What is Israel trying to hide?

Firstly, I think Israel responded in a way that is appropriate for the violence being used against them. Force must be met with force after a ceasefire has been in place and been broken over a no of days by one party of the 3 parties involved (Hamas, Israel and Fatah)
Secondly, please note that Israel is not attacking Palestine - the West Bank being ruled by Fatah is not under attack - why because it has kept its truce.

The problem with Palestine is that it itself is in the midst of a civil war (Hamas Vs Fatah) with one side trying to score points off the other - how? - by making one side (Fatah) seem like collaborators.

To do achieve this I (Hamas) would launch attacks against the common enemy (Israel) . Then I (Hamas) would let them (Israel) retaliate and hurt our common people. Once that has been achieved I can launch counter attacks and then I am seen as the David against the Goliath and standing up for the rights of my people.

Result of said action, countless sympathy from around the world for my cause against Israel. Also in the eyes of my people I am now the strong one standing up for my people while my enemy (Fatah) is the collaborator.

Anyone who doesn't see this doesn't understand the nature of so called Palestine, which by the way never existed and the so called Palestinians were not treated very kindly under Arab rule either - Check out what happened in Jordan back in the day.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and not one that can be reasoned with. Prior to the launch of the military strikes Israel had been using Egypt to speak to Hamas in its rule as mediator of the ceasefire. Egypt told Israel it could not get Hamas to budge and itself become very frustrated in dealing with them and reportedly gave Israel its ok for the launching of air strikes.

So Israel despite resisting your actions on previous occasions (i.e. Southern Lebanon) you have my full support.

reply to post by Melbourne_Militia


There are 2 or more problems with the post.

1) The post say’s no manner at all, how the Hamas terrorists will be stopped, so they will not.
2) The post ways to stop one of two warring parties-how completely biased.
3) Considering what Russia did to "its Muslim terrorist’s issue, grozna (sp?) they have "NO" moral high ground to say anything.

This is the usual solution provided.

Ignore what the terrorists who stared this did, and concentrate strictly on the "RESPONCE" to the terrorists attacks specifically targeting civilians.

Who is to say that it is Hamas blowing up Jews. It could very well be the Mossad staging these events. It would seem to me that the Palestinians would refrain from attacking Israel since they have planes, tanks and 300 nukes etc. Israel keeps all info suppressed and NO ONE knows what is going on in there. Israelies are the worst people on the planet killing at will. I was against the Palestinians just a few years ago until I started thinking more clearly.

If there were rockets coming from the Palestinians then Israel would roll right in there and end it. Since they are shooting at themselves and the world knows it.

On a scary thought. This could be some work that they want to get sone before all hell breaks lose in 2009.

reply to post by Mdv2


Maybe aid from the Arab states and the international health professionals could be sent in through Egypt's Rafah border crossing.

I would only like to add one thing...........

Israel is the only side denying access to the area by U.N. peacekeepers. So they are the guilty party. No one I believe can deny or explain that away.

If they really wanted the rocket attacks to stop. Peacekeepers on the ground in Gaza would be the obvious solution.

This shines a different light on the story.

www.wnd.com...

Originally posted by mrmonsoon

Where as this falls back on the tired old.......... The cause (this time) was over a week of rocket and mortar attacks.

That was not fabricated at all.

In fact, even Al-Jihad news reported that Hamas were firing rockets and mortars into Israel.

In fact I can provide as many news agencies as you want all saying it is truth and not fabricated.

No one, especially me, has said that the rocket attacks by Hamas was fabricated..ever. Please dont accuse people of saying things they never said.

I even provided proof of Hama's rocket attacks. Or did you not see those?

Now as to these rocket attacks. How many Israeli civilians died in those attacks compared to the body count of Palestinian civilians in this counter attack? Remember, Hamas has non-hi tech weapons that are not precision but the Israeli force does have hi tech weapons, yet innocents are being hit by these precise weapons.

Throw out the verfiable numbers ok. Lets see if this right to defend justifies all out genocide.




Cheers!!!!

PA ready to take Gaza if Hamas Ousted



www.jpost.com...

I have noticed lately that ATS is strongly anti-Jewish / anti-Israel, whatever you want to call it. Truth is that if you if you believe that Israel is "oppressing" the Palestinians, you only know half the story, and that is the Palestinian's version of things. They are masters of propaganda, which is perhaps their biggest weapon.

Reality is that Israel does what it does because Palestinian militants lie, deceive and stab you in the back at the first opportunity, and are not partners in any sort of peaceful dialog. Unfortunately, Palestinian civilians suffer because of this.

However, you can not ask Israel to stop defending itself while these same civilians who are being hurt are refusing to lift a finger to root out the militant aspects of their society. As of a matter fact, these same civilians are the ones lining the streets and cheering like a crazed mob any time an Israeli soldier is killed or captured. How can Israel honestly work towards peace when the people they are hoping to establish peace with so ravenously cheer on their militants and crave Israeli bloodshed?

It's very easy to say "these civilians are so oppressed, no wonder they lash out at Israel," but if you go back throughout history, and actually do RESEARCH, you will see that each and every time that a peace accord was struck, Israel would make many concessions and begin returning land, food, etc to the Palestinian people only to have the accord be broken by senseless bombings, rockets, and suicide attacks.

How many times can a country extend its hand only to receive a warm smile and a dagger in the back as soon as it lets its guard down? What is a country to do when its civilian population is being bombed after many unsuccessful attempts at peace?

I did want to point out one thing here. As I view this and other threads on the topic some people have commented on the number of Palestinian casulties versus Israeli casulties. Invariably, when the conflict is viewed this way, the Israeli effort clearly seems excessive and disproportionate.

The problem is that I think these people are confusing retaliation with defense. If this were retaliation by the Israelis, then yes, it would have to be considered wildly disproportionate. But it's not -- it's a defensive move and the whole concept of "proportion" becomes irrelevant. You do what you need to do to stop the threat. If someone is lobbing missles into your country, you don't say, "okay, we're gonna stop our offensive as soon as we have XX-number of deaths on the other side. But, hey, then we stop and they can continue lobbing missles at our people until we have more death on our side." No, You keep attacking until either the threat stops completely or is minimized to the point where is doesn't affect people's lives any longer. The number of people who die in the process of executing this objective is only a concern for political reasons.

That's not to say that I support Israel. But I had always supported the Palestinians pretty much exclusively until they voted in Hamas in the West Bank. That demonstrated to me, very clearly, that some Palestinians have no interest in living in peace with Israel. It made me rather disinclined to really care about whether they worked out their issues with Israel.

reply to post by pause4thought


Dude, I don't know where you live, but I'm pretty certain you don't get 30-40 rockets A DAY pounded your back doorstep (which equates to playgrounds, schools, civilian buildings) from areas within the 'Gaza Strip' (yes, that volatile area handed over in the name of peace so that as soon as those nasty Jews left, eveything would be ok) and still be told that the bombs are all your fault. And tell me, of all the innocent civilians and schoolchildren that are MURDERED by these rockets (don't tell me it's pure 'Hamas accident' that they strike,) how many are registered on global news (CNN, FOX, BBC, ITN, etc)?
Let me tell you...NONE. EVER.
On a daily basis, you never EVER hear about it. Because we (the Jews) are the only ones who ever cause problems.
Let me ask you something. The Palestinians want their own homeland? They were offered it in 1948. They didn't want it. They chose war in the hope of annihilating the Jews. They failed. Now they mmake demands for Israel to return to the 1948 borders. No-one but the Jews recognised those terms in the FIRST place! Don't believe me? OK, who was the representatives of the Palestinians prior to 1967, or 1948. No cry for a Palestinian homeland stolen by the Jews before then. Why? YOU DO THE MATH.

reply to post by ClintK


Using "blanket" attacks is hardly justifiable and then go on worldwide tv that there were no civilian casualties. LINK

It is obvious that Israel is using this blanket assault policy and calling it a right to defend themselves.

It would be different if the Hamas had airplanes, missiles and tanks and had launched this kind of attack against Israel. But that is not what happend. Hamas did launch primative rockets into Israel and did not even come close to causing casualites as this right to defend ourselves genocide has done. Now they are prepared to move in with tanks and ground assault teams.

I dont recall any ground assault teams or tanks going into Israel by the Hamas.

It is outright genocide. If some want to call it retaliation to feel more comfy to the reality of whats happening, thats fine. But there are alot of us who clearly see what is happening, and it isnt simple right to defend themselves.





Cheers!!!!

reply to post by Burginthorn


OMG,are u serious,why dont you read about the indians in america,do you think they gave up their land lying down to the white man,NO,THEY ATTACKED the army and settlers(in other words civilians),ever heared of scalping, because they couldn't fight against the numbers and arsenal of the white man,but this happened in the USA in the first 100 years mostly,untill their numbers dwindled thanks to disease,famine,and them being hunted down,read www.iearn.org... ,anyway a lot of people say the issue is complicated,i always say look at the root of it,even if you watch Fox or CNN they talk about the OCCUPIED WEST BANK AND GAZA,the palestinians are under occupation,what do you expect people to do,give u flowers,the only way to end this is to establish a palestinian state on the borders of 1967,a viable indipendent palestinian state,by the way for those who support Israeli attacks on Gaza because of Hammas be ashamed,it's called collective punishment,it's the most populated place on earth,innocent peaple are going to die,as for the Israeli argument about what are we supposed to do,we have to defend our selfs,i say go back to the 67 border and enable the establishment of a palestinian state like i wrote above,my heart goes to the palestinians and hope those israeli's who know this is wrong, have the courage to stand up and do that what's right

Since both sides are b!tching and throwing rockets at each other, here is a proposition.
Israel since they are maintaining the blockade and keeping all these relief supplies out, I would propose that Israel themselves ship in, supply, purchase, etc. the aid themselves. I would hope this would allow them to begin healing the rift between the Palestinians in the Gaza strip and the Israeli government. In order to prevent Hamas from acquiring these relief supplies to use themselves, invade the strip again. Make it a permanent occupation and assimilate the Gazan population into the Israeli nation like they should have the first time.

They invaded once and held, until the international community came around and complained about it. Now it is a worse mess than before, both the reputation of Israel and the Gazan population suffer.
All the while Hamas becomes stronger by gaining sympathy from the international community and is still able to attack Israel.

My conclusion from this is not to place the blame on Israel, but on the International Community itself.

Originally posted by count66
Firstly, I think Israel responded in a way that is appropriate for the violence being used against them. Force must be met with force after a ceasefire has been in place and been broken over a no of days by one party of the 3 parties involved (Hamas, Israel and Fatah)

So if someone spits a spitball at you, you think an appropriate response would be to use a shotgun in return and call that meet force with force?

Originally posted by count66
Secondly, please note that Israel is not attacking Palestine - the West Bank being ruled by Fatah is not under attack - why because it has kept its truce.

This is true, but the Gaza strip is filled with 1.3 million Palestine civilians who are not Hamas. And if there were no blockades surrounding the Gaza strip, perhaps those Palestine civilians would have been able to evacuate so that nothing but the Hamas would be left. Israel could have allowed those innocent civilians to evacuate but that did not happen.

And it is also true that some of Hamas would have sneeked away too. So instead of letting innocents evacuate and taking the chance that a few Hamas may run with them, they use a blanket genocide policy that is labled as "right to defend ourselves" and end up killing civilians.







Cheers!!!!

And by the way, if Hamas is able to smuggle in weapons, rockets, explosives and so forth to throw at Israel, then why the hell aren't they smuggling in aid instead?
That ladies and gentlemen exposes Hamas for the underhanded snakes that they are.

Originally posted by RFBurns

Using "blanket" attacks is hardly justifiable and then go on worldwide tv that there were no civilian casualties.

It is obvious that Israel is using this blanket assault policy and calling it a right to defend themselves.

But they don't appear to be "blanket" attacks. They are clearly picking targets where they hope to get high numbers of Hamas casulties, and most reports indicate that the majority of casulties are, indeed, Hamas security personnel

Originally posted by RFBurns
It would be different if the Hamas had airplanes, missiles and tanks and had launched this kind of attack against Israel. But that is not what happend. Hamas did launch primative rockets into Israel and did not even come close to causing casualites as this right to defend ourselves genocide has done. Now they are prepared to move in with tanks and ground assault teams.

No, they did cause injuries and one death. But that's not the point. Like I said, it was a defensive action -- they were trying to stop the missle strikes.

Originally posted by RFBurns

It is outright genocide. If some want to call it retaliation to feel more comfy to the reality of whats happening, thats fine. But there are alot of us who clearly see what is happening, and it isnt simple right to defend themselves.

Allright, but just for the record, you really believe Israel is doing this totally because they just want to kill Palestinians? Seriously? That the missle strikes had nothing to do with it? That the Israelis actually secretly wanted the missle strikes so they'd have an excuse to kill Palestinians? That Hamas actually have a right to fire missles into Israel?

Hamas doesnt have any more right to fire at anyone, nor do they have any right to cause chaos either. Does that mean Israel must resort to blanket tacktics in the "hopes" they get as many Hamas as they can in such a confined area where 1.3 million innocent civilians are FORCED to live like sardines in a can and Israel "hopes" they hit only Hamas?

Cmon man I know your more aware of the finer details to whats going on.




Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by Amberite
I have noticed lately that ATS is strongly anti-Jewish / anti-Israel, whatever you want to call it. Truth is that if you if you believe that Israel is "oppressing" the Palestinians, you only know half the story, and that is the Palestinian's version of things. They are masters of propaganda, which is perhaps their biggest weapon.

Propaganda is the Palestinians biggest weapon huh? Question how many Palestinian or Muslim news agencies do you know of here in the US? Name one please. Then name me the Jewish owned and ran news agencies here in the US. The fact is its kind of hard to get their propaganda out if they own no news agency isnt it? Its easy for the Israelis to get their propaganda out because all the news agencies are owned by Jews.

Sigh....sheeple....

reply to post by RFBurns


I appreciate your comments.

To respond to same I would say that if I know someone is stronger than me then I wouldn't be stupid enough to throw a spitball at them in the first place and secondly the 1.3 million palestinians in the Gaza strip have to be responsible for the Hamas Group they supported in the civil war.

Does that mean I condone the killing of civilians? - no - but how can you attack people who locate their military bases in civilian centres without killing civilians? - can't be done - militarily evacuation is not an option if you are targeting an enemy who can choose to blend into the civilian population.

I served in Lebanon in the 90's with the Irish UN force for a tour and trust me I am no friend of Israel when they do wrong - they killed a no. of my fellow comrades throughout the Irish presence there and I had my own position shelled on a couple of occasions. They resented the UN presence there which prevented their unhindered military action.

But on this occasion I genuinely believe they had no choice. Hamas are not a group open to peace and therefore their own civilian population need to throw them out to allow a lasting peace to be built - until then Israel has a right to respond to attacks. If Hamas had access to greater weaponry - they would have used that too regardless of casulty.