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Sumerian tales versus the bible

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posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Gilgamesh, using a temple prostitute named Shamhat, lured Enkidu from his responsibilities and civilized him. His subjects, the animals of the Forest, turned from him. After Gilgamesh caught Enkidu and his Realm, he and Enkidu went after Humbaba. It should be mentioned that Sumerian kings were most often also Priests, to be certain they were probably priests before they became Kings.

When Gilgamesh and Enkidu encountered Humbaba, Gilgamesh tricks him by offering one of his daughters to the King. Gilgamesh obviously uses women in this fashion quite often. It’s obvious that Humbaba is also a King, fully arrayed with Seven Radiances, the Crown of his Glory. After some talk and lies, Humbaba is killed, but who actually landed the blow of death was never fully decided. Just like the Jews and Romans can figure out who murdered Jesus...it some kind of repeating phenomenon in world history.

That explanation is not really proof, but as I wrote it down it became more obvious to me that the Epic of Gilgamesh is an detailed admission of culpability in the murder of the man the western world came to know as Christ in its sacred literature. It also implicates in this murder, armed robbery and home invasion the fallen King and half-brother to the anointed one, Enkidu otherwise known in the Western world as Cain. As promised I will elaborate on the link between Humbaba and Enkidu. Humbaba knew that Enkidu was his half-brother (same father) and that is why he mocked Enkidu for his lack of sight. It is generally understood that the Beast is blind in one eye. I call Gilgamesh the Serpent because of the SH in his name and the name of the god he worshipped, Shamash. Gilgamesh is also a priest and uses women to take down powerful men, all traits of the Serpent in the western tradition and in practice. I tried the best I could to illustrate how the story in Genesis, especially the Chapters regarding Adam, Eve and the Serpent and the Cain and Abel are quite obviously linkable to the Sumerian tales, albeit, not in the manner most of you would have thought.

So I reassert that the Bible and the Sumerian tales are most likely mirror reflections of one another; differing only by PERSPECTIVE.

Just to be clear and fair, Gilgamesh is also a half-brother to Enkidu (same mother) and that is why the Bible attributes Adam’s fall to listening to his wife. Be a man. Had Cain/Enkidu been more in tune to his masculine side. He could have still bedded Shamhat, wouldn’t have had a homosexual relationship with Gilgamesh and wouldn’t have been involved with the murder of his brother.



After all of this Enkidu died…Estranged from both the forest and the city of Uruk.

The only thing I can offer you other than what I wrote is to say look deeper into the character of Gilgamesh. Judge his actions as you’d judge a man today.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by huckfinn]




posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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I would say that because my theory shows that the events in Biblical Genesis and the Epic of Gilgamesh are mirror reflections of one another and that the Biblical tradition of Genesis at least records the same event as the Epic of Gilgamesh they the two are of equal age.

While the archeological record can determine when a specific work is written through carbon dating and such it cannot date the subject matter.



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 06:22 PM
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and that the Biblical tradition of Genesis at least records the same event as the Epic of Gilgamesh they the two are of equal age.


Putting aside the vice versa issue. The logic of the above statement alludes me. I see no proof that the two stories are of the same age. What prevents the biblical story being based in part on the other or again vice versa and being several hundred or thousands of years younger - or older?

I would think the Sumer story is the older but I would also hold that the biblical story was made up long after the former.



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


How can Genesis be dated? There doesn't exist much information to provide a date until the stories after the flood.

On the other hand the Epic of Gilgamesh, records the building of the Walls of Uruk by Gilgamesh. Uruk did have walls. and Gilgamesh is listed as a King. who ruled from Uruk circa 2800 B.C. The story also suggests that Gilgamesh lived after "the flood". Gilgamesh even went to visit the sole survivor of the flood.

If its the same flood as Noah, then Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel are more ancient than the stories of Sumeria by at least 1000 years. So, I guess I was wrong, the Genesis story is far more ancient than the Sumerian tales.

Sumerian Gilgamesh would have been a contemporary of Biblical Nimrod or someone other youngster.







[edit on 1-1-2009 by huckfinn]



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 11:47 PM
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Howdy Huckfinn



How can Genesis be dated?


Hans: Ultimately it cannot but we can date the earliest known copies.



There doesn't exist much information to provide a date until the stories after the flood.


Hans: The problem is that there was no such flood (I presume you are referring to a global flood ala the bible and not one of the periodic floods of the TE)



On the other hand the Epic of Gilgamesh, records the building of the Walls of Uruk by Gilgamesh.


Hans: Gilgamesh may have been a common name or that King named after the legendary Gilgamesh – how many Davids, Noahs and Jesus’s do we have in our own world?



Uruk did have walls. and Gilgamesh is listed as a King. who ruled from Uruk circa 2800 B.C. The story also suggests that Gilgamesh lived after "the flood". Gilgamesh even went to visit the sole survivor of the flood.


Hans: You are taking the myth as accurate history, at best it is hearsay – rather old hearsay, we don’t know if the material as we see it now is accurate.



If its the same flood as Noah, then Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel are more ancient than the stories of Sumeria by at least 1000 years.


Hans: Again you are using a biblical story as a basis of a theory when we happen to know, and have known for many years that their was no biblical flood.



So, I guess I was wrong, the Genesis story is far more ancient than the Sumerian tales.


Hans: You don’t know the date as the source you are trying to use to date it are part of the same materials you are trying to use to date it. Your main data point, the flood, didn't happen, so you are pretty much guessing.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 

The Bible was Orally passed down generations before it was written down!

There is ample proof for a global flood in geology, such as the Burgess sediment strata, The Wheeler shale strata, The Niobabrara Chalk , found throughout the world. You may know of the white cliffs of Dover?

Google video


Notice that all the animals you would expect to see at the bottom of the ocean are on the lowest levels? and birds, higher plains animals are up on top? A global flood would do that.

Also, we need to keep in mind how COMMON the global flood is in cultural belief history around the world.









[edit on 2-1-2009 by Clearskies]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:05 AM
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Howdy Clearskies



The Bible was Orally passed down generations before it was written down!


Hans: Ah we agree, how long ago those stories were thought up is not known but they do seem to reflect certain aspects of Sumerian stories.



There is ample proof for a global flood in geology, such as the Burgess sediment strata, The Wheeler shale strata, The Niobabrara Chalk , found throughout the world. You may know of the white cliffs of Dover?


Hans: Creationism has created a whole arkload (pun intended) of pseudoscientific stuff to try and make this sound scientific, but it has failed. No global flood. Creationism died when the science of geology was born.



Notice that all the animals you would expect to see at the bottom of the ocean are on the lowest levels? and birds, higher plains animals are up on top? A global flood would do that.



Hans: Huh? Sorry no, the scientific evidence is so pervasive against the creationist idea that it would be easier to just say you don’t believe in the reality of our world and prefer a biblical belief instead of presenting fake science in an attempt to keep a very dead idea alive.



Also, we need to keep in mind how COMMON the global flood is in cultural belief histo
ry around the world.


Hans: hmmm humans need water and tend to live next to it. Over tens of thousands of years most people would have experienced floods – most are river related. There are also cultural beliefs in most cultures that animals talk, act like humans and that the Moon isn’t a small planet orbiting our world but was made instead made by various demons, spirits and other oddities out of all kinds of strange things. Folklore is a two edged weapon my friend.

I believe there is a creationism forum in ATS, you might be more comfortable there.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by Clearskies

Notice that all the animals you would expect to see at the bottom of the ocean are on the lowest levels?

The dates on this diagram certainly don't agree with a biblical creation version of natural history. Do you think the dates are all wrong and that the fossils were all placed where they are in the strata during one single flood?

If so, how come there are no mammals in the precambrian period?

What do you mean by animals you would "expect" to see at the lowest levels?




Also, we need to keep in mind how COMMON the global flood is in cultural belief history around the world.

No global cultures or civilisations existed before relatively recently - how would they know about a "global flood"? How would their culture still exist after the flood to document it?



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 06:23 AM
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And another thing... Sumeria was not the first culture in the region. It was partially built upon the ruined Ubaid culture, which was at least 1200 years old when Uruk was built and disappeared suddenly around 3800 B.C., 1000 years before Gilgamesh was King at Uruk.

My theories are all built upon reasonable assumptions. I've neither added or taken away any details and only use the information that's available. The notion that the Gilgamesh who is thought to have been a King at Uruk, according to the Sumerians' Kings lists, the same city the bible attributes to Nimrod, a name that is recorded upon ruins of the region, a son of Ham, who is a son of Noah, who is tenth in the line of Adam via Seth, is a different person from the Gilgamesh written about in the Epic is quite a stretch.

So, without even speculating the existence of a global flood, I've firmly established that the SUBJECT MATTER contained within the Bible is of greater antiquity. Gilgamesh of Uruk, in the Land of Shinar, didn't appear until after Uruk had been built. He didn't build the city, he only strengthened its walls. As far as the Sumerians are concerned their literature only extends back to after Biblical Noah.

Another thing about Sumeria is this, while it is ancient it only lasted about 700 years in total and then it vanished and was replaced by the Akkadian, Semites by language. Its existence was doubted until the early 20th century. By many standards it was a weak and minor civilization when compared to others.

The reason the Sumerian stories have lasted as long as they have is for one reason. Sumerians, and Gilgamesh in particular, killed an exceedingly powerful King and destroyed a very ancient household, the Akkadians helped. It was a murder for which a large price has had to be paid. It was THE crime upon which their whole identity rests.

When I come to this site and read the stories about alien invasions and nibiru/planet x, I know that the Sumerians and Akkadians are up to their old tricks again and their offspring are cooking up a serious plot. Gilgamesh and Enkidu together after all. I guess Gilgamesh found a way to overcome death; not an easy task.

However, Humbaba defeated death as well and has decided to meet his ancient enemies in the field, otherwise known as the War of Terror.

I guess these ancient stories, whether Biblical or not, have useful, practical and modern applications. So, to the OP do not despair in your beliefs.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 06:32 AM
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reply to post by FatherLukeDuke
 


I would like to disagree with your opinion that no global cultures existed in the Ancient past. And would instead assert that Adam's Garden of Eden was in fact the memory of a global culture immortalized in literature.

It was destroyed, long ago.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by illece
I don't know if i have posted in the right section,but i really would like to know which was written first Sumerian tales or the bible ,i am really struggling with my christian believes due to this subject!!

Sumerian tales were not tales at all.they were records from daily transactions inscripted into clays by sumerians not for posterity but simply for recording. and as a fledgeling civilization there must have been an acute awareness by their very own learned peers of how their society started.from the time they started inscribing in clay tablets to the time the printing press was invented so much so has been published and edited and so many beliefs have sprung from these clay tablets.one religion after another developed trying to outsmart and outdo each other. this happened.the hindus came out with their mahabharata the jews with their torahs, then the christians with their infallible bible,the muslim with their quran and not counting the numbers of preachers and from all faith and denominations waving their own "books"and brand of faith and religion.so lets go back to your predicament. it wasnt the sumerian nor the christians nor the jews nor the hindus and mohammad...it was planted there by the powers that be just to be sure we all mess it up.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by huckfinn

I would like to disagree with your opinion that no global cultures existed in the Ancient past. And would instead assert that Adam's Garden of Eden was in fact the memory of a global culture immortalized in literature.

I think this would be very interesting to you, The Two Babylons.
Written in 1853.
It gives great attention to the Flood and global mythology! Especially Babylon.


Therefore in the legends of Janus, we find mixed up with other things derived from an entirely different source, statements not only in regard to his being the "Father of the world," but also his being "the inventor of ships," which plainly have been borrowed from the history of Noah; and therefore, the remarkable way in which he is represented in the figure here presented to the reader may confidently be concluded to have been primarily suggested by the history of the great Diluvian patriarch, whose integrity in his two-fold life is so particularly referred to in the Scripture, where it is said (Gen 6:9), "Noah was just a man, and perfect in his generations," that is, in his life before the flood, and in his life after it. The whole mythology of Greece and Rome, as well as Asia, is full of the history and deeds of Noah, which it is impossible to misunderstand. In India, the god Vishnu, "the Preserver," who is celebrated as having miraculously preserved one righteous family at the time when the world was drowned, not only has the story of Noah wrought up with his legend, but is called by his very name. Vishnu is just the Sanscrit form of the Chaldee "Ish-nuh," "the man Noah," or the "Man of rest." In the case of Indra, the "king of the gods," and god of rain, which is evidently only another form of the same god, the name is found in the precise form of Ishnu. Now, the very legend of Vishnu, that pretends to make him no mere creature, but the supreme and "eternal god," shows that this interpretation of the name is no mere unfounded imagination. Thus is he celebrated in the "Matsya Puran": "The sun, the wind, the ether, all things incorporeal, were absorbed into his Divine essence; and the universe being consumed, the eternal and omnipotent god, having assumed an ancient form, REPOSED mysteriously upon the surface of that (universal) ocean. But no one is capable of knowing whether that being was then visible or invisible, or what the holy name of that person was, or what the cause of his mysterious SLUMBER. Nor can any one tell how long he thus REPOSED until he conceived the thought of acting; for no one saw him, no one approached him, and none can penetrate the mystery of his real essence." (Col. KENNEDY'S Hindoo Mythology) In conformity with this ancient legend, Vishnu is still represented as sleeping four months every year. Now, connect this story with the name of Noah, the man of "Rest," and with his personal history during the period of the flood, when the world was destroyed, when for forty days and forty nights all was chaos, when neither sun nor moon nor twinkling star appeared, when sea and sky were mingled, and all was one wide universal "ocean," on the bosom of which the patriarch floated, when there was no human being to "approach" him but those who were with him in the ark, and "the mystery of his real essence is penetrated" at once, "the holy name of that person" is ascertained, and his "mysterious slumber" fully accounted for. Now, wherever Noah is celebrated, whether by the name of Saturn, "the hidden one,"--for that name was applied to him as well as to Nimrod, on account of his having been "hidden" in the ark, in the "day of the Lord's fierce anger,"--or, "Oannes," or "Janus," the "Man of the Sea," he is generally described in such a way as shows that he was looked upon as Diphues, "twice-born," or "regenerate."



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by huckfinn
reply to post by FatherLukeDuke
 


I would like to disagree with your opinion that no global cultures existed in the Ancient past. And would instead assert that Adam's Garden of Eden was in fact the memory of a global culture immortalized in literature.

It was destroyed, long ago.



Considering that its one of the newest additions to the Scriptures and that it was a "revelation" akin to Blossom Goodchild's channeling, and much incredible abuse, repression, and murder of women has occurred due to this, its an historical document, myth or legend, its just a "vision". Considering woman who took pain relief during pregnancy were burned to death as punishment by the decree of the Stuart family in Scotland, it was a very ugly little channeling too.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by mystiq]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by mystiq]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 


You are right. I enjoy reading myths from all cultures. I really enjoy them when they've been translated into American english. Thanks.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by mystiq


Considering that its one of the newest additions to the Scriptures and that it was a "revelation"

Are you saying Genesis is the 'newest' addition?
Wiki


These texts were composed independently between 950 BC and 500 BC and underwent numerous processes of redaction, emerging in their current form in around 450 BC.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by VelvetSplash
 


thanks for reply
I have read the different Mesopotamian myths in fact anything i could find on the net i get google blogs pertaining to sum er and Sumerian tales, also zacharia Sitchin books and any other i can find on the subject!
The religion i belong to goes through the bible every two years, and as i have been a member for twenty six years i have read it a few times.But we are taught that the bible is 100 percent true!the stories in the bible are true! the god of the bible is the true god obey or suffer the consequences.
until this last year i have never doubted it was true, according to the bible we were created just over 6,000 years ago,it wasn't until i got a computer that i began researching the topic..



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by illece
I don't know if i have posted in the right section,but i really would like to know which was written first Sumerian tales or the bible ,i am really struggling with my christian believes due to this subject!!


Listen to the warnings my friend, once you begin to study and research the origins of the Bible and the God of the Christians, there is no going back. You will never thing the same way again.
This goes for anyone who is questioning their belief system. Also, you will be quite angry that you have been lied to...I will say no more, good luck in your quest for the Grail.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:25 PM
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I would add Illece

That your journey of discovery will be interesting. Try to avoid reading only fringe writers and get a well rounded view of what the positions are.

Where possible read the original documents themselves, not someone interpretation.

You can find translations of many of these documents online now days. However translations vary based on the bias of the translator.

Good luck

[edit on 2/1/09 by Hanslune]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by huckfinn
 


While I respect the many hours of reading you have obviously done on Wikipedia, please understand for one that wiki is loose knowledge, at best, and hardly something I would use to clarify a point. More importantly, however, is your basis for fact in comparing the Gilgamesh characters to bibical ones. You seem to say that Gilgamesh is likened to Cain because bananas are yellow and some cats are fluffy, therefore I have proven my point beyond the shadow of a doubt. Your comparisons could not possibly be more loose, and you base them almost entirely upon assumptions that certain things were true about a culture we have almost no information about any longer.

The largest misconception you are having is that the Gilgamesh of history, who ruled circa 2700 BC is the same that the Epic is written for. This is highly unlikely. As Hans pointed out before, rulers would often assume the name, and thereby even the credit of rulers that had come long before them. Look at the Egyptian Ramses line and the stories regarding the Sea People, or the comparisons made in later histories between Nebuchadnezzar and Nabonidus. They were called the same person, when in reality one came into power nearly thirty years after the death of the other.

I would recommend taking your own advice and studying the literature a bit more carefully. If your comparisons here strengthen your own faith and bring you closer to a better understanding of the world as a whole, then more power to you, but what you are selling here just isn't packing a punch.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by EdenKaia
 


Its obvious that likening Gilgamesh to the Serpent is personally offensive to you and it will take much convincing that he is an Evil man. I think I meant to say that Enkidu was Cain; a character I am more sympathetic to.

First off, I looked at the Sumerian Kings list...Just as I thought, the list only includes one Gilgamesh, ruler of Uruk and builder of its walls. Stated in literature to be the contemporary of Aga, a King at Kish that is attested to historically. I think this firmly establishes WHO and WHEN. Please fell free to produce evidence of this fictional Gilgamesh that your point of view requires for your beliefs to make any sense.

Second. This one and only Gilgamesh ruled at Uruk, taken to be Erech of the bible a city attributed to Nimrod; a person who is made out in the Bible to be a violent tyrant and sexual deviant (he loved having sex with his mother and even fathered a Son by his own mother, sort of like I suspect Jennifer Hudson's brother did.), but more importantly a man who'd have lived before Gilgamesh and after Noah. Yet, another data point that establish WHEN and WHERE. Please offer some evidence of scholarship in your response. At least I am basing my beliefs on widely available material. Provide me with a source to dispute my claims. Your response is just not doing it for me.

I am not a source snob; I'll accept Wikipedia.

This one and only Gilgamesh of both literature and history. Is a sexual deviant, even by modern standards of acceptable behavior, a womanizer and a murderer. He was also a Priest and a King. He is my #1 suspect for being the serpent of Genesis and also the False Prophet of Revelation.

Honestly, I can't believe that you would think someone would want to take the name of Gilgamesh. He was not a good person. I think the story was as popular as it was to teach a lesson of what NOT to be. How many Caligula's ruled Rome?

Nevertheless, I have done all I can to illustrate that the most ancient of all Sumerian literature, and what is considered to be the first in history, shows that it contains stories of people who lived long after the characters mentioned in the Bible.

P.S. After Gilgamesh killed Humbaba, he cut off his head, put it in a leather sack and presented it to Enlil. Nice guy.


[edit on 2-1-2009 by huckfinn]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by huckfinn]





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