Constitutional Crisis In Canada - Above Politics SE01

Sorry Intrepid, if the coalition of the useless had succeeded in their initial attempt, it would have been Dion. Iggy had not yet replaced him. As to the rest of your post, as I said, we must agree to disagree. Especially if you believed the coalition was a viable alternative. But I won't go there for now.

Cheers.

I didn't say it was "viable". I said that if Harper doesn't pull back it WILL be reality. You don't think that being beggared would not create a response? And we HAVE had coalition gov'ts in the past.

Yes, we had a single coalition government, almost 100 years ago.

And it was useless as well. I never said it was unprecedented.

I said it was useless.

I prefer a parliament that works and passes legislation in a stable environment, not the Italian or Jewish model that changes every 8 months at the whim of one or two souls who get their knickers in a knot because they don't get their way.

There is a huge difference between workable and idealistic Intrepid.

Canadians, and I, prefer the former. That's why the majority were so soundly pissed that Dion, Layton and the traitorous Bloc tried to usurp the process.

But I guess you and I won't see eye to eye on this I fear. A shame really, since I have read many of your posts and found them to be interesting and well thought out.

reply to post by Cynic

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I think we've gotten into that ole ATS gambut of "taking sides". That's not the case for me. I didn't say I support a coalition. I was merely stating that it will happen if Harper doesn't back off. They won't be bullied, that's all.

Personally I think a coalition will be a disaster. Check the egos involved. Iggy, Dueseppe, Layton.

Why would a coalition be a disaster?
It would force the politicians to do what they are paid to do: discuss, listen, compromise, learn how to communicate effectively, work together.
Harper does not understand how to do any of those things, but Canadian parliament has been created to embrace, indeed forces elected officials to work productively together despite party politics. That is a fundamental basis of the Canadian House of Commons.
If a government leader does not have the support of the House, he usually does the honourable thing and resigns, his replacement usually calls an election tout de suite.
Harper has not displayed any honour or humility throughout this crisis. He has been bullying the electorate and the opposition and needs to understand that God gave us two ears and one mouth so we need to listen twice as much as we talk.

reply to post by Cynic

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reply to post by solo32_98

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The country would forever (at least whilst the coalition was together) be beholden to the very party that seeks to break the country apart. It would have been headed by a twice rejected and failed leader in Dion (now by a Canadianized American in Iggy) Unofficially, we would have a separatist PM in Duceppe because everything would need to be vetted through the traitors in the Bloc. We would also find our treasury spent into oblivion by the NDP

I can't believe anyone who calls him/herself Canadian can stomach such an idea. Disaster - absolutely.

reply to post by Cynic

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I really cannot understand why there is such resistance to a coalition government. The system was designed to accomodate coalitions. If it doesn`t work, they go back to the drawing board and try something that might.
Regardless of whether the Bloq or NDP are calling the shots, they only have as much say as the next guy. If they can`t decide, they disolve parliament and call an election; case closed. Parliament has not been working effectively for 2 years now, the current party in power has no idea how to compromise or deal with opposition. The only reason Harper hasn`t been tossed out on his butt before now is the opposition parties did not have their stuff together enough to campaign properly.

Harper is definately not the man for the job, currently. We need someone who can bring people and ideas together and come up with the best solution for the country. He needs to lose his ego in this process and listen to other`s ideas, regardless of their party affiliations. I suspect that he is intelligent enough to make wise decisions, but he really needs to have ALL the information first to do so. So far, he has not allowed anyone else`s voice to be heard.

reply to post by solo32_98

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Are you an informed and educated voter, or just an lefty-moonbat idealist? Take a look at some of the other countries that have had endless coalition governments. Italy and Israel pop into mind very quickly.

They change governments faster than shoes. Since they're so busy arguing policy, their own country's growth, and standard of living suffers.

No thanks, I prefer stability to anarchy any day. With the coalition of idiots attempting to wrest power from the duly elected government at the expense of everything else, that's all we could ever come to expect. Just listen to the tape of Layton's caucus meeting - he never had any intention of supporting Harper, in any way no matter what was tabled. Layton is a self-serving jerk and cannot be trusted any more than the traitors in the Bloc.

Harper needs to go. I agree. But not under the circumstances proposed by the coalition. Unlike the previous and only coalition we have endured, this would set the tone forever of an endless cycle of do nothing infighting by our elected officials.

Love them or hate them, the conservatives have passed more legislation in the past two years, than the Liberals did in the previous ten.

And that's a fact.

I've enjoyed reading the comments here on this. Thanks for taking the time to listen to the interview.

First off, I have to agree with Cynic on the coalition. The concept itself is a solid one but like most things, real world applications usually end with a different outcome than what was put on paper. My personal belief is that the only reason this came about, and I believe it was in place long before the election as an option to the Left, was the NDP saw it as the only true way to Governance, even if in a limited capacity. Canada will never elect a NDP government unless some major shift in public thinking occurs, which I don't see happening in my lifetime.

As for the Bloc, they will always be the wild card in a minority. I have no love for there policies or stated goals believe me, but there value to both sides of the fence is undeniable. Both parties have worked with them before to get legislation passed since '03. Both sides have also conspired with them to bring down the government. As long as we have Minority Governments, the Bloc hold an undue amount of power in Parliament. I don't like it and my region suffers for it but that is the way it is. The only way there power is lessened or even negated is by the Conservatives and Liberals working together, which hasn't happened all that much, especially under Dion. His methods of withholding MP's from voting only added to the Blocs position.

I can only surmise that the Liberals agreed to this with Dion as the head to speed up the removal of him as leader. Why they thought that a coalition with Dion at the head, whom just led the Liberals to there worst showing in a General Election in, well, ever would work and be accepted publicly only leads me to believe that this was the reasoning behind it. The Party just saved a lot of money by not having to go through a Leadership race again in May.

After reading, listening and talking to people over the last month, I am pretty sure that the Conservative budget will pass come the end of the month. With Iggy at the helm now, the Liberals need time to get there ducks in a row before they go after the Cons again. I can see another fall election this year. That's my one prediction for the year.

As an aside, an interesting article from the Globe on Thursday.

The smart money says Stephen Harper exits this year



The author makes an interesting case.

reply to post by Cynic

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It never ceases to amaze me the vitriol that some conservatives spew. Can you discuss this with a little decorum please?

While the outcome is a foregone conclusion, there will still be a leadership convention in May. Iggy is the interim leader and by the party constitution, they must hold the convention.



Cynic, don't you think it's even slightly disingenuous for Harper to go on about the 'evil seperatists' in government when he was willing to join up with them less than 5 years ago?



[edit on 4-1-2009 by Duzey]

While a leadership convention in name, it is in reality a affirmation of Ignatief as party leader. Neither Leblanc nor Rae are actively campaigning and have handed the party to Iggy.

My personal feeling is that the May convention will be nothing more than a policy/caucus gathering to firm up positions going into the summer. Ignatief will be passed the reigns officially but that is already a forgone conclusion.

reply to post by GAOTU789

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Isn't that what I said?

That's exactly my point. Harper is grasping onto a very tenuous leadership. He has sought the support of the Bloc in the past, following Parliamentary protocol. Now when the tables have turned he runs crying to Mummy (Governor General) and prorogues Parliament.
These are hardly the actions of an honourable leader. Harper is the one who should be looking for support throughout the opposition. The only way he can do that is to communicate effectively and be willing to compromise.

Personally, I hope that Harper is able to satisfy the opposition with the budget he will present when Parliament resumes.

I haven't listened to the podcast yet but as the events of coming to an agreement on a coalition were happening, it left a very bad taste in my mouth. There was too much of a scent of NDP style "let's play parliamentary games" about the whole thing.

I don't think the opposition had the guts to simply let it be known that if they didn't like the budget, they would vote down the government and have another election. I think at that point Harper in another election would have flattened them.

Harper has to please the opposition in important matters. It's just a fact of life in a minority government. The last guy who said that he was going to govern as if he had a majority (while in fact heading a minority government) was Joe Clark, who by being a lousy poker player, gave Pierre Trudeau a second lease on life.

The last Canadian leader I liked was "da boss." He kept us out of Iraq, has said he doesn't favour the North American Security and Prosperity Partnership and actually tried to throttle some nitwit who got too close to him at a demonstration. (His wife is tough too. Didn't she clobber some guy who tried to get at him at home once.)

My 2 cents worth.


[edit on 5-1-2009 by ipsedixit]

It seems to me that you don't understand the reason for the bloc party to even exist but let clarify something here please. The bloc party comes from the fact that some provinces have hard time to be acknowledged in it's rights and it's free will. Each province is supposed to have the right to pass their legislation bills and govern the way they yjink is right for their people. I am sure that eventhough you are proud to be Candian, you must admit that the federal government is always trying to overpass their assignments and their authority... Knowing that fact and the fact that most of the time the federal party in place is put there by the minority! If you look at the popular vote, Harper didn't get in place by the majority that is far far away from being the fact... So if you take this in your mind, that the majority of the people in Canada didn't vote for Stephen Harper, you van ask yourself where the democracy went?

A vast majority of the people in Quebec province likes the Canada but hates the federal government, and that is why they are voting for the bloc party, they want to be well represented where it hurts the most. Of course a lot of people wants to seperate and it is because they don't feel respected in the constitution... Did you know that the constitution has been passed without the consent of the Quebec province? So if we are not in the constituion, we are not a signer of this constitution why should we be constrained to follow those rules? Anyway that is another subject but the main fact is that you guys from other provinces should have a bloc party for yourself to, maybe things would be more even... But please don,t call them traitor or god knows what other terms you called them, they are people put in place democraticly to check at our province's interests and they are doing a damn good job. And the coalition was a legal one and they did this coalition to prevent Harper to pass a bill that would cut off the financing of the other parties... you can see here the kind of low blow he was trying to throw at the democracy here...

I hope that every single Canadian can see what is at stake here democraticly speaking and that you wont focus on the fact that Quebec people are just tired of this big machine and wants to get out of this.

Maybe if federal government wasn't that authoritarian, we would love to stay in this country. And please no more of that canadian currency b.s. that is old polititian speech, we built that currency with our own blood and even without the currency we would be able to survive... so do you... please think about it!

I love you guys eventhough our political views may differ, we are after all, all humans, we should be able to get along and verify that we have all the same problems... we are not being listened to by the rulers of this country...

Respectfully Perseide

reply to post by Duzey

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I don't see it that way Duzey. While I have agreed with many of your opinions in the past, this time the point is different.

The coalition was formed out of Layton's contempt for Harper and in a way Dion (I will expand momentarily) He was recorded in a recent caucus meeting as saying that he would vote anything down for any reason (paraphrased, but accurate never the less) just to gain a foothold in the government side of the house. Since he knows full well that a snowball has a better chance in a blast furnace than he does of being elected PM, I see his actions as being in contemot of the electorate and parliament in general.

As to Dion, he left the poor sot in charge and has effectively rid us of a useless and ineffective leader. Friends wouldn't do that to one another.

As to the Bloc and Harper, it is true he attempted to gain favor with the Bloc and form a loose coalition. But only to the extent of exploring and then forgetting about the idea. The other clowns actually tried to take power by pushing the country and the government into it.

I have never been a fan of Harper, and he must go. That is for sure, sooner than later. But I'll be damned if I watch a bunch of also rans put the votes of the electorate behind their own selfish ambitions. If they can organize and run candidates in a majority of the ridings as a coalition, with a platform for all to see, ok we can hear them out. At present, they have no budget, no platform and no direction, other than to collect their paychecks for two years or so.

Oh, and Intrepid, if I offended your delicate sensibilities earlier, I apologize, however I did not believe any of my words were out of line, given the forum we are posting in. As a matter of fact, they sum my thoughts up on this coalition travesty rather well.

Peace all.

I voted for Layton, yeah I know, flame me if you must...

My point being, I too am against a coalition government.

Sure, I didn't vote for Harper... but Canada DID.
When I saw the election results, I accepted them. I recognized Harper as my duly elected representative, regardless of not having voted for him personally.

Once I saw Layton side with the Libs and BQ in an attempt to undermine the vote of the Canadian people, I lost complete respect for NDP.



I demand and expect party members to respect the will of the people, whether or not I agree with them personally.

No, I wasn't happy when the Conservatives attempted it themselves way back, and I'm not happy that the NDP, BQ, and LIB parties are trying it now.

RESPECT the will of THE PEOPLE!

reply to post by johnsky

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THAT, johnsky, is precisely the issue here. You have said it quite well, and nothing can be added. Well done sir!