Think the army won't turn on it's citizens?

Let's say a verifiably friendly group or race of advanced (enough) beings (who could simply be extraplanetary humans) were to decide that a Prime Directive (or whatever it's called if different) violation/annulment is ethical and warranted enough, given the ecological realities (namely by far of toxicity and resource depletion versus human population growth), and therefore make themselves officially known to us. What then if the military action is the vehement (make that rabid) opposition to the right of whatever intelligent beings who wish to reveal themselves to in fact do so? How many readers and posters on this site would merrily side with the government(s)/military(ies)? How many would do so surprisingly enough?

last edit to add: Remember that the PD doesn't mean absolutely no involvement/activity; just absolutely no absolute proof.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by Lightworth]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by Lightworth]

reply to post by jhill76


yes sir,i understand what your saying,i didnt mean to imply that you guys would shoot for no reason.

Originally posted by jhill76

I think people took this as let's send in the troops. I meant if the troops were already on the ground, they would indeed turn on the citizens. (Not, rambo style, even the smallest things like arrests.)

I don't mean shooting at citizens at will. But, put the military in an authoritative position over citizens and let's see what happens. There will be chaos, life will not be the same, when you can't go out partying and a curfew is in effect, you situation has changed, and therefore you will change. Regular citizens will change and therefore the military will have to adjust to this change, with strength and by example.

Well think about this. The civilian population outnumbers civilian authority by a vast margin. If just a fraction of the populace were to cause chaos, that would still equate to a severe unbalance for local authorities, hence they would need help to control and bring things back under control.

Its not a new concpet that the civilian authority would use military for assistance. And just like the civilian policeman who is facing an out of control freak waving a gun or other weapon and making threatening movements towards the officer, a military person would do the very same thing as the civilian officer would...defend themselves and prevent the crazy from harming them or anyone else.

Hopefully the crazy will put down their gun/weapon and realize how dumb it was to do such a thing and face the music for their actions and not have to be put down by the use of deadly force.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If people want to stirr up trouble, they should realize that they will face equal if not stronger reaction in return so that the rest of civilized society who is not causing problems are not put into harms way.

There is no reason for people to go stirr crazy and cause chaos and give government reason to declare martial laws and give reason for regular patrols by military troops on US soil. It would only happen if there is reason to do such things, and the only reason would be because a few out of control ones desire such things to occur since they are the ones who started the chaos to begin with.

If everyone just remains calm and does things the right way, there wont be martial law, there wont be troops marching down mainstreet USA, there wont be riots and chaos and gunfire. Its really quite simple. Rioting doesnt change a thing for anyone. There is proven history to that.




Cheers!!!!

[edit on 26-12-2008 by RFBurns]

reply to post by RFBurns


Again, maybe I should be more clear. I am not saying mass chaos will cause martial law. I am saying if someone wanted to invoke martial law by whatever means it happens (from citizens to the President to FEMA, anyone). That citizens, soldiers, policeman, fireman, will turn against citizens. I used the military as an example, because this argument is brought up on ATS all the time.

Reading this thread I kept thinking of what happened at Kent State. How the military opened fire on unarmed American civilians. I didn't see anyone mention it, maybe I missed it. But, this has already happened in the US. Not to mention when the military put down the protests by WWI veterans demanding their pensions during the depression with the use of force, including tanks. What about when the military went around burning down shanty towns during the depression forcing the homeless to seek shelter elsewhere. The widespread abuses of federal troops of the civil war throughout the south which by the way led to the Posee Comitatus act of 1878.

You are very naive if you think they wont do it again, especially during a economic crash and the chaos that would ensue.

If everyone just remains calm and does things the right way, there wont be martial law, there wont be troops marching down main street USA, there wont be riots and chaos and gunfire. Its really quite simple. Rioting doesn't change a thing for anyone. There is proven history to that.

Yeah, the starving people of debt crippled France, that started rioting and revolting against their elitists, that was later called the French Revolution, led to absolutely nothing worthwhile and good.

[edit on 26/12/08 by Pfeil]

Originally posted by Tinman67
All it takes is a little, very little, searching through our own history to find out just what our own will do to us if ordered.
Examples like the WWI Vets in D.C. during the Depression, The National Gaurd murdering striking mine workers (Rednecks) in Colorado, I believe or the Kent State incident are merely the tip of the iceberg.
Young men and women have time and again been used to attack their own. I believe that this is one reason that our forefathers were against "standing armies". This was the reason behind Posse Comatades [spelling].

Yeah. Also remember that a lot of soldiers now come from the marginalized sectors of society. They're not really the best educated or enlightened.

reply to post by jhill76


Well why would those firemen, police, military or other turn against the citizens just because someone in government declares martial law?

Are citizens automatically declared criminals and should be turned against becasue there happens to be martial law?

That is not what martial law is about or what it means, nor does it mean that authority turns against all citizens. If there are those few of the citizen population that purposely start trouble, it is those specific groups who will be targeted by authority. It will not cause the authority to put down a blanket policy that every single citizen is now a trouble maker and needs to be dealt with.

Basically all of this is extreme scenario maybe that wont even come close to happening. You dont need to clarify anything because nothing would happen to honest folks who can maintain their civility and not go nuts because some curfew has been enacted. And the curfew would not be enacted..ie martial law, if there is no reason to do so in the first place.

Again, even if martial law is put into place, that does not mean the it is free for all hunting of innocent civilians who are going about their daily business. These people have no reason to be rounded up, hunted down, chased after as if they were criminals.

Simply, the extreme scenario wont happen. Not unless the people want it to happen, then thats a different story, and for that to occur, every single citizen, from seniors to adults to children, would have to be acting like wild apes and purposely destroying property, causing harm to each other, and acting like wild mindless animals.

I dont think that will be the case.




Cheers!!!!

reply to post by alyosha1981

Well lets see did the Japanese throw down their weapons & come running out & surrendering? I asked my Father this question & he said "HELL NO" He also said that this particular war which really has never ended, would have ended years ago had him & his former compartriots had been fighting & Truman been President. I guess he liked whole Split Atom take on warfare & really digs Mushroom Clouds. But I wasn't there so I'm just guessing. I also asked my Father what he would do if in fact, our military turned on us? & he in his inimitible way said "HA they don't have the balls hell they've been fighting the same damned war now for almost 2 decades & can't get that right.

reply to post by RFBurns

You are very naive if you think they wont do it again, especially during a economic crash and the chaos that would ensue.

I have to agree with that. Going back and forth you have it set in your mind that people will not act like apes if Walmart just happened to close and the local grocer didn't have any more food. When this happens, let's see if people be civil.

Look at how people went crazy when Wal-Mart opened on Black Friday and killed a man. When people were told the store was closing because of a death, people were like what, I've been waiting here for hours. So, saying people won't act crazy for something even on a larger scale which has been proven people will is really a mute argument.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by jhill76]

reply to post by alyosha1981


May 4th 1970 Kent Ohio Kent State University National Guardsmen open fire on unarmed students 4 dead Have we forgotten already this "incident"

reply to post by jhill76


People wont go crazy if they just take the time right now to be prepared instead of wasting so much time spreading gloom and doom inuendo.

How about showing those who dont know where to start preparing how to prepare? How about sharing knowledge that will actually be of some good to others instead of spreading fear and anxiety in an already stressed out populace?

Im being naive? Heh, at least I have practical and sensible answers that will not only prevent me and my family from acting like wild animals looking for something to eat, but I also have knowledge to share with those who dont know what to do.

If you want to believe that you will be rounded up and chased after and run the rest of your life in a crisis, well be my guest. Certianly no one will stop anyone from acting crazy. Again, it will be very clear who needs control and who wont. And it is clear what the right choices are and which ones are not.

Ive made mine, and have prepared for the last 20 years. I would suggest those who have not, had better start now before its too late and find your wally world shelves empty.

Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Its your choice. Just dont make it my choice when I have already made the choice that wont give me reason to go crazy when the shelves are bare.




Cheers!!!!

reply to post by RFBurns


Hmmm. I don't know if you are directing that to me or just people in general. But, I don't think this thread in any way shape or form spreading doom and gloom. Merely, showing studies that people will change if you change their situation. The military against citizens is a common argument here on ATS and I think that those studies show whomever who are, you will change.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by RFBurns

 

You are very naive if you think they wont do it again, especially during a economic crash and the chaos that would ensue.

I have to agree with that. Going back and forth you have it set in your mind that people will not act like apes if Walmart just happened to close and the local grocer didn't have any more food. When this happens, let's see if people be civil.

Look at how people went crazy when Wal-Mart opened on Black Friday and killed a man. When people were told the store was closing because of a death, people were like what, I've been waiting here for hours. So, saying people won't act crazy for something even on a larger scale which has been proven people will is really a mute argument.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by jhill76]

I worked at WalMart for sevral years, you can learn more about the human mind and general psychology working at WalMart for a year than you can at any high class university. I have seen people fight over parking spaces, one time two whole families started brawling because one family took to long to load their purchases. I have seen two women fight over a tickle me elmo, one woman bit the other and in response the other woman broke the first woman's nose. I have even seen a few people flip out over losing their cell phone reception inside WalMart and I mean flipout as in threatening managers and screaming at people. I have even with my own eyes and ears seen a man threaten a woman's life that worked at customer service because she refused to refund money for a lawn mower that was over five years old and was heavily used.

Take away the luxuries of life and the things people expect and demand to be there for their own comfort and pleasure and you will see the civilized turn into animals and they will devour each other.


reply to post by RFBurns



You don't seem to understand is that so many people expect certain things in life. Like a job, a steady paycheck, amongst many other things and you can't compare the world of today to that of the Great Depression because humanity has become far more dependant of far more things. I am talking about full collapse of the economy, the Great Depression was just that, a depression

Despite what you may think, you can not prepare for everything. Not even the thought processes of your neighbors or others in general, who in all likelyhood, would turn on you if you have plenty and they have none.


[edit on 26/12/08 by Pfeil]

Sorry, this post and the one above were suppose to be one post.

[edit on 26/12/08 by Pfeil]

i think this is a very good example of how the circumstances can dictate behavior.

this is actually the first thing that popped in my head after reading the OP's article.

Japanese American internment refers to the forcible relocation and internment of approximately 110,000 Japanese nationals and Japanese Americans to housing facilities called "War Relocation Camps", in the wake of Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor

President Franklin Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones", from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and most of Oregon and Washington, except for those in internment camps

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 26-12-2008 by turbokid]

reply to post by turbokid




Ah FFS! I can't belive I forgot about the Japanese-Americans!

Originally posted by RFBurns
reply to post by jhill76

 

How about showing those who dont know where to start preparing how to prepare? How about sharing knowledge that will actually be of some good to others instead of spreading fear and anxiety in an already stressed out populace?

Right. Like they would believe you. They're too busy watching football and guzzling beer.

In a hypothetical scenario, the economy gets real bad. Bailout after Bailout after Bailout doesn't work and the US governments credit rating is downgraded heavily to don't lend! Mass Unemployment, industries crumbling, store after store being closed. Abandoned buildings everywhere(including houses), homelessness rises as entire families are forced unto the streets. Employment Insurance and most Federal, State, Municipal services diminish severely as there is no more money to fund anything and no longer having the ability to borrow as their debts are already massive. Huge tax increases on those who still have jobs will force those people into poverty also as inflation will be sky high and a loaf of bread could cost $100 or more and you might have to wait in a line-up for hours.

This will lead to a sharp increase in crime as desperate starving people will do whatever it takes to survive. I don't see anything as being "Off the Table" in what people will do. This will overload the law enforcement apparatus who will then need military assistance to try and return order. This will invoke Marshall Law Nation wide with curfews and the whole bottle of wax. Those not in the let's say top 40% of society and those who still have a mediocre existence will view this as good thing(GUARD Complex). The other 60% will adopt the the (PRISONER Complex) and those FEMA Camps all around the Nation will be filled. There will be a certain period of time where arrests and internment will be the result. That I feel won't work and the Military will use special convened courts under Military Law to try and execute dissenters in public to send a message. Eventually the point will get across after a lot of Executions and civil disobedience will end.

On the Military and Law Enforcement Side, the executions will begin immediately after Marshall Law is invoked. Failure to comply will result in a court martial, conviction and execution by firing squad. The word will get around quick and all orders will be followed no matter what. They will do the unthinkable if ordered to, or they will die.

The SELF-PRESERVATION instinct is very strong, most people(GUARD OR PRISONER) would rather live than die. They will do whatever it takes, complicity or atrocity to survive. This isn't just a doomsday, yet plausible scenario for the US. This could happen to any country. Some are just more vulnerable due to their financial situations.

I hope we here in Canada can weather the STORM a little better, all of us worldwide as individuals and as governments "Must let cooler heads prevail" and think things through. Actions do have consequences and we are intelligent animals let's prove why we're at the top of the food chain by using our heads and not killing each other off physically and killing off the only place we have to live so far. But I fear given the chance, the human race will prove we're not that bright and it will be as bad as our worst nightmares.

PEACE IN 2009 AND FOREVER

**I realized there were spelling mistakes and such but I'm too damn drunk and lazy to change them. FORGIVE ME ATS'ers

[edit on 26-12-2008 by DEEZNUTZ]

The spiritual aspects of this are even more compelling than the physical/psychological ones. The majority of people are not in control of themselves. They are unaware of it and that is the worst part. Kind of like a bunch of zombies waiting to be called into duty.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by antar]

reply to post by alyosha1981


Another study, conducted by a psychologist named Milgram, called Milgrams shock study, should be examined by you.