Do we know who would know?

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posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 01:02 PM
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I just wanted to ask those members who believe that 9/11 was an "inside" job a question.

Who would actually know the truth?

Has anyone identified any specific people that would be aware of the whole picture/scope from start to finish and convey this information should they choose or forced to be forthcoming?

For example, would Cheney or Rumsfeld know?

This is by no means a loaded question to challenge those who believe in a conspiracy.
I ask only because I am curious.

I have always hesitated to post in this forum as I know folks can get very passionate. As some of you might know I was living in the West Village at the time and lost many friends and neighbors, so the very discussion is a difficult one for me. However, as time passes I find myself more able to discuss this issue without getting emotional. So take this question as simply a beginner's first inquiry into this subject.

I know it is a complicate question, in many ways it is akin to asking who was behind the attacks, but if anyone has any theories as to specific people, ie not just say "neocons," I would appreciate it.

Thanks.




posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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Undoubtedly there are people who knew the whole plan A to Z, but they would be very few. I'm guessing Cheney would be one who would have a pretty good grasp of everything down to the nuts and bolts level. Others in that category are probably members of a group around him.

Other higher ups wouldn't need or want to know every detail. I'm betting that people in the CFR and the Israeli government or intelligence services knew that there was a big coordinated operation to be conducted on 9/11, but they probably didn't know every detail.

After that, you get people on the inside who knew something was going to happen, maybe only knew about the part they were connected to. There was a story circulating about a Navy Seal who told family members to stay out of Manhattan on the 11th. There are other stories of that sort.

After that you have people who were not on the inside but who were close enough to the action to know that events were not unfolding in the normal way and who in retrospect may have put two and two together to realize that some kind of insider chicanery was going on. I believe there are Air Traffic Controllers in that category.

After that you have unwitting witnesses to events that contradict the official story and there are quite a few of those. The lady who saw the small white jet at Shanksville and the lady interviewed on CNN who confirmed an explosion, probably in the North Tower prior to the plane impact.

After that you have members of the media who heard explosions, etc., who must have been ordered to follow the official line in their post 9/11 coverage and who would be thus aware of a level of cover up going on.


[edit on 30-12-2008 by ipsedixit]



posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 


Thanks ipsedixit for your considered response.

My thoughts on this is that if 9/11 was an inside job it is something that must have been in the works for a relatively long time. I imagine that the people behind this must have started planning something soon after Bush senior lost his re-election bid to Clinton thus putting an eight year halt to their original designs. They wanted America back fighting wars in the middle east and 9/11 would give them the excuse to go back to finish the job they started during the Bush senior admin.

So I imagine several people must have been involved in the planning and oversight of this project.

So who?

Perhaps this is a question no one has the answer to. It seems to me that whilst there is great info coming out of the 9/11 "truth" movement as to how this might have been carried out, there is little consensus as to who are the specific players behind it. Terms like NWO/Illuminati/Neocons/Israel/MiC are always put forth but always with anecdotal rationalizations behind them.

Again keep in mind I am new to this conversation so perhaps I am looking for information in the wrong place.



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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None of these answer the question. They are too broad, general, and vague. YOU CTs are always making accusations, but nobody has been taken to court. The OP wants to know who specifically knew of the attacks, and you CTs, true to form, offer nothing more than nebulous guesses, and names of groups. If I were you all, I would be hiding my name, face, and identity too, but that is not the way I do it because I am not you all, and I have integrity in my words.

I come along, and tell you Ie had known pretty much detail about the attacks since 1997, and you go on the attack, say I am lying, and question my word without any consideration of the evidence. You will insist for years that government have been covering up the facts of the attacks. Then, if I tell you I contacted certain persons in government with detailed information about the attacks, and you contact them for verification, and they deny it, you would insists it proves I am lying, not them. Hopefully, one day you will come to understand why the attacks happened in the first place. It was terrible, but nobody would cooperate with me in any way; not before 9-11 and not after.

And my name is not neocon, illuminati, Mossad, or any of the rest. My name is John Shaw. I am from Florida. I do not have to hide behind the distance and anonymity of an internet forum to say what I have to say because I know what I am talking about, which obviously is a great deal more than anyone else on this forum can say where primary source prior knowledge of the attacks of 9-11 is the subject.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by Jailhouserock]



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by Jailhouserock
 


Hey John,

I know and see that there is much animosity in the 9/11 forum which is part of the reason I have shied away in the past.

Just so you know I have no position on this issue, I am just at the beginning of my inquiry.

Do you mind sharing with me the knowledge of which you speak of as it pertains to my original question.

Thanks



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Jailhouserock
 


Hey John,

I know and see that there is much animosity in the 9/11 forum which is part of the reason I have shied away in the past.

Just so you know I have no position on this issue, I am just at the beginning of my inquiry.

Do you mind sharing with me the knowledge of which you speak of as it pertains to my original question.

Thanks


I have heard it all before.

You were asking about any specific person who might have known the attacks were going to happen. I answered I did know beginning in 1997. I told about 130 people about it prior to 9-11. While my telling others did not necessarly constitute their knowing, some I told were required by law to pass the information to the FBI, but most likely did not. In fact, their attitudes were questionable. One law guy even made fun of me in a mocking kind of way when I was giving him plenty of detailed information
in early 2001.

It is not that I mind sharing the details. It is quite lengthy, the details that is, 90 pages and 54,000 words.



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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9/11 MADNESS
post removed because of personal attacks

Click here to learn more about this warning.



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Jailhouserock
Yes, I do mind. Who do you think you are fooling?





posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
I just wanted to ask those members who believe that 9/11 was an "inside" job a question.

Who would actually know the truth?

Has anyone identified any specific people that would be aware of the whole picture/scope from start to finish and convey this information should they choose or forced to be forthcoming?

For example, would Cheney or Rumsfeld know?

This is by no means a loaded question to challenge those who believe in a conspiracy.
I ask only because I am curious.

I have always hesitated to post in this forum as I know folks can get very passionate. As some of you might know I was living in the West Village at the time and lost many friends and neighbors, so the very discussion is a difficult one for me. However, as time passes I find myself more able to discuss this issue without getting emotional. So take this question as simply a beginner's first inquiry into this subject.

I know it is a complicate question, in many ways it is akin to asking who was behind the attacks, but if anyone has any theories as to specific people, ie not just say "neocons," I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


Nobody knows the entire scope of 9-11. 9-11 is like a big puzzle.You get pieces of information here and there, put them together, and try to form as much of the total picture as you can. And you are in the wrong place if you have come to a forum such as ATS looking for the truth about 9-11. However, some posters here raise some good points. They are too fanatic about things they do not really know. I would never insist I was so right about a subject of which I had no first-hand knowledge. However, in the case of 9-11, I had known about it since 1997, and had told about 130 people about it before it happened. That is first-hand knowledge. That is what I mean. Otherwise, I have no real interest in the events of 9-11. As a matter of fact, I thought the hit on the pentagon was appropriate, except it should have been worse. If I had not found out it was going to happen years before it happened, I would never have come on this or any other forum. And quite frankly, if what I have encountered on internet forums is a good representative example of American attitudes in general, I am vindicated in having held back from doing a lot more than I could have doneto get the word out before 9-11.

Much of the truth about 9-11 has been made public for years, but some has been hidden and obfuscated. Most posters on these internet forums give the search for truth a bad name. Tell them you knew about the attacks prior to 9-11, and they go nuts. Then come the accusations, denials, sometimes filth. Hell, they had it coming, and they got what they had coming despite numerous, persistent warnings. And if internet posters are any example, they deserved it.

9-11 Sic semper tyrannis.

And I remind anyone and everyone, the authorities, your paid protectors, refused to cooperate with me in any way whatsoever.


[edit on 31-12-2008 by Jailhouserock]



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Jailhouserock
 


Hey John,

I know and see that there is much animosity in the 9/11 forum which is part of the reason I have shied away in the past.

Just so you know I have no position on this issue, I am just at the beginning of my inquiry.

Do you mind sharing with me the knowledge of which you speak of as it pertains to my original question.

Thanks


Persons I told about the coming attacks of 9-11 in varying degrees of detail, beginning around September of 1997, and continuing to and through the night of September 10, 2001. In as near chronological order as I was able to remember. Source---Discovery 9-11: Genesis of American Terror.
Copyright John Gobin Shaw 2006.

Mary Conley 1996, exception, one other there too.
Students at Yeungjin Junior College 1997,
Larry W. Bowman, PH.D. 1997,
Ken Biondi 1997,
Professors Wendy and James Olmsted 1997, 2000, 2001,
Doris Hoffman 1997 or 98,
Xiang Li Zhu 1997-2001,
Rufus W. (Dub) Davis 1998,
Officer Danny Carey 1998,
Brian_____1999,
3-4 guys in youth hostel in Santa Cruz, CA 1999,
passengers and driver on Greyhound bus coastal CA 1999,
Stacie (Steve) Homer 1999-00,
Andrew Campbell 1999-00,
Students and teachers in Jinan, China 2000,
Xiang Li Zhu’s uncle Dec. 2000,
Jeff Shaw December 2000,
911 Stuart FL early 2001,
4 persons at church dinner 2001,
Mr. Osborne of FL DOC early 2001,
Craig Newbold 2001,
Nurse at Martin Memorial Hospital on or around May 22, 2001,
Eva Schulman June or July 2001,
6 persons in Shepard Park August 2001 (Robert Dixon and Martin Wrigley),
Some govt. or law enforcement number Fort Pierce, FL night of 10 Sept. 2001, possibly ninth, about 8:30 pm from phone booth near Dunkin Donut between I-95 and turnpike on Okeechobee Rd. OTHERS.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by Jailhouserock]

[edit on 1-1-2009 by Jailhouserock]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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reply to post by Jailhouserock
 


If this is a list of people who were warned about a impending 9/11 attack that was some sort of "inside job" deal...are any of those listed in any position to have been able to do anything about it?

Why not speak to the news networks, late night talk programs like C2C, talk to reporters and writters for major newspapers, you know people that are in a position to get the word out and actually bring major radar attention to the information?

To me, the list doesnt have any listing of people with ability to do anything other than being listed on some guest list at a costume party or a motel. If this information was true, and of course would have been highly important, I just dont see how any of those listed, cept maybe the officer, that could have done much about it except to possibly consider at the time you were speaking to them, that they were listening to someone with a very big story...comparable to a story about how pigs can fly.

I dont dismiss the possibility that 9/11 was some sort of elaborately planned occurance, given the many things government is known to have done and then deny. Governments do that all the time. Deny is the first rule in their little black book they carry around in their back pocket as well as the title of their little book.

But that list just doesnt contain anything that I would consider as anyone being in a position to have done something to possibly have prevented 9/11 from occuring.

Even if the information you had was not about an inside job and was information about a terrorist plot instead, those on that list still dont have much in the way of persuasion or political power or major media radar penetration to have prevented or even as little as delayed what happend on 9/11.

Sorry but I call it as I see it.



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 2-1-2009 by RFBurns]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:58 AM
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FRBurns:

Any way you want to cut it. I tend in most cases to agree with you. But those were the people I told. I did have some e-mail with Governor JEB in Florida when I was in China. I told him I had some information that just about anyone would find very interesting and useful. I was getting ready to lay everything out on the table in exchange for an immigration visa for my pregnant Chinese wife and our daughter Mary born in Korea. I got the visa obviously through extraordinary influence that was not my own. I also got a letter from INS saying they intended making my children wards of the state if I brought them to the US. At that, I withheld the information.
JEB came to my hometown and made a speech atop the steps of the gazebo next to the court house. I saw him there, and kept on going. I never did give him the information so he did not make it onto the list.

Consider Larry W. Bowman PH.D.
Senior professor at YJC.
Veteran US Army, Vietnam.
Master Sargent Army, Captain Air Force reserves
Member National Guard called back to active service after 9-11.
10 years police department Cincinnati, Ohio
Private investigator domestic and international, collaboration with federal investigations
Security officer for government Kwajaleen Atoll, Marshall Islands
Professor of Criminology University Great Falls, Montana.

Osborne spent his life in law enforcement, was an aviator himself, and was a detective for something like 25 years.

All anybody had to do was follow up. I had a lot more to say, but most everybody did not want to listen to me. Government were much more interested in kidnapping my children than they were in listening to perfectly good information. I was looking forward to the attacks after the letter from INS.

As for contacting mainstream media, I have done so for years. They do not even answer. They have been asserting for years nobody could have known the attacks were going to happen, a totally
unsupportable stateme

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Jailhouserock]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 09:30 AM
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FRBurns:

I was not particularly trying to prevent the attacks. I was just telling others about them before they happened. Any of them could have contacted the authorities who refused to investigate or follow up.
I could have done a great deal more to get the word out before 9-11, but I had been messed over and alienated by what I consider to be a partly illegitimate government and an indifferent society. Why should I have shown consideration for others which they most certainly did not show for me? I did think about taking extraordinary measures to make the attack plans widely known, but I just could not see doing that after all the crimes committed against me.

If you get screwed around enough, you will want retribution. You will go along with just about anything to get it. In the case of 9-11, it was very rough justice or none at all. Sorry about the civilian casualties, but that seems to be the norm in modern warfare. Extended efforts were made to settle matters legally and equitably, all of which were ingored and ridiculed by your system in America. You had better keep an eye on that government of yours. They are bucking to get you nuked, which is what will happen if your well earned enemies can get the technology, learn how to use it, and get it into a large American city. The same scenario would probably repeat itself with govt. foreknowledge, and the people doing nothing about it except pissing and moaning on internet forums, and denying the truth when somebody who knows tries to tell them something.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by Jailhouserock
 



Why did you know about the coming attacks as early as 1997? Were you involved in the planning of them? If not, how were you made aware of what was going to happen?



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by ziggystar60
 


From what I get from reading this:
www.newsforum.com...
and things he's said in other threads here, he is not taking credit for specifically planning 911 per se', but he did come up with the concept (of planes flying into buildings) to seek retribution against the state of Florida for gripes he had with them.
He claims only to have had email conversations with person's in Saudi Arabia who were sympathetic to his concerns or supposedly shared his concerns about things American, and who allegedly expressed some sort of commitment to carry thru some sort of similar plan.
He claims not to know all the details, but seems to want to share in the "glory" or afterglow of the actual event.
One wonders why he was not at some point ushered to Guantanimo if what he says is true?
Ironically, I think most here would think the U.S. government had more to do with 9-11 than Saudi Arabia anyway. His manuscript might make a good movie plot, and as such he may one day get the attention he seeks.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by ziggystar60
 


From what I get from reading this:
www.newsforum.com...
and things he's said in other threads here, he is not taking credit for specifically planning 911 per se', but he did come up with the concept (of planes flying into buildings) to seek retribution against the state of Florida for gripes he had with them.
He claims only to have had email conversations with person's in Saudi Arabia who were sympathetic to his concerns or supposedly shared his concerns about things American, and who allegedly expressed some sort of commitment to carry thru some sort of similar plan.
He claims not to know all the details, but seems to want to share in the "glory" or afterglow of the actual event.
One wonders why he was not at some point ushered to Guantanimo if what he says is true?
Ironically, I think most here would think the U.S. government had more to do with 9-11 than Saudi Arabia anyway. His manuscript might make a good movie plot, and as such he may one day get the attention he seeks.


You do seem to have a fair grasp of my story. I do not think I am sharing in glory, however. One wonders why after six months of precisely worded terrorist threats, my train being derailed killing 18 and wounding 65, and the bombing the next morning of the train station killing 86 and wounding over 200, the two self proclaimed terrorists in Europe who openly threatened witnesses and made the threats were not arrested and prosecuted. I mean, after all, 50 to 100 felony terrorist threats lining up very well with what happened later. You think I am not going to try and get something done about that?

You are exactly right. I came up with a terrorist scenario. They did seem sympathetic. They indicated their agreement to do it. I took their word for it. Obviously, somebody did it.

You have to consider. I was born and raised in this small town in south Florida. Numerous crimes were committed against me, some misdemeanors, some felonies. The authorities never would function on my behalf. In fact, they protected from arrest and prosecution serial felony offenders in the community. Years ago my two year old daughter was harmed and completely disabled for life. When I came back from China in 2000-01 some thugs harmed my 10-11 month old baby daughter, and to this day they have never been arrested. Yes, I knew about the attacks. I cannot say they were totally uncalled for.

I don't know who you people think you are, but if you mess with me, I might not do anything immediately, but I will be looking for ways to get you back, and if I can find a way, even if it is something like 9-11, well, let's just say it is much better for your system to do its job like it is supposed to do. That way we do not have people such as myself looking for any way there is to hit them back.

What you call gripes are not gripes. They are legitimate complaints that have been completely ignored. They can ignore me, but they could not ignore their towers crashing down on 9-11. It is a sin and a shame that such methods have to be used. When you have a system run by arrogant rich people who think they are above the law it seems violence is the only thing they understand, a visible horrific, tangible threat against their interests.

Some time before the attack against the Alfred P. Murrah building in OKC, two others and I met two men in a donut shop in Stuart, FL. It was 2-3 am. The tall thin one kept talking about making a fertilizer bomb and attacking government, which he insisted repeatedly they were definitely going to do. Tim Mcveigh's mother lived in Fort Pierce, about 15 miles from there. I think it was McVeigh because I think he said to remember the word Invictus before they got up and left. He never mentioned Oklahoma City or any specific target

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Jailhouserock]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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The point of the story about meeting Mcveigh, if indeed it was McVeigh is this. If the corrupt system completely refuses to cooperate with me, I reserve to do the same where their / your interests are concerned. I never contacted the law about the conversation in the donut shop, and I doubt if anyone else did either.

When you serially offend someone, you had bettrer make sure he will not be holding a trump card over you some day like OKC or 9-11.

It really is a shame. Some of my ancestors were the founding fathers of this nation. I have read their proclamations. What we have today in the USA is a far cry from what they intended in many ways.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by Jailhouserock
 


You have been proven a fraud in a pass posted thread by Cammronfox!
Why do you continue to post lies?



[edit on 1/2/2009 by cashlink]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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AHEM, Please keep things civil.

Discuss the topic, not eachother. Further generalized attacks on members just because they disagree will result in stronger staff action against offenders.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 07:53 PM
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Right, we seem to have gotten side tracked.

Notwithstanding Mr. Shaw's personal account, could you please help me with my original question from the OP?

Thanks.





 
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