New Typhoon operator may help secure tranche 3

A possible solution has emerged to the UK's quandary over buying tranche 3 Typhoons.

The RAF wants the 'full strength' version but needs to operate less aircraft than it was originally getting. The answer to this has now emerged as Oman has stated that it wants to buy 24 Typhoons to replace its ageing Jaguars. The reason this is good news for the RAF is that Oman is wanting to take the RAF's older F2 models which cannot be upgraded to the current FGR4 standard, and which will naturally be cheaper to buy than a new build model. If the sale goes through the RAF will get permission to buy tranche 3 replacements, all tranche 1 block 8 and tranche 2 Typhoons can, and will, be updated to this same standard so it also solves a looming incompatibility issue for the RAF's older Typhoons. This was first mooted at the Farnborough show but a recent, er, discussion, suggests that it is now looking 'more than likely'. Fingers crossed then.

Oddly there is still no source I have found on the web for this, hopefully I will.

soon

[edit on 28-12-2008 by waynos]

I’ve changed my position on these kinds of sales; we could do with offloading a few Typhoons given the current financial situation. But I’m still puzzled as to how the other partners feel towards this; surely this deal would deny them revenue since Oman could be said to be reasonably likely to buy new build Typhoons if the UK wasn’t offering second hand. Will this be an obstacle? Will the UK have to pay penalties?

Why cant the F2's be upgraded?

If this deal does go through whats the timeline going to be?

I can already hear AIPAC making noise to have the US give them the F-22 :shk: because of the proliferation of advanced gen 4.5 fighters being sold in the area.

reply to post by Mike_A


I dont see how they could enact penalties against the UK over this sale as one you bought them you own them and can do with them as you please. The UK's ability to buy more of the Tranch 3 aircraft would (I think) help towards lowering the unit cost of them anyway so all the countries would benifit.

True but the existing work share is based on numbers bought, if we pass some off to Oman then effectively the number we have bought goes down because Oman could otherwise be said to be a likely new build customer. The other partners are losing out because we are reducing our own costs, blocking a potential export customer while keeping the same work share. No idea if there are any provisions for this in the agreements but if I were Germany I’d be a bit miffed .

Originally posted by FredT
Why cant the F2's be upgraded?

The early Tranche 1 airframes are lighter and cannot be easily adapted to the heavier equipment the Tranche 3 modifications require.

There is an answer to your question Mike as I posed it myself, so here goes.

The numbers bought by the UK are preserved by this deal, this is not affected by the fact that some of our aircraft have been 're-sold'. Germany has already done this once with the Austrian sale, but these were German aircraft straight off the production line before delivery (like the initial Saudi ones), but the principle is the same.

It increases Typhoon revenue for the partners rather than decreasing it because it improves the chances of a tranche 3 buy, which is what everyone wants. Oman would not order new build Typhoons without this arrangement as, due to cost and commonality issues, if they were to buy a new build type they would buy more F-16's instead as they already operate that aircraft.

So this deal improves the Typhoons prospects for future sales to all partners with full UK participation and continues Omani business with BAE that goes back to the Hawker Hunter via the Lightning and Jaguar.

Originally posted by waynos
The numbers bought by the UK are preserved by this deal, this is not affected by the fact that some of our aircraft have been 're-sold'. Germany has already done this once with the Austrian sale, but these were German aircraft straight off the production line before delivery (like the initial Saudi ones), but the principle is the same.

But these aircraft were/will be replaced by extra production aircraft; it’s just a reallocation of production slots. So in the case of Saudi Arabia we sent them airframes originally destined for the RAF but the total production order went up to compensate for this. The UK still buys and owns 232 airframes.

With the Oman idea, if I’ve understood it correctly (having reread it I’m not sure I have!), the UK would give them early production aircraft but not replace them with newer airframes instead simply ordering Tranche 3 which was supposed to be ordered anyway. Thus bringing the total UK purchase down to 208 while at the same time preserving the UK workshare.

Originally posted by waynos
It increases Typhoon revenue for the partners rather than decreasing it because it improves the chances of a tranche 3 buy

Not really because the UK is contractually obligated to buy tranche 3 anyway; or otherwise face penalty costs. That’s why I think this deal might not go down well with the other partners, it is in effect a way of getting around those penalty clauses.

It’s great for the UK and I hope it goes smoothly but not sure the other partners will be best pleased.

reply to post by Mike_A


the tthing is though , all of the partner countries whilst are `obligated` to buy tranche 3 , they are all making noises about not buying as many on cost grounds

The UK will still have bought and paid for 232 aircraft so our obligation will be met, its just that the 24 oldest ones will have been sold on.

Given that the only alternative for Oman is a further buy of F-16's, Eurofighter really has nothing to complain about as these 24 Omani Typhoons, if it does go ahead, will need support for 20+ years.

Originally posted by Mike_A
...... but if I were Germany I’d be a bit miffed

.

To which I would reply "Sorry, Herman, but our towels were down on the Omani beaches before yours. pfffffffffffft."

Dear All

This is a government to government sale and not via BAE so numbers or buys or work share does not apply. Also member countries were offered parts of the world to "carve up" any additional sales as national benefits for the national manufacturers and so in our case BAE. The additional benefit is in the work-share as each country benefits from building more airframes no matter who gets the sale or where they go.

Middle east was BAE territory. The reason it's a government to government sale is precisely to give the benefit to the government and NOT BAE. We sell ex RAF to OMAN or Jordan or whoever and the RAF (sic) gets the wedge. therein lies the rub will the government give the RAF the T3 they want or not.

There are many typhoon discussion fora where this is all explained at greater length and detail than i can possibly manage. However as this is ATS I can't tell you which one. (starstreak.net)

A question - why did the Government cut up the Jaguars instead of selling them on? They would have been amazing use today , instead of the tonka`s which are wearing out rather quickly.


which reminds me - have a heard a rumour that some of the `retired` tonka`s are being prepared since the service ones are close to life.

reply to post by Deharg


No, the reason its a Govt sale is not to cut out BAE, they would be very much involved in the deal through preparing the aircraft for delivery and future support contracts. Its a Govt sale because they are not new build aircraft, they are ones in service already that are the property of the said Govt.

Whether it does lead to T3 depends on the Govt doing what it said it will rather than what it feels like on the day, but I feel that this sale realistically increases the chances gven the reduced numbers the RAF is operating with coupled with the penalty clauses threatened for not divvying up as agreed.

Harlequin, the stored Tornadoes were never upgraded to GR 4 standard and so are incompatible with the rest of the fleet, a shortsighted move which actively prevents us from rotating airframes, we made the same mistake (or should that be pinched the same pennies) with the Jaguar GR 3 upgrade as well.

Harlequin,

Germany and Spain are pretty set aren’t they? I thought it was just the UK and Italy looking at downsizing.

Deharg,

Being a Gov to Gov sale doesn’t circumvent our contractual responsibilities; in fact the agreements putting the penalties in place would have been government to government since they related to the number of airframes to be bought by each country.

Waynos,

I see what you’re saying but I have to say I still think the other partners may have grounds to complain and/or block this sail/impose penalties. I mean while Oman might not be interested in new build Typhoons the UK could still sell them early airframes and then place an additional order to compensate; so it still could be said that EF GmbH would be losing out. It also sets a precedent for further such reductions. Guess we’ll see what happens…

it looks like the countries involved want to pay for them in chunks rather than all up front

www.defensenews.com...

but still getting all the aircraft they want

www.flightglobal.com...

interesting comment on flight

Rauen also confirms that cash-strapped nations could even sell on some of their existing or future Typhoons to potential export users in a bid to overcome their current budgetary difficulties. "If one nation decides to sell Eurofighters out of their fleet, they are allowed to do that in principle," he says

Obviously this is just my own opinion but I would say that Eurofighter are not particularly concerned with what the RAF does with aircraft that have already been delivered and (probably) paid for and are much more concerned with the next lot of orders that are needed to keep production going.

I do see what you're getting at Mike but I have to disagree. I don't see how Eurofighter could say "yes, you've bought all the 232 aircraft you said you would but we think you are morally obliged to buy some more seeing as you have sold some of them on as second hand to a country that had no interest in buying new ones at all, even though, in doing this, you have increased the operator base for the type"

It is good news all round really, no orders have been lost and, bonus, there will be a few, a very few, less of those bloody 'common as muck' F-16's kicking around

I guess you could upgrade a Tornado GR1 by taking the avionics and other upgraded bits from a GR4 although a big job and Gov wouldn't want to pay for it.
Does anyone know how many Tornado GR1s are in storage?
In 2000 the RAF had 174 GR1/GR4 and eventually 142 of those where upgraded to GR4.
www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk...

So that leaves 32 GR1 not upgraded

Answering my own question on the remaining Tornado GR1s not upgraded to GR4

3 stored
7 used for ground instruction (training)
a few to museums and gate guards
the rest sold as scrap

about 40 written off in accidents and action while in the GR1 standard
www.ukserials.com...

Dear All

I am sorry I did not mean to imply that a government to government sale would impact our desire to purchase Tranche three nor did I even say that would get us out of having to pay for if not buy the T3 airframes. What I mean by government to government is that this means the other partners are not affected in terms of workshare as they have already had the benefit of building them for the RAF and Germany and Spain et al can go swing role for all the UK gov cares. The point is that BAE or the UK were the only entities going to sell Typhoon into the big mid east buyers (excluding Libya and Egypt of course). I hope the RAF gets all the T2 Block 8 standard planes it can and if this garage sale helps then good. BAE will of course be involved as the manufacturer and the supplier of follow on services, the Fly away price will be low but that won't be the big bit of the contract anyway. As for the Jaguars we could always get more from India as they still manufacture them.

Happy New year to Waynos and Harlequin and Deckhard and everyone I enjoy reading here on ATS... Einen guten Rutsch to you all.