Help bible prophecies please help

only thing about revelations that specifically separates the groups in when babylon falls.

babylon the great (as the group of false religion), which falls first because the other groups morn her.

the ¨kings¨ (who are the political entities, also depicted as the beasts)

the ¨merchants¨(companies, banks, anyone who ¨profits¨)

im not sure is military is separate from political. i think they are different parts of the same body.

reply to post by badmedia

You posted a long winded way of trying to say I'm full of myself, a way of attacking my character, and then you say I offer no understanding, when I have offered plenty of understanding, and have much more to offer.

Badmedia, I apologize if I was boring.

I'll be succinct:
Deut 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

My question:
Does the above verse allow for usury under certain circumstances?

Yes or no?

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
Badmedia, I apologize if I was boring.

I'll be succinct:
Deut 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

My question:
Does the above verse allow for usury under certain circumstances?

Yes or no?

The meaning behind that verse is that unto foreigners you can do that, but not to those in your own society.

But it is still theft. And those who do it also do it to their own society. And it is OT, so I put more weight into that everyone is my brother, so it is therefore not acceptable under any circumstance - except maybe to a corporation, which use to be treated as a foreigner and has no soul.

This is also not the same as the money changers, usury is just part of money changing. It is always a crime because it is constantly stealing from the people themselves in their purchasing power.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


Emphasis mine:

The meaning behind that verse is that unto foreigners you can do that,

THANK YOU, badmedia, for being honest with the text!

but not to those in your own society.

Here is where I disagree, for your language isn't precise enough. I AGREE that Usury was not permitted amongst (between) the 12 tribes, but to make this law binding upon other societies is never commanded in Scripture.

The law was not given to the Gentiles, but to the Hebrew children. And the only punishment for NOT observing this law (in the OT) was death. There was no promise of "Eternal life" NOR "eternal death" for either following or not following the Law. The Hebrew children were only promised a certain amount of LAND...that is all they were promised.

(I could go on, but I don't want to be boring.)

But it is still theft. And those who do it also do it to their own society. And it is OT, so I put more weight into that everyone is my brother, so it is therefore not acceptable under any circumstance - except maybe to a corporation, which use to be treated as a foreigner and has no soul.

Again, there is no commandment given to the Gentiles that THEY must observe ALL of the Laws of Moses! (And even if they DID...the Gentiles were never promised any land!

Example:
My next-door neighbor is a "billionaire". I hear him talking to his son (same age as me) and this "billionaire dad" explains EVERYTHING his son needs to do to inherit the dad's fortune. No matter how much "better" I can do these things...I'm never going to lay hands on that inheritance because it wasn't PROMISED to me!

You said that "everyone is your brother". Once again, Scripture explains that this approach is simply not true. Jesus didn't call EVERYONE His brother:

Matt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

This is also not the same as the money changers, usury is just part of money changing.

Yes, badmedia, that is what I was trying to say earlier. "Usury" is not the sin of the money-changers, it was something else.

It is always a crime because it is constantly stealing from the people themselves in their purchasing power.

I thoroughly disagree with this last sentence. What God has PERMITTED is not a crime. We already agreed that God permitted usury in Deut 23:20 and to call it "always a crime" goes against this verse.

-----------------

Badmedia, I apologize if this last question doesn't make sense, but are you familiar with American Express?

You ignore multitudes of other text and use the single one which fits your description. Moses is the only one who said it, and that is not the law of this age. If you do these things then you are breaking a commandment and the understanding of how Jesus explained it. If the law in the OT was correct in how it was being done, then Jesus wouldn't have need to come. You can follow Moses all you want, but I don't.

You are not loving thy neighbor as thyself when you place usury on them.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
You said that "everyone is your brother". Once again, Scripture explains that this approach is simply not true. Jesus didn't call EVERYONE His brother:

Matt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Oh, so now you have knowledge of who does this and who doesn't? No, as you do not then it is best to assume and treat anyone as if they are. Again, when Jesus says love thy neighbor as thyself does he say - except for those who don't do the will of my father? No. You are only using this example as a way of spinning the truth.

This is also not the same as the money changers, usury is just part of money changing.

Yes, badmedia, that is what I was trying to say earlier. "Usury" is not the sin of the money-changers, it was something else.

Not the only sin. It is still part of what the money changers do in modern times. It is only insult to injury however.

It is always a crime because it is constantly stealing from the people themselves in their purchasing power.

I thoroughly disagree with this last sentence. What God has PERMITTED is not a crime. We already agreed that God permitted usury in Deut 23:20 and to call it "always a crime" goes against this verse.

Now here you are just a blind fool. All sins have been permitted, and for you to even suggest this just lets me know you are full of it. No wonder you are a pre-trib guy, you don't believe you have to reap what you sow.

I'll bet your a follower of Paul correct?

-----------------
Badmedia, I apologize if this last question doesn't make sense, but are you familiar with American Express?

I know it's a credit card. But I am debt free and do not take on credit for any reason. Most of my bills I pay months in advance.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by badmedia

 

Emphasis mine:

The meaning behind that verse is that unto foreigners you can do that,

THANK YOU, badmedia, for being honest with the text!

but not to those in your own society.

Here is where I disagree, for your language isn't precise enough. I AGREE that Usury was not permitted amongst (between) the 12 tribes, but to make this law binding upon other societies is never commanded in Scripture.

The big question is, how do you know you are not one of the Israelite tribes? Remember there were 10 that were scattered abroad, that went north west, and what is north west of Israel? Western Europe and the English Isles. Think of who are descended from those people today, and the blessings they have had of material wealth, natural resources, military strength, and.....LAND! Israel today in prophecy is not simple about a tiny corner of land in the middle east, it is about the US, Great Britain, Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Keep in mind the prophecies of the time of Jacobs trouble when these countries become the first to fall in the great Tribulation, when they will indeed be trampled by the true gentiles, Eastern Europe, Russia, Asia etc.

www.biblical-truth.com...

reply to post by miriam0566

...And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;¨ - its really interesting that alot of these services and things are found in temples and churches. there is always musician and sculptures and candles and....

Interesting post. It is something to think about. I did some research a while back to answer someone's question about an altar dedication for a cathedral. It is to me a strange religion that thinks it has the power to offer Jesus as a sacrifice on their altars. I believe the RCC is the Anti-Christ. The beasts and the whore are symbolic imagery but I have to think it goes back to the same thing that seems to transform itself to always carry out the plans of Satan.
As for Babylon, we live in it and are surrounded by it and it is the mass of confusion that hides the mind from the truth. Only the true hearted will have understanding and will know the truth, as a gift from God.
God bless you and you will know things that are a mystery to the ungodly.
The Revelation is the revealing of Christ and the salvation that he brings, with all the power of God that has been given to him, to insure the ultimate purpose of God, that was planned from eternity.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by jmdewey60]

First between Pretrib and badmedia I think you both have to realize that your useing old testiment laws. The new testiment is our laws. The new testiment is what we follow. So if your going to use scripture to point to our laws of now use new testiment scripture. The old testiment which you both know was for the old ways. Jesus came to fullfill and bring our true laws.

As for the OP most of you posting now mist the OP. Please can we get back on the OP because I really carious how what some of you would say about them. Please watch the videos and all of them they're not long. And reread the OP. God bless

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by miriam0566

 

...And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;¨ - its really interesting that alot of these services and things are found in temples and churches. there is always musician and sculptures and candles and....

Interesting post. It is something to think about. I did some research a while back to answer someone's question about an altar dedication for a cathedral. It is to me a strange religion that thinks it has the power to offer Jesus as a sacrifice on their altars. I believe the RCC is the Anti-Christ. The beasts and the whore are symbolic imagery but I have to think it goes back to the same thing that seems to transform itself to always carry out the plans of Satan.
As for Babylon, we live in it and are surrounded by it and it is the mass of confusion that hides the mind from the truth. Only the true hearted will have understanding and will know the truth, as a gift from God.
God bless you and you will know things that are a mystery to the ungodly.
The Revelation is the revealing of Christ and the salvation that he brings, with all the power of God that has been given to him, to insure the ultimate purpose of God, that was planned from eternity.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by jmdewey60]

whats interesting is this one time i read that passage. i try to do regularly bible reading. so usually i go through 3 to 4 chapters a day. i usually finish the bible within a year, then i switch to english.

this one particular time (several years ago), i was reading in english, and i was flown out to new york to be in a friend of mine´s wedding. anyway that morning i read that particular verse. when i went to the wedding the verse popped in my head. it was like a connection was made.

the irony was amazing because they had musicians, and candles, even the outside was being refurbished which made me think of the craftsman. it was really an interesting moment