shells, armed combatants coming at you WISHING THAT YOU WERE DEAD and will DO ANYTHING TO KILL YOU is not a nice reality to be faced with.
That is the reality of thousands of troops currently serving.

So stop discrediting their efforts from behind your PC you coward and show some god-damn respect for people who are putting their life on the line to uphold your freedom (and yes I am sure you will contest "freedom" but I would love to see how you react if the Taliban somehow took over your country). The individual believes that they are fighting and dying, to uphold your Constitution despite what plans the government might have for them. So rip chunks out of the government and not the individuals just because you cannot last five minutes in their shoes.
If you served a term in Iraq or Afghanistan I would like to see you come back to the US and act like it was easy or that you are not a "hero".

Without the troops of the UK and the US, I would be writing this in German.
I salute those that are currently serving under the hardships of war and wish them the best of luck and offer my respect and gratitude.