Think the army won't turn on it's citizens?

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posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by kattraxx
 


Keep in mind both sides were uniformed soldiers. In effect, 2 countries fighting to become one under one set of rules.

Big difference between the civil war and soldiers shooting innocent men, women and children CAUSE SOMEONE SAID SO .


You don't think the civil war soldiers shot innocent men, women and children? Besides, I'm not talking justification here, for either side; not the point. Point is, with the right propoganda, you can get almost anyone to kill almost anyone.

Read up on Kent State. Uniformed soliders killing student protesters armed with rocks.

[edit on 12/26/08 by kattraxx]




posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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It's really sad that good soldiers, good people are the ones getting insulted.
It's even more sad that so many have such little respect for those who are willing to give up their lives to protect us.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by crmanager
[more i dont hate the military but im smart enough to know that a stranger is only gonna worry about his own family,not me.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


im not insulting the military,just stating a fact that history has proven over and over



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 03:07 PM
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This is what you are not getting! In the event of martial law it would not be US troops but troops from the United Nations.FOREIGN TROOPS. Get that inta ya. Red Chinese perhaps, Israeli and the list goes on. We need our boys home NOW to defend us from what is to come.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


OK they fired first. I stand corrected.
However, is it illegal to posses Firearms in the US. Are grenade casings illegal? I have seen them in Surplus stores and at Gun shows.
I'm not saying the Davidians were or were not going to use them but I think we still live under "innocent until proven guilty." Wait, it's the other way around now isn't it?
I am very certain that there are MANY groups that have modified their semi's.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by kattraxx

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by kattraxx
 


Keep in mind both sides were uniformed soldiers. In effect, 2 countries fighting to become one under one set of rules.

Big difference between the civil war and soldiers shooting innocent men, women and children CAUSE SOMEONE SAID SO .


You don't think the civil war soldiers shot innocent men, women and children?

Again, not the point. The civil war was about 2 opposing, uniformed, identified enemies. Innocent people die all the time in war, UNFORTUNATELY, however, there is a huge difference between collateral damage and some instances of random brutality and ONLY RANDOM BRUTALITY against civilians.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Muundoggie
reply to post by jfj123
 


OK they fired first. I stand corrected.
However, is it illegal to posses Firearms in the US.

It is currently illegal to posses automatic weapons.


Are grenade casings illegal?

Not positive but as far as I am aware, YES.


I have seen them in Surplus stores and at Gun shows.

Those are dummies or inert, as opposed to prepped live grenade casings. Everything I've read states that dummy/inert/replica grenades are manufactured so the cannot be made live.


I'm not saying the Davidians were or were not going to use them

You don't build a grenade unless you're going to use it.


but I think we still live under "innocent until proven guilty." Wait, it's the other way around now isn't it?

No. The Davidians shot at ATF agents when they tried to serve them. They had enough proof for a judge to issue a warrant. This was not a blind raid.


I am very certain that there are MANY groups that have modified their semi's.

Yes, I'm sure there are. It's a federal offense to do so.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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Full auto weapons are not illegal here in the US, and you can buy all you want, provided you can afford them and the tax.

There are two scenarios.

One is for a military man to have been placed on a post, ordered to guard and protect it. Even if it were me and American citizens assaulted me or my position, I'd be killing folks as fast as I could. After all, I was attacked while performing my task as ordered.

The second is a peacekeeping task. To randomly go on assault against "regular" Americans would not be performed. To shoot looters would be performed by a few.

Our military are not going to war on the American people, nor will it allow others to do so. You can get that in your head right now.

Nor are "normal" American citizens going to allow elements of any military to go on the offensive against ordinary citizens.

There are literally million and millions of veterans, many combat veterans who are among these "civilians."

The first time a Division goes on the offensive, from any country, invited or not, that's one dead-assed group of SOB's.

In this world, there are many things to be feared.

Pissed off American citizens is right at the top of the list.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


they say the jews in germany thought that way to,look what happened



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:44 PM
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tin soldiers, and Nixon's comming. Four dead in Ohio. Just to remind those in doubt.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
Full auto weapons are not illegal here in the US, and you can buy all you want, provided you can afford them and the tax.


In the United States, machine guns registered after 1986 have been off the public market since the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, though on April 21, 2008, Governor Kathleen Sebelius signed a bill allowing the sale and possession of NFA weapons in Kansas. The law took effect on July 1, 2008.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
I think this will change your mind?


Something just occured to me. Lets say they did.
What would it accomplish?
They don't have enough personnel to enforce anything.
They won't be able to put the entire United States in camps.

So what would be the point of even trying?
So what would be the point of turning on us?

There wouldn't be one.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

Not true. You can buy all you want, and I don't care when they were manufactured. You want a Browning .50 belt fed machine gun? You got the money, they got the guns.

I'm talking federal. States may vary, but we've been allowed to purchase full auto weapons all along. Legally.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 05:51 PM
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This is an extremly interesting thread, and I take the OP's point fully.

What I find intruiging is the people saying 'Soldiers won't fight against their own people, because of their morals/personal judgement/whatever.'. These are the same people that agree that solideris are trained to follow orders.

Anyone notice the problem?

If we believe that soldiers follow orders, then we must believe that they would follow their superiors orders and turn on their fellow countrymen.

If we beleive that soldiers have a moral or otherwise stance that means they wouldn;t follow orders they judge to be 'illegal' or against their personal code, then, of course these brave men and women wouldn;t fire upon their fellow citizens.

The problem is that, if soldiers just picked and chose what orders they followed based on morals or sense of justice or what they view as right or legal, then they'd be pretty ineffective soldiers.

Therefore, I can fully imagine soldiers turning on their brothers and sisters, because thats what they are trained to do, to follow orders. Yes, we've heard from people saying they know soldiers that say they wouldn;t, but they don;t speak for them all, for every soldier who will fully follow his duties when in foreign countries, but then flips on his 'moral center' when dealing with his own countrymen, there are many others saying 'Yes Sir, No Sir, Three bags full Sir' and will happily comply and blow them away whislt on their way to control the rest of the populace.

Prehaps a cynical, but entirely possible idea...

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that this is not meant to offend, simply an idea, and not one I throw myself behind. I also did not intend to make any such sweeping statements as 'soliders have no moral compass' or anything like that, merely that it can be observed that they will follow orders, that could prehaps be of lower moral standards, and yet apparnelty they would hold themseleves to higher ideals at home. Ahain, apolgises, I didn;t mean to offend...

[edit on 26-12-2008 by Vector J]



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


not to rehash the civil war but you have heard of shermans march to the sea havnt you?

that was brutality and it was random and carried out against civilians.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by Vector J
 


There are a proverbial $*itload of orders that soldiers will not follow. Don't think that just because orders come down the line that they are carved in stone and originated on the mountain.

I went round and round with my officers on stupid orders alone. I can tell you what happens. If you get orders to do something that will get you killed foolishly, you'll not do it.

If you get orders to do something that may get you killed, but everyone is doing what they can to minimize deaths to the soldiers, then they'll do it.

If they tell you to throw down on civilians, you may have one or two who would, but trust me, they won't make a habit of it.

Either the officers get fragged, or the shooters themselves are shot. Normal soldiers prefer the known. They have a moral center. There are lines that they as a group will not cross.

In any population, there will be a few, just like on a typical Bell Curve, that are outside the norm. Fortunately, they normally don't last long, once they begin to actually operate outside the norm.

I'm not concerned at all that our soldiers will just throw down on their countrymen. And if I were a soldier, I'd be some kind of pissed that anyone would suggest such a thing.

As far as Kent State - UNTRAINED young men, who were having $#it thrown at them, lots of yelling, and a few either got pissed or scared. They never were shown how to face an angry crowd.

Each man, even in crowd, can feel mighty alone. If no one would have been yelling and throwing things, this would have never happened.

It is always unfortunate that those who instigated these events never seem to get shot. Just bystanders.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:05 PM
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Nazi Germany.

Whilst Germany itself wasn't "attacked" you can bet that anyone found trying to subvert Die Fuhrers rule would be executed immediately as a traitor.

German vs. German.

Don't believe it can't or won't happen. It was happening as recently as the 1940s.

EDIT TO ADD: Don't forget how Hitler came to power, either - during the run up to a depression, when the people were looking for a change. Hitlet fitted the bill. The rest is history.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 26-12-2008 by mirageofdeceit]



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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I guess this has turned into a large if soldiers will shoot citizens. I was not talking about this, I should have been more clearer. I meant, if a list came from the top to round up citizens, and these people are labeled as terrorists. But, it's really Mary the florist and Joe the garbageman. You can be sure the soldiers will round these people up and will not be nice about it.

Not even that, what about when they are in these holding areas, just look at the said experiment in the OP. Regular people will turn into hell raisers.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


My apologies if I offended you, that was not my intent. I was aiming to present an idea that I'd had, and one that on further reflection I tend not to fully agree with...





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