Think the army won't turn on it's citizens?

Army grunts are citizens too, so what are you proposing, that they would kill themselves?

I don't get it.

soldiers are trained to obey orders without question.they spend years pounding that into their heads.not to mention that they will be pumped full of propaganda about the rebels they are about to kill

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23

No worries Your Third Wave reminded me of another informal experiment conducted by Jane Elliot, a school teacher that segregated her class by telling the blue-eyed kids they were better than the brown-eyed kids. You can imagine how things changed in that class. You can spend $300 to see the film footage on Jane's site or you can watch it here instead.

On first sight, this may look off-topic. I'm posting it and drawing attention to how very possible it can be for humans to behave deplorably when guided by people in authority. I don't need to give a single example because we know them.

As I said earlier, I don't think the Army will turn on it's citizens. I don't see the conditions needed for that to happen. I do agree that the concept is completely possible due to human instincts to comply with authority and act before we think. Anyone reading this is thinking, "Man, that's true. Goddamn 'sheeple' do as they're told!" The results of these studies show the majority comply. That means you can't rule yourself out of pressing the metaphorical button and electrocuting a man when a man in a unifor or lab coat tells you to. Scary

If the grunts are told stories of "rebels" capturing and torturing soldiers (complete with graphic detail) along with how it was their duty to their fellow soldiers and country to defeat these evil forces of anarchy then they will comply (especially if given the chip and fed a low dose of drugs in their diet to make them more compliant to authority).

Look at recent events. Police beating up a 12 yo girl, people being tasered to death, soldiers raping and killing their own.

It is all become surreal, like a giant video game.

I worked for fifteen years with a State Dept of Corrections, I've seen what authority will make you become and I've seen what people are capable of doing to each other. I've cleaned up a guys brains one time, his head smashed in and over what, a hamburger.

Again, look at history. It is the most vital tool to predict future actions. We repeat it over and over.

Thanks to the OP for posing an absolutely fascinating question; a question I believe will become infinitely relevant very soon.

Some behavioural scientists and psychologists have theorised that, for the greater portion of human beings, what we define as "morals" and "ethics" are merely learned inhibitions based around fear of consequence. We learn from a very early age that there are personal consequences for certain behaviours. These consequences can be physical or social, ranging from something as simple as a mother's slap through to capital punishment, from a "cold shoulder" through to social ostracism. And due to our instinctive need for positive social interaction, punishments which deprive us of such can be much more terrifying than physical punishment - most prisoners fear prolonged solitary confinement more than anything else. So the theory is that our morals are not present at birth or programmed by a higher power, rather they are a learned survival mechanism.

Now the theory goes further to posit that if you remove those consequences, or the fear of them, then the "morals" of most people very quickly evaporate. H.G.Wells' classic novel The Invisible Man is a treatise on this facet of humanity. The main character, a law-abiding and ethical man, becomes murderously, megalomaniacally insane when the fear of consequence for his actions is removed. The sudden release from consequence makes him feel as if he is a god.

Taking that philosophy one step further, when what are normally considered immoral actions are not just free of consequence, but are rewarded and encouraged, then the entire system of human morality we take for granted can be easily and completely turned on its head. As clichéd as the reference is, few are more obvious and relevant as Nazi Germany. Heinous acts were rewarded socially with praise, power, and status, while those who spoke out against the party and its actions were ostracised and denigrated. Once this system of social punishment and reward became pervasive throughout society, the herd herded itself - most stayed silent, while the weak-willed became monsters, and we all know the end results.

So in answer to the question posed in the original post, I believe that the potential is in most human beings to turn on their own; to imprison, to beat, to torture, maim, and kill. All it takes is the removal of social consequence for those actions, the rewarding of those actions, and the silence of opposition again through social consequence. Nazi Germany wasn't an anomaly, it was an inevitability, and the right circumstances could bring something similar about in any nation in the world.





[edit on 2008-12-26 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by Tinman67
Look at recent events. Police beating up a 12 yo girl, people being tasered to death, soldiers raping and killing their own.

Yeah, because stuff like this has never gone on at all in human history!

It's the end times, I swear it! 2012 is coming. THE APOCALYPSE IS COMING.

reply to post by ProudWN


I tried to use the recent events to push home my earlier historical events mention. There are a lot of folks that can't make the leap into the frame of thought that the kid next door could be your executioner.

This was one of the hurdles that took the Jews to the Ghetto's, then to the trains and finally to the showers. If more had seen that the little boy next door could and would put a bullet into the back of their heads, willingly, they might of had the chance to stand up and say "NO!" or at least die fighting every inch of the way.

im with you tinman,its not if it can happen but when

Interesting thread I read about those case studies in Sociology... very disturbing as to how they became so absorbed into their "prisoner" and "guard" roles. It makes for a very compelling argument that our army would turn against civilians if ordered to. There would probably be that one or two soldiers who would refuse to, but I think for the most part civilians would be in trouble in that kind of scenario.

Soldiers are trained to obey orders however they have the moral imperative to not obey illegal orders.

Look at it this way.

Let's assume all soldiers would obey illegal orders and would turn on citizens. The reality is that self preservation would keep them from doing anything.

How many soldiers could be in the United States at once. Well, there are a total of 1.5 million US soldiers world wide so first they and all their equipment would need to be sent home which would take months and of course nobody would make one mistake and say a thing about what was going on.

Now lets say every US soldier in the world is now home and is ready to turn on it's citizens.

There are 320 million US citizens and only 1.5 million soldiers. Does anyone see a ratio problem with this?

Can 1.5 million soldiers control a population of 320 million? NOPE!

Originally posted by jstatz
soldiers are trained to obey orders without question.they spend years pounding that into their heads.not to mention that they will be pumped full of propaganda about the rebels they are about to kill

truth.

When it gets down to it they will be shooting who they think are "bad guys" not just normal civilians.

reply to post by jhill76


How many people just walk on by a homeless man / woman begging on the streets?

They justify their actions by saying to themselve, "their lazy, they don't work, they deserve the situation they are in". They don't question they just walk on by and go about their duties.

People for the most part justify their lack of mercy in order to make themselves believe they are "good and decent".

Most of us don't want to realize that what affects one of us affects all of us. Once a person admits to this realization then if they want to continue to believe they are "good and decent" they must take responsiblity.

We are all our brother's keepers. (and I'm not even Christian and I live by this code).

Our society will pay "singers" and "actors" tens of millions of dollars to get up in a sexy outfit and "perform" and yet the person who waits on your table and cooks your food and dry cleans your clothes doesn't make enough to support a poverty life style.

But we condon this and say "it's okay" "so what".

50 million American's (mostly women and children) have no health insurance and yet our Congress and Senate have free medical care for their entire life as do their wives that never had to work.

But we condon this and say "it okay" "so what".

This is what scares me. Here in America it is "every man for himself and to hell with everyone else" not realizing that "United we stand and divided we fall".

I see people every day that chuck true ethics in lieu of "getting ahead" or simply what they see as "their own survival".

We are all being pitted against each other and don't see the big picture of who is doing the pitting.

Yes I could see the possiblity of a young soldier from Kansas pointing a gun at me and herding me into a railway car and I am scared.

I no longer trust our government nor it's military nor most of my fellow American's who have sold their soul for the sake of "security and profit" with no regard to questioning what is really going on.

People in the military are taught (like in my office) when you are told to jump you are only to ask "how high".

I have lived on this ball of dirt for over half a century and with each year people seem to question authority less and less, like compliant sheep believing that if they help usher the cattle into the slaughter truck they have insured their own safety.

I was particularly disturbed by seeing men and women soldiers smilling, enjoying the torturing and humiliation of Iraq POW's.

VERY DISTURBED.

These soldiers proved that if given half a chance many humans will cheerfully give in to their dark side.

The Bush Administration promoted torture - my own government.

What you have said is possible and I live each day now with eyes wide open and no longer trust my government nor it's military.

All these patriotic "our troops god bless they protect us". No, if given the order they would torture and slaughter us for the limits of conduct have been erased. Time will tell with this new incoming administration one can only hope that some moral ethics return but I am unsure. The line of moral ethics has been crossed / erased and once that line has been erased it is hard to draw it up again.

Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. If we continue to develop our technology without wisdom or prudence, our servant may prove to be our executioner. --General Omar Bradley

He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke

“The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” Albert Einstein



[edit on 26-12-2008 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by alyosha1981


I read the OP several times and can find no referrence to soldiers shooting civilians as you state. Then I read more posts and they start talking about KILLING. I saw nothing in the OP about this either. All I saw was how quickly people corrupt the message.

however what we are talking about here(soldiers shooting civillians)

Please show me where the OP is talking about soldiers shooting civillians.

Oh, did the Davidians in Waco actually attack anyone? I don't recall them attacking, yet the DEA (I believe) burned down their residence.

And here is a link to a video showing that the military WILL gas and kill civilians that are not even attacking them.
videos.howstuffworks.com...


[edit on 26-12-2008 by Muundoggie]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by Muundoggie]

reply to post by jstatz
Yes you are correct.

Did that excuse what the nazi soldiers did to the millions of victims of the Holocost?

People are suppose to be a THINKING animal.

If someone told you to jump over a cliff would you?

Not questioning authority when that authority is wrong or evil or issuing orders you know are wrong makes the person who carries out those orders just as guilty.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by jstatz

 

Yes you are correct.
Not questioning authority when that authority is wrong or evil or issuing orders you know are wrong makes the person who carries out those orders just as guilty.

Excellent point.
If there were more people such as yourself, there'd be a lot less misery in the world.

We all need to stand up and say, "Never Again".

Originally posted by Muundoggie
reply to post by alyosha1981

 

Oh, did the Davidians in Waco actually attack anyone? I don't recall them attacking, yet the DEA (I believe) burned down their residence.

OK I'm so tired of people making the Davidians out to be nice people. Here's some reality of what happened.

on February 28, 1993 when the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to execute a search warrant at the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel. An exchange of gunfire resulted in the deaths of four agents and six Davidians.

OK so when ATF agents tried to execute a search warrant, THEY WERE SHOT AT !!!
How long did the stand off last? 51 days
WHY? If the Davidians weren't shooting at agents, how did the standoff last 51 days?

Now I'm not saying mistakes were made that resulted in needless deaths, but the Davidians shot first.

Why were the ATF there?

In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the ATF notifying that his office had been contacted by the local United Parcel Service regarding a driver seeing a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing that it contained firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder.

INERT GRENADE CASINGS ! Were they going to use them for bookmarks???

Subsequent investigations, including sending in one agent undercover, revealed that there were over 150 weapons and 8,000 rounds of ammunition in the compound. Most of the weapons were legal semi-automatics; however, the ATF alleged there were also a number of firearms that had been illegally modified to fire full-automatic

It's very easy to modify a semi to an auto so this is very reasonable.
Why would a church need all these weapons?

What about the Civil War? Americans killing Americans.

This has always stood as proof to me of the efficacy of propoganda. With enough propoganda, you can get almost anyone to kill almost anyone.

reply to post by jhill76


Sad and pathetic you are for once again adding your voice to the America/Military haters on this site.

The "Military" will not turn on the citizens, PEOPLE will.

reply to post by kattraxx


Keep in mind both sides were uniformed soldiers. In effect, 2 countries fighting to become one under one set of rules.

Big difference between the civil war and soldiers shooting innocent men, women and children CAUSE SOMEONE SAID SO .