No matter what though guys,the pipes do belong to Russia.Ukranians can't do them anything they like...!

Anyway,before reading this i was really stunned since the only thing that i heard was that our gas is being cutted.I was stunned because i thought that Russia was responsible.If they're not they should take control of the pipes,simple as that.Noone should be able to fool around freely with them.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
No matter what though guys,the pipes do belong to Russia.Ukranians can't do them anything they like...!

The majority of the pipeline belongs to Gazprom, however I think a small portion may belong to Ukraine's Naftogaz. Naftogaz may also be the owner and operator of certain pumping/pressure stations and other crucial infrastructure along the way. Technically Ukraine has the power to shut down the pipeline, although that will be a severe violation of the contract. However it looks like they are abou to do exactly that.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
Anyway,before reading this i was really stunned since the only thing that i heard was that our gas is being cutted.I was stunned because i thought that Russia was responsible.If they're not they should take control of the pipes,simple as that.Noone should be able to fool around freely with them.

How can they take control of the pipes? Ukraine is a sovereign country, and it has the "right" to do anything it wants with any pipeline running through its territory. That is what makes this so complicated. Russia can't just go in and make them stop stealing gas or shutting down the pipeline.

I think it is Europeans and EU that really need to appeal to Ukraine to drop this idiocy. If Russia starts to make appeals or threats - you will have people around the world pointing fingers and saying that the evil commies are after Ukrainian freedoms or some similar #.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
I didn't know that Ukraine actually owned those pipes.This indeed complicates the situation.

It is even more complicated than that. It appears that the Ukrainian portion of the pipeline is actually owned by Gazprom, however it is operated by UkrTransNafta, which is an intermediary company run by Ukraine's Naftogaz. It gets down to the details in the contract, but UkrTransNafta has physical control over the pipeline, and thus does whatever it wants (or gets told by Ukrainian government) with it.

Originally posted by maloy

And Yuschenko says that Ukraine has already transfered a partial payment of $1.5 billion for Russian gas. However there is something shady about this as well. The transfer was made to RusUkr Energy Company which is a small shady intermediary somewhere in Western Europe.

...and controlled by Mogilevich. I bet he is tired of staying in prison in Moscow.

Originally posted by maloy
By the way I read that Germany has extensive reserves as well and is continuing to receive supplies through the Belarus pipeline. I am sure Germany's pipelines are linked with those of Bulgaria and other countries further south, so surely they can work out some sort of a deal.

For Germany and as a matter of fact the entire North-Western European countries it is not gonna be problematic. The Netherlands has the 2nd largest reserves in Europe, supplying the UK and Germany while Norway has the largest reserves and is geographically located in the same region.

In Budapest they've already ran out of gas as well as in some countries on the Balkan. Nice these Ukrainians...

No more gas here from 6.1. from 3p.m. CET!

It is becoming really ugly in some parts of country where people don't have alternative to gas!

The things will be even more worse as government is run by complete morons.

And Ukraine should ask their Western friends to pay their bills.

For one thing this is not so much about money as ego. Ukraine and Naftogas have the money to pay the bill - it's just that Ukrainian oligarchs want to hold on to this money as long as possible. Ukraine is playing these games more out of spite than out of financial necessity - they somehow feel entitled to receive gas at 1/3 of the market prices. The thing is this pipeline also runs through dozens of other European countries, and neither of them feels the same sense of entitlement.

And even if the money is paid, Ukraine and Gazprom still have not agreed to the 2009 supply contract - thus Ukraine may continue to keep the pipeline shut down. Ukraine has turned down Gazprom's offer to slightly raise 2009 prices, thus Ukraine officially is not entitled to receive any gas right now. The $2 billion debt only covers the past contract not the future.

This could potentially drag on for a while, but I think it is likely to end within a week. There is significant pressure on Ukraine and Gazprom now by the EU, and nobody really wants countries like Bulgaria to suffer.



By the way can anyone take a guess where the culprit of this mess, Yuschenko, is? He is on a skiing vacation, If somebody made that prick sit in an unheated house for a week maybe he would be a bit more concerned.

Originally posted by Mdv2
I hope it's not to cold in Serbia currently... I have a good friend living there by the way.

It is cold in all areas effected pretty much. Couldn't have happened at a worser time.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Perhaps Uncle Sam wouldn't mind printing 2,5 billion extra...

First the banks bailout, then the auto bailout, now the puppet-state bailout? US better invest in some money printing machines.

Actually even the full payment of debt might not help. In retaliation Ukraine now demands to raise gas transport prices by an absurd 300%, and Russia replied by offering to raise Ukraine's gas prices by 250%. This is completely rediculous and does not bring any resolution closer.

KIEV, January 8 (RIA Novosti) - European Union experts will arrive in Ukraine Friday to monitor Russian gas transit to Europe, the Ukrainian government said Thursday.

"Today the European Union adopted Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko's proposal to send to Ukraine experts who will study the reasons for disruption of Russian natural gas supplies to the EU and will establish who is responsible for that. Technical experts will arrive in Ukraine on Friday," the government press service said.

Russia says Ukraine's guarantees of unhindered gas transit are one of the conditions for resumption of gas supplies to Ukrainian borders.

Ukrainian energy company Naftogaz chief Oleh Dubyna said at gas talks in Brussels Thursday that Ukraine is ready to allow EU experts into its territory for them to control Russian gas transit, including when the gas enters Ukraine and when it leaves the country.

Ukraine has not allowed independent observers to its gas measuring stations since January 1.

Previous talks between Russia and Ukraine ended on New Year's Eve with no agreement on how to settle Kiev's gas debts or on a contract for 2009 deliveries.

Russian energy giant Gazprom halted on Wednesday gas supplies to Ukraine for transit to Europe. According to the company, the latest check established that Ukraine was not carrying any gas to Europe despite Russia's move to continue gas supplies to Ukraine through the Sudzha station.

Kiev closed on Wednesday the fourth, final gas pipeline pumping Russian gas to Europe. The latest closure added Austria, the Czech Republic, Romania and Slovakia to the growing list of countries receiving no Russian gas.

The three other pipelines were closed on Tuesday, ending deliveries via Ukraine to Hungary, Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, and Bosnia and seriously disrupting supplies to Italy, Poland, France and Slovenia.

Gazprom earlier accused Ukraine of stealing more than 86 million cubic meters of gas since the start of the year, but Kiev denied the accusations saying that Russia was trying to discredit Ukraine as a reliable gas transit partner.