Why is southern pride considered racism?

Yes I believe the Confederate flag is guilty by association,whenever you see those toothless klansman together there is usually a Confederate flag in the picture,interesting group,when one leaves the IQ of the rest actually goes up

reply to post by Oldtimer2


All right then, I can no longer support out nations flag as its predecessor stands for oppression. So now that our nations flag is guilty by association who else is with me.

You see just how ridiculous to say the cause is guilt by association. Most people here will think that I am anti American for what I just said, but it is just as true as saying the confederate flag is guilty by association.

But thanks for your comment.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by Ant4AU]

I seriously don't understand how the Confederate Flag got associated with racism. Damn ignorant Yankees.

reply to post by Ant4AU

Of course, one minor irony is that the rectangular stars and bars flag was never the flag of the Confederacy. The second Confed flag had a square stars & bars in the canton of a white flag. The last flag was the same with a red fly.

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
Yes I believe the Confederate flag is guilty by association,whenever you see those toothless klansman together there is usually a Confederate flag in the picture,interesting group,when one leaves the IQ of the rest actually goes up

Guilt by association?
There is not a person in this country or the world even who is not guilty of some horrific crime against humanity by association.

Your statement is one I would expect from intelligence challenged product of the United States education system and American media.

Have you actually done any research of the KKK? Have you actually looked at photographs of Klansmen, especially during the civil rights era?
(See links in my post below.)

I think if you had, you would have discovered that the KKK displayed the flag of the United States of America (Stars and Stripes, Old Glory) just as often... likely more often than the battle flag of the Confederate States of America (Stars and Bars, Southern Cross).

Toothless?

It seems obvious to me that you are full of sterotypical language and prejudice yourself. Perhaps you should at least try and hide that fact the next time you decide to go about propagating these myths that you have been led to believe.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by slimpickens93]

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic





I seriously don't understand how the Confederate Flag got associated with racism. Damn ignorant Yankees.

www.southernmessenger.org...
www.law.du.edu...
www.previews1.com...
americanhistory.si.edu...
personal.georgiasouthern.edu...
www.freemasonry.bcy.ca...
ccpl.lib.co.us...
www.assumption.edu...

Tell me about it.




[edit on 4-1-2009 by slimpickens93]

reply to post by slimpickens93


Star for you slim for posting those pics. It goes to show that people just want to vilify symbols and ideals so they just jump on one side and forget that there is another. There will always be good and bad tied together. There is no such thing as clear cut good pr bad. The world is gray and that’s where we live.

reply to post by Ant4AU

The problem with "southern pride" is the fact that in 1860, the South was right about all the issues of the Civil War, except slavery. Slavery was so wrong that it became the focus of the Civil War. Practically all the slaves were of one race, while their masters where of another. That is why you get labeled "racist", even if you don't care about race and don't wish to be a slaveholder.

Your "Confederate flag" is also called the "Rebel flag". As such, it is a symbol of rebellion and has no right to be flown anywhere in the United States.

My family lost two cousins in Andersonville POW Camp. For those who don't know, the survival rates at Dachau and Auschwitz weren't much worse.

[edit on 4-1-2009 by CharlesMartel]

reply to post by CharlesMartel


As I have noticed on this site that the idea of a rebellion against the oppressive government would be welcomed. So actually any symbol of rebellion would be viewed as good thing right about now. Besides, with us being on this site aren’t we rebellion against the norm. Most people are led to believe that conspiracy theorist are nuts, so we all have a little rebel in us.

Originally posted by Ant4AU
reply to post by slimpickens93

 

Star for you slim for posting those pics. It goes to show that people just want to vilify symbols and ideals so they just jump on one side and forget that there is another. There will always be good and bad tied together. There is no such thing as clear cut good pr bad. The world is gray and that’s where we live.

I dunno...
Symbols stand for something. That's why VERY few people today run about waving a hammer & sickle flag or a swastika (unless you happen to be Hindu). Face it, the confederate flag was associated with racism and slavery. These were the 'ideals' which the confederate army sought to protect militarily. I'm baffled as to why some die hards still need this insignia, and why there is no alternative symbol for the South.

reply to post by civilized mammal


If the war was truley about slavery as many of you claim. Then you realize the we here in the south do not like to let go of what people think we should let go of. So there is your answer.

Originally posted by Ant4AU
reply to post by civilized mammal

 

If the war was truley about slavery as many of you claim. Then you realize the we here in the south do not like to let go of what people think we should let go of. So there is your answer.

Neither did the Japanese emperor, Mussolini and Hitler want to let go. That doesn't mean they should've been allowed to keep what these examples perceived to be as 'theirs'.

As a born and bred native Southerner currently living in Communist California (not by choice), I felt compelled to reply to this thread. I don't remember who it was that stated earlier in this thread that the Confederate Battle Flag was representative of racism due to spin by elite liberalism, but THANK YOU. You, my friend, have explained it perfectly. The War of Northern Aggression was NOT fought over slavery, but over STATE'S RIGHTS. I grew up just outside of Richmond, VA, the capital of our beloved CSA. In my home state, there's plenty of battlefields, museums, places of REAL HISTORY that give you practically a spoken historical account from that time period. Forget that garbage that they teach you in school; it's there only because what's in textbooks nowadays are due to the personal politics of textbook companies (the two biggest being headquartered in New York and California. Enough said). I grew up with a Confederate Battle Flag (Rebel Flag for you uninitiated) tacked on my wall, and I decided on my own that Gen. Robert E. Lee was one of the greatest statesmen that ever lived. The War of Northern Aggression was in fact a legal remedy for the situation at the time. If you ever bother to read the Constitution of the United States, the second paragraph reads: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness". Therefore we seceded legally in the manner required by the Constitution. And in doing so, we came up with our own flag, the Stars and Bars, which was kind of a shout out to our original country. We also came up with the Battle Flag, which is Saint Andrew's cross, with a star repesentative of each state involved in the country. This flag, through spin of the media and affirmative action groups such as the NAACP, have come to view it as a symbol of hatred. If this symbol of our heritage was such an item of hate, I never would have had one on my wall growing up as a kid, I never would have come to revere Gen. Robert E. Lee, and I would never have gotten one tattooed on my arm, to have a piece of home wherever in the world I might end up. The rebel flag, or any variation thereof, is NOT a symbol of evil, it's a symbol of freedom for oppression, and in a lot of cases, a piece of home. I have one on my arm for life, I have one hanging on my wall, and I will NEVER let anyone convince me that I'm racist or a bigot because of it. I grew up believing in standing up for what you believe in, and doing what's right, which is exactly what that flag stood for. Does that mean I'm narrow-minded and aren't open to other people's ideas and viewpoints? Absolutely not. My best friend in the world is black, and he grew up believing the exact same thing I did. My girlfriend of the past 5 years is from Boston, and even though she thinks differently than I do, we make it work. She might not LIKE the fact that I'm as proud of my heritage as I am, but she at least RESPECTS it. Unfortunately, it's through the actions of the KKK and other hate-mongers that our beloved flag has become viewed as a sign of racism and intolerance. I'm the 4xgreat-grandson of a slave owner, and when they were freed, they took his last name, and lived on his land. Whenever I go back home to VA, I STILL make it a point to go and visit the descendants of my 4xgreat-grandfather's slaves, and and you know what? We call each other FAMILY.

i]Originally posted by civilized mammal


Neither did the Japanese emperor, Mussolini and Hitler want to let go. That doesn't mean they should've been allowed to keep what these examples perceived to be as 'theirs'.

[ediComparing the south to ruthless dictators and socialists hell bent on world domination. Bit of a stretch. The South just wanted the south. They didn’t care to change the views of the north. They wanted to be free from a tyrannical federal government that was oppressing thing with outrageous taxes, and taking away the tights of the state that the constitution had given them. It wasn’t because of socialism or communism, they would have had a democracy as the Union did.

The Union was the oppressive fascist. And since the end of the Northern Aggression it has not changed. America still believes it should be the one world power. Spreading it’s doctrine of ‘democracy’. That most people, due to election scandals, has realized is a joke. So if you really think about it today in this age there really should be some more Confederate sympathizers, in my opinion.

The south stood for rights of the people. They were against a federal government with complete control of their day to day life. My question to the Union sympathizers is why did we ever leave England? Why didn’t we just stay under the control of a King? That is basically what is going on in today’s federal government, and what was going on at the time of Northern Aggression.

I thank all who have join on our discussion. And would like to state that I am not trying to change any ones views but was just interested in the views of the members here on ATS. And I would like to apologize to the Mods because I am sure this thread has put a little more work on them.


[edit on 5-1-2009 by Ant4AU]

[edit on 5-1-2009 by Ant4AU]

Originally posted by sciencenewby
if thousands joined the army to fight the south they mustve had some good reason to risk their lives.

correct me if im wrong.

(on a side note they may have done it for fresh food and water and wages? but that doesnt seem like a good enough reason to go into one of the deadliest wars of the era)

Just a counterpoint:

Black Confederate loyalty was pervasive and real. American historians failed to recognize this loyalty. "By the summer of 1861 Southern blacks who supported and allied themselves with the Confederacy were looking to volunteer" [22]. Despite the Confederate government's refusal to admit blacks in the army, six Southern states did so otherwise, mostly consisting of state militias. Eyewitness accounts by officers in the Federal army offer some evidence of African American participation on the battlefields for the South. Records show that New York officers on patrol reported they were attacked near New Market, Virginia, by Confederate cavalry and a group of 700-armed blacks on December 22, 1861. The Northerners killed six of the blacks before retreating; officers later swore out affidavits that they were attacked by blacks and later complained: "If they fight with Negroes, why should we not fight with them too?"

Why would blacks support, and possibly want to fight for, the Confederacy? One is money. The pay rate for the laborers was greater than that of the white soldier's pay rate. The black laborers were paid 30 dollars a month while the Confederate soldiers made only 11 dollars. By volunteering their service to the South these blacks earned enough money for themselves and their families back home. Blacks, both free and slave, were able to make more money by trading whiskey, food, horses and other possessions they might steal through their foraging missions. There is a story of a servant who was captured by the Yankees, stole two horses, and got back to his Confederate line. When he got back he sold one horse for fifty dollars and kept the other one for himself.

It is often forgotten that while slavery was among the major causes of the Civil War, its abolition was not the original goal of the North. President Lincoln sated he didn't want to interfere with slavery in the states where it already existed. Many Federal soldiers felt the same way, proclaiming if the war was one turned into a fight for abolitionism they would stop fighting. Faced with this attitude from the North black Southerners had no reason but to be loyal to their homes. "The slaves had nothing to gain form a Union victory, and free black men might actually stand to lose such rights and property they already had"

Above quotes are from:
www.stonewallbrigade.com...

This is not the only source. You can do a search for more, but in all instances the South had black soldiers before the North. One black volunteer militia in Louisiana even had black officers, something the northern black regiments never had.

Originally posted by civilized mammalI dunno...
Symbols stand for something. That's why VERY few people today run about waving a hammer & sickle flag or a swastika (unless you happen to be Hindu). Face it, the confederate flag was associated with racism and slavery. These were the 'ideals' which the confederate army sought to protect militarily. I'm baffled as to why some die hards still need this insignia, and why there is no alternative symbol for the South.

Stop propagating. Did you even look at the photos in the links I posted?


It's funny how most Northerners associate the Confederacy with racism, while most Southereners do not.

Not to mention that slavery and racism are two very different things.

The REASON the "Rebel" flag is associated with racism and slavery is due to the continuous propaganda and oppression of traditional Southern people, culture, and politics.

It wouldn't matter if we created alternative symbols, those who oppress us would find a way to villify those too. Look at how most of the country makes fun of country music and farmers. They call us hicks and inbreeders and trailer trash. As far as most of America is concerned Southern white is the new black.

The KKK had several symbols too.... I don't see many southereners going around with white hoods or nooses or burning crosses tattooed on their arms.

You people pick the one symbol dearest to us and villify it.

I could go on and say that the whole KKK/racist movement was a itnitiated by the Union government in order to extend the occupation of the southeren states, like a "false flag operation".

To whoever said that the Confederate flag is a sign of rebellion and should not be allowed in America..... lol..... lol.

Do a little research on an event commonly known as the American Revolution. It was born from the same basic ideals as was the sucession of the southern states in 1861. And guess what? The inhabitants of the 13 colonies who supported revolution were called REBELS.

The flag of United States of America was a sign of rebellion, although it's appearance has changed over the years. So if you want to ban Southern Pride, you had better ban American pride while you are at it.

Just because we lost the war and are still occupied and oppressed by the United States, does not mean that we do not still have the same political ideals and hunger for liberty. And thats what our 'rebel" flag means.

The United States may eventually oppress the south enough to destroy all the honorable history of the south, but they will never destroy the ideals of liberty and freedom.

When the oppressed become the oppressors, the newly oppressed will rise and claim their liberty. Though they may fail, they will be heard.

The only difference between the USA and the CSA is the USA won.
It's unfortunate that the USA became the very beast it was intent on escaping.

reply to post by mrwupy


posted by the Cassandra Complex

Mrwupy, thank you! You have helped me understand an issue I've been trying to nail down for some time. The flag representing the Confederate States has been a thorny issue in the side of many African-Americans. Still, even when dealing with something you may not or accept, it does a bigger disservice to yourself when you don't know what you are talking about. Mrwupy is right. I will now offer my respects to those that carried the Battle Flag. Those that carried that flag were SOLDIERS and deserve the respect WE AS AMERICAN's offer soldiers - whether you approved of their fight or not.

reply to post by truth_seeker3


Actually, you guys are the ones with the brainwashing and propaganda. You take the half-truth, mix in a few "reliable" quotes and seriously take things out of historical context and accuracy. I will never take anything you guys say seriously. Its time we place some real #'s down.

Only a handful of whites lived in Grecian-pillared mansions. Below the 1,733 families in 1850 who owned a hundred or more slaves were the less wealthy slave-owners They totalled some 345,000 families, representing 1,725,000 white persons. Over two thirds of these families- 255,268 in all- owned fewer than ten slaves each. All told, about one third of white southerners owned slaves OR BELONGED TO A SLAVEOWNING FAMILY/ HOUSEHOLD.

6,120,825, two thirds of all southern whites, had no dealings with the slave system at all. All these whites without slaves had no direct stake in the preservation of slavery, yet they were among the stoutest defenders of the slave system. Why? The carrot on the stick ever dangling before their eyes was the hope of buying a slave or two and of parlaying their paltry holdings onto riches- all in accord with the American dream of upward social mobility. They took fierce pride in their presumed racial superiority, which would be watered down if the slaves were free. Many of the poorer whites were hardly better off economically than the slaves; some, indeed, were not so well-off. But even the most wretched whites could still take perverse comfort from the knowledge that they outranked someone in status: the still more wretched African-American slave. Thus did the logic of economics join with the illogic of racism in buttressing the slave system.

No, slavery played a HUGE part in the war, not directly though. The issue was states rights vs. preservation of the union at first. Without slavery, you wouldn't have- large-scale repelling of European immigrants, low industrial demand, one-crop economy, differentiation of economies, planter aristocracy, abolitionism, fugitive slave laws, free-soiler/ Republican party, Southern-Democratic party, and ultimately SECESSION.

If one looks at the confederate flag and considers it racist, THEY ARE NOT ignorant, wrong, brainwashed, ect. THEY ARE historically justifiable and have every right to think that way.

THey do not however have the right to assume someone as being racist merely because they wave the flag. You guys are the ones who are brainwashed with biased uninsightful American history. You hold onto your misguided pride for other reasons like ancestry. Its not your fault you were born into the bitter section of this yankee nation, and feel disgusted at the flags they put in your hands, taxes they make you pay, and horrible truths about your beloved confederation of virtue they make you learn.

You bigots.