Wall of Israel

Before the state of Israel was formed the Jews were bombing hotels and british establishments trying to fight for their cause... and now the palestinians are doing it to them and its wrong?

I say give the Palestinians as much funding as Israel gets and then we'll see how things go...

Its #ed its illegal to fund Palestine but legal to fund Israel, coz i would be sending funds to Arafat if i could

As harsh as it may sound, kill 'em all. Its one less problem in the world. Of course a million more will sprout up, oh well. The manipulation of truth to justify one's "plight" is just wrong - too bad the whole world does it.

I've always wanted to have a totally self-sustained underground home. That way, people could walk all over me without knowing it.

I say give the Palestinians as much funding as Israel gets and then we'll see how things go...

Hell yea...kill'em all...let GOD sort it out...

Its #ed its illegal to fund Palestine but legal to fund Israel, coz i would be sending funds to Arafat if i could

Dude...I can provide you a multiple of address and organization that would gladly take your "funding" in the nmae of Arafat.....just let me know....I'm sure his wife will look forward to the 'few bucks' you send!
Arafat is worth hundreds of millions and yet you want to send him more...knock yourself out dude.


As to equal funding....one is a state and the other isn't, is one reason.
ANother would be that funding to the Palestinians, even by the EU, is dropping because the funds were intended to help the Palestinian people...but research has shown that the funding was actually being diverted to Islamic Jihad and Hamas to fund more terrorist attacks.

You guys really need to start reading so books rather than comics.


seekerof

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by AceOfBase

No but they were killing Jews.

Who cares?

Hitler was killing 6 million Jews but when the Palestinians do it it's more public because of their "Jihad"

Give me a break.

Again, your confusion over Jihad and Hirabah is astounding. Do you know what Jihad is? How it is sanctioned or allowed? Just who can allow it or authorize it?
Jihad my ass, more like Hirabah. How about you give us a break with the half-truths again?
Islamic Perspective


seekerof

but research has shown that the funding was actually being diverted to Islamic Jihad and Hamas to fund more terrorist attacks.

Wow...I don't think Mrs. asianX cares about this, it's all about how bad we Americans are...

Originally posted by EmbryonicEssence
As harsh as it may sound, kill 'em all. Its one less problem in the world. Of course a million more will sprout up, oh well. The manipulation of truth to justify one's "plight" is just wrong - too bad the whole world does it.

I've always wanted to have a totally self-sustained underground home. That way, people could walk all over me without knowing it.

as easy as it sounds, its not that easy, there was already a guy named adolf who was trying to kill them and boy did he got many of them, yet some escaped and after adolf was gone some humanists decided to give those who escaped some land, of course it helped a lot that those survivors made quite a mess in 1 hotel and the british goverment got tired of getting they ppl killed, now kids of those survivors have a guts to complain about other guys who are doing to them what they were doing to brits 1/2 century ago

Originally posted by Seekerof

Its #ed its illegal to fund Palestine but legal to fund Israel, coz i would be sending funds to Arafat if i could

Dude...I can provide you a multiple of address and organization that would gladly take your "funding" in the nmae of Arafat.....just let me know....I'm sure his wife will look forward to the 'few bucks' you send!
Arafat is worth hundreds of millions and yet you want to send him more...knock yourself out dude.

As to equal funding....one is a state and the other isn't, is one reason.
ANother would be that funding to the Palestinians, even by the EU, is dropping because the funds were intended to help the Palestinian people...but research has shown that the funding was actually being diverted to Islamic Jihad and Hamas to fund more terrorist attacks.

You guys really need to start reading so books rather than comics.

seekerof

as for reading, if some of you have nothing better to do I suggest visiting UN homepage and see how badly is usa protecting israel, there is a LOT of resolutions which were vetoed by US to protect israel, as for the funds, how is it different that palestinians buy AK-47 for money from EU while israel buy apache for money from usa ?
1 wonder who's fault is it that palestinians dont have a state, how they dare to refuse such generous offer such as return them 20% of their territory back ?
I am still trying to find out why oh why is USA helping israel so much... any ideas ? please save me the democracy speech, thx

I swear by God, in whose hand is my life, that marching about morning and evening to fight for religion is better than the world and everything that is in it: and verily the standing of one of you in the line of battle is better than supererogatory prayers performed in your house for sixty years.

When the Prophet sent an army out to fight, he would say, March in the name of God and by his aid and on the religion of the Messenger of God."

From one of the links you provided Skeptic in your above post on the Sunnah.
You can find it under "Of Fighting for the Faith" at www.fordham.edu...

Muaddib---We have been told time and again that Islam is a peaceful religion, but in the same book we find many references to the contrary. Raise up and fight (not with words, but as in battles) for religion, it is better than praying at your home for 60 years....

I have also tried to find Muslim references on a bio on their prophet, pretty much all i see them saying is that he was merely a peaceful merchant, they do not mention any battles, they seem to actually avoid mentioning this. But in the same scriptures it says he had sent armies to battles....and also to fight in battles for their religion....

I have heard that there are references in the Quran to blind the infidels as to what its written in the Quran. This is the reference i have seen people refer to.


"[6.25] And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients."


Muaddib---Is there hatred towards those that are not believers in the Q'uran? Or to kill infidels, non-believers?


"[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.


[3.118] O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.


[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).


[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.


[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly."


Muaddib---Is there any references as to what happens to Muslims who do not go to war and die for Islam?


"[9.38] O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.

[9.39] If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.


[22.19] These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.

[22.20] With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.

[22.21] And for them are whips of iron.

[22.22] Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of burning. "


All above excerpts taken from.
www.kuran.gen.tr...


Muaddib-----This is a review of the book The Crisis of Islam: Holy War & Unholy Terror


"The beginning of the book provides an excellent summary of Islamic history, how it dominated the World during its Golden Age (600 to 1200); how it became the Ottoman Empire (1300 to 1920), but got ever weaker since the 1600s. And, how the Ottoman Empire got dissolved as the Middle East was restructured during the French and British mandates at the end of WWI.

Lewis mentions three types of Muslims. The first type hates everything about the West and always will. This includes terrorists and fundamentalists. The second type accepts the West because of its superior might. But, this hides an animosity that will resurface the minute Islam regains enough power. The third type likes the West, and looks forward to enjoy a higher quality of life. This pro Western third type has little influence on the other two.

Historical reference plays a key role in the Muslim mindset. Muslims remember the dates and places of every battles the Muslims won since Mohammed in the 600s CE. They remember these with pride as their duty to convert the world to their own belief system. They also remember equally well every defeat as insults imparted on their faith by infidels and crusaders."


Excerpts taken from.
20th-century-history-books.com...

Muaddib----This is the statement of Ibn Warraq.

"STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY

Ibn Warraq is the author of Why I Am Not A Muslim

Given the stupefying enormity of the acts of barbarism of 11 September, moral outrage is appropriate and justified, as are demands for punishment. But a civilized society cannot permit blind attacks on all those perceived as "Muslims" or Arabs. Not all Muslims or all Arabs are terrorists. Nor are they implicated in the horrendous events of Tuesday. Police protection for individual Muslims, mosques and other institutions must be increased.

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense. The West needs to understand them in order to be able to deal with them and avoid past mistakes. We are confronted with Islamic terrorists and must take seriously the Islamic component. Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, do not understand the passionate, religious, and anti-western convictions of Islamic terrorists. These God-intoxicated fanatics blindly throw away their lives in return for the Paradise of Seventy Two Virgins offered Muslim martyrs killed in the Holy War against all infidels.

Jihad is "a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur'an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims"[1].

The world is divided into two spheres, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. The latter, the Land of Warfare, is a country belonging to infidels which has not been subdued by Islam. The Dar al-Harb becomes the Dar- al Islam, the Land of Islam, upon the promulgation of the edicts of Islam. Thus the totalitarian nature of Islam is nowhere more apparent than in the concept of Jihad, the Holy War, whose ultimate aim is to conquer the entire world and submit it to the one true faith, to the law of Allah. To Islam alone has been granted the truth: there is no possibility of salvation outside it. Muslims must fight and kill in the name of Allah."


Excerpts taken from.
thinkers.net...

Muaddib---Who is this man Ibn Warraq?


"Ibn Warraq, a name meaning son of a scribe and with strong schismatic connotations from early Islamic history, is the pseudonym of a Muslim apostate writer and teacher currently living in Europe. Among the few personal details known about his life is that he was born in 1946 in Rajkot, India to Indian-Muslim parents who soon emigrated to Pakistan, and that he studied at the University of Edinburgh under the Orientalist scholar Montgomery Watt. "

Excerpts taken from.
en.wikipedia.org...

Muaddib----- Then again there are people that say, well, the bible itself has such references.

But those references in the bible (and I am not a believer of it) are from at least over 2,000 years old and then Jesus supposedly came giving other teachings, rectifying what had been done before. He never said to raise up your arms for your religion, or to kill those who do not believe in Christianism.

You also have to ask yourself, if Islam was/is such a peaceful religion, why was it that their only prophet, and most of those converted into Islam set forth to conquer the world and bring the belief of the Q'uran, Allah and its prophet Mohammed by the sword?

I am sure there are many good Muslims, who would not even think on doing these things. I could be wrong about Islam, and i would be the first one to admit it, if i am show me, so that we can leave this behind us and the doubts that are in many are satisfied.





[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by specialasianX
Before the state of Israel was formed the Jews were bombing hotels and british establishments trying to fight for their cause... and now the palestinians are doing it to them and its wrong?

I say give the Palestinians as much funding as Israel gets and then we'll see how things go...

Its #ed its illegal to fund Palestine but legal to fund Israel, coz i would be sending funds to Arafat if i could

When there are no suicide bombings Israel doesn't bring gun ships into the Palestinian land and just start mindlessly killing people. It is a response to being attacked. When political negations don't go the way they want them to they send people to blow themselves up and kill innocent civilians. Than the cry about the response Israel gives them, like they didn't know or something. Israel could easily wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet, but they don't. Do you think if the Palestinians had the same amount of fire power that they wouldn't kill all the jews? They would show the same amount of restraint?

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by J0HNSmith]

Originally posted by specialasianX
Before the state of Israel was formed the Jews were bombing hotels and british establishments trying to fight for their cause... and now the palestinians are doing it to them and its wrong?

After WWI, the League of Nations set up mandates for the territories of the former Ottoman Empire with the goal of helping the local populations set up governments and achieve self-rule. In one of these mandates, the British Mandate for Palestine, the League of Nations also incorporated a mandate to establish a homeland for the Jewish people.

Jewish resistance to the British arose when it was perceived that the British was not administrating their mandate fairly. The British, charged with facilitating the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, placed severe restrictions on Jewish immigration to the area. This was during the 1920�s, 30�s and early 40�s when anti-Semitism in Europe was increasing and eventually culminated in the Holocaust. In hindsight, one can only guess at how many hundreds of thousands or even millions of people died because they had no place to flee to.

Jewish militias grew out of a need to protect Jewish communities from Arab violence, because the British were not.

Originally posted by magecarin
as easy as it sounds, its not that easy, there was already a guy named adolf who was trying to kill them and boy did he got many of them, yet some escaped and after adolf was gone some humanists decided to give those who escaped some land, of course it helped a lot that those survivors made quite a mess in 1 hotel and the british goverment got tired of getting they ppl killed, now kids of those survivors have a guts to complain about other guys who are doing to them what they were doing to brits 1/2 century ago

It�s important to understand that the Holocaust was not the only instance of anti-Semitism in Europe. Rather, the Holocaust was the culmination of centuries of persecution that at its mildest, denied Jews civil rights afforded to non-Jews, and often erupted into violence called pogroms.

Read about the bombing of the King David Hotel here:

www.us-israel.org...

Originally posted by magecarin
as for reading, if some of you have nothing better to do I suggest visiting UN homepage and see how badly is usa protecting israel, there is a LOT of resolutions which were vetoed by US to protect israel, as for the funds, how is it different that palestinians buy AK-47 for money from EU while israel buy apache for money from usa ?

Yes, the United States often vetoes anti-Israel resolutions, but in the UN Arab nations, and there are more than 20 of them, consistently vote as a block against Israel.

Originally posted by magecarin
1 wonder who's fault is it that palestinians dont have a state, how they dare to refuse such generous offer such as return them 20% of their territory back?

That�s 20% of what?

One of the first things the British did in administering the British Mandate was to divide the territory along the Jordan River. The Eastern side of the mandate was reserved as an Arab-only area and is today the nation of Jordan. This represents approximately 80% of the area of the original area of Palestine.

When you say their territory what do you mean?

When you talk about land ownership, there are two ways of looking at it; personal and political. Personal ownership is pretty straightforward. I own the land my house sits upon, the title of the land clearly reflects that. I have legal rights to that land within certain restrictions, I can build on it or sell it as I please.

But what we are talking about here is political ownership. The United States �owns� Guam, for example. While I personally don�t own any property there, as a citizen of the US I can say that we, collectively, �own� the territory regardless of the nationality of any individuals who actually hold title to land there.

But in the disputed territories, this kind of �ownership� doesn�t apply. The political ownership has gone from the Ottoman Empire, to the British, to Jordan (or Egypt in the case of Gaza) and now Israel. Palestinian-Arab �ownership� is very likely sometime in the future, but it has yet to be negotiated.

Originally posted by magecarin
I am still trying to find out why oh why is USA helping israel so much... any ideas ? please save me the democracy speech, thx

Why do Arab nations and the European Union channel so much aid to the Palestinian-Arabs?

Originally posted by Mycroft
I can think of one. Islam. They want another homeland in Israel, in addition to the other 20 or so predominantly Islamic nations.

what does it matter how many islamic countries there are? it doesnt make the palestinians any less entitled to their land and their homes.

if i took your house on the grounds that there are hundreds of thousands of houses for americans in america and a minute number for britons, would you accept that as justice?

Originally posted by bolshevik
what does it matter how many islamic countries there are? it doesnt make the palestinians any less entitled to their land and their homes.

if i took your house on the grounds that there are hundreds of thousands of houses for americans in america and a minute number for britons, would you accept that as justice?

Certainly not, but neither is that an accurate analogy.

If you purchased my house from me, or purchased land from me and built your own house, I would not claim you were stealing my land.

If you and thousands of fellow Brittons purchased land twenty miles away from me and built a community, I would not claim you were stealing my land, and I would not take up arms to prevent your immigration.

Why is that the US Government funds Israel the way they do?






[Edited on 8-4-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by Mycroft
If you and thousands of fellow Brittons purchased land twenty miles away from me and built a community, I would not claim you were stealing my land, and I would not take up arms to prevent your immigration.

the creation of israel was not as serene as you make out and involved repeated illegal incursions into palestinian land resulting in the loss of homes in the way my analogy refered.

the simple truth is that the immigration is currently the most potent and divisive social issue in the west, and the reaction of many westerners towards immigrants in their own countries is similar to that of the palestinians after the beginnings of the zionist movement.

the self-righteousness in pro-israel voices is woefully misplaced.

Seekerof, here's a thought.

Why don't you take a break from copy/pasting a whole bunch of links and start doing some thinking of your own.

Of course I know what Jihad is, obviously you don't because if you did you'd know Jihad is more a mental thing than a physical thing.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by TrueLies]

So I suppose that Hirabah is also a "mental" thing?
I'm sincerely interested in your interpretations of what Jihad is, according to Islam, Muslims, The Shari'ah/Fiqh, etc.

Most of those links within the one link I provided are by Islamic jurors/scholars of Islamic law. Interesting that you say that Jihad is more of a mental thing/aspect when in all I have read, given from an Islamic perspective, there is little to no mention of Jihad being a "mental" thing.


seekerof

Originally posted by bolshevik
the creation of israel was not as serene as you make out and involved repeated illegal incursions into palestinian land resulting in the loss of homes in the way my analogy refered.

I created a simplistic analogy in response to your simplistic analogy. From 1881 to the Israeli declaration of Independence in1947, Jewish immigration to Palestine consisted of Jews purchasing land and building communities, not forcing natives from their homes. This behavior is often characterized by anti-Israeli voices as �land stealing.� My analogy is more accurate than yours.

Originally posted by bolshevik
the simple truth is that the immigration is currently the most potent and divisive social issue in the west, and the reaction of many westerners towards immigrants in their own countries is similar to that of the palestinians after the beginnings of the zionist movement.

the self-righteousness in pro-israel voices is woefully misplaced.

How many places around the world does immigration result in riots? Where they do, do you support the anti-immigration rioters?

Originally posted by Mycroft
I created a simplistic analogy in response to your simplistic analogy. From 1881 to the Israeli declaration of Independence in1947, Jewish immigration to Palestine consisted of Jews purchasing land and building communities, not forcing natives from their homes. This behavior is often characterized by anti-Israeli voices as �land stealing.� My analogy is more accurate than yours.

yes youre correct, but the larger scale immigration and incursions into palestinian land occurred post 1945. turning the clock back to a time when the issue was too small scale to be truly divisive is totally misleading.

How many places around the world does immigration result in riots?

off hand, the only cases of immigration causing riots have been in bradford and burnley (uk). i could find more but that isnt really the issue. if immigration into any western country occurred on the same level as jews into palestine i believe there would be some form of uprising. this is already evident in the rise of rightwing activity across europe and the sensationalist reporting of the media about asylum seekers. it can also be seen on this forum with americans talking about 'out of control immigration' through 'open borders' with mexico and canada.

Where they do, do you support the anti-immigration rioters?

i am always pro-immigration as long as it doesnt involve in the displacement of the native population