American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

It makes me sad to see people who totally miss the whole point of America. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". Those three core elements are far more timeless than whatever God the majority are praying to this era.

The men that started this country were escaping the religion of the old world, among other things. That is why they gave us the choice to believe what we want.

Disdain for what you don't know is the basis for ignorance. You shame ATS with your assertion that America ever belonged to one group of people. It's this "our team is the best" mentality that is holding us back. Open your mind and your heart OT. You think the Bible is great, you should check out the Mahabharata. Nearly 90,000 verses dating as far back as the 9th Century BC.

the bible is interpretable... It has been used to persecute and kill throughout history.
Therefore the bible can be used as a way to subvert freedom.

Why do you think folks stand on the roads with signs that say BURN faggots -
did not god himself create these faggots???

Or the last incarnation- folks used to carry Kill N$#@$#@s

If you guys want to believe thats fine, but not on my dime and not at the cost of my country men.

Originally posted by davion

Sherman said something like it was a private press conference with other people from the press and "he was the only one that decided to come forward with what Bush senior said" so it's kinda suspicious.

In that same vein I believe Bush senior has been approached about that interview fake or not and has never denied it. So it could be either or.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by davion]

True, he is the only source for this. But it really wouldn't be that hard to believe. The Bush family is openly evangelical and admits their selection of "faith-based strategies" in politics.

Originally posted by davion

Do you want a tissue or something?

Davion, I think you have missed the point of their argument entirely. Every time a Christian turns on the TV or watches a movie his religion is mocked in his face. The majority is Christian but continuously insulted by the elitists in the MSM and so-called intellectual groups, and hounded by the ACLU.

Don't you find it a bit... awkward...that the vast majority of Americans is trashed continuously like this? It's a very visible conspiracy. Oppression is the wrong word for it, but to deny they are the target of a multilateral, multi-fronted, organized cultural assault is like denying a 300 lb gorilla in the room.

And before you attack me please keep in mind I am part of the non-religious category.

Wow...just got back to quickly view the posts...a tad bit of emotion for sure. I should have some time Sat morning to respond to each of you, supporters and skeptics alike.

I am reminded of an old gruff plant manager I used to work for who's famous saying was, "it is what it is!" These founding fathers said what they say, there is no denying it...we all have to acknowledge it, like it or not!

See ya'll in the AM

OT

There is no Christ because ther is no oz. if you can prove that there is then do it. it is an old myth that needs to die. Then, and only the can we finaly move on.

ooopps...sorry double post.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by OldThinker]

"America was a Christian nation - what happened?"

Murder the natives and steal their land - VERY Christian!

Funnily enough it might have something to do with the EVOLUTION.......of human understanding! Religion was originally used as a way to explain the many things that were beyond the comprehension of man. As time has passed and scientists have discovered so much about so many different things, it has become more difficult for many people to believe in the religious explanations for these things. Having been presented with so much evidence to the contrary, people are now able to use progressive logical thought, seeing for themselves that what they have been told is in fact highly unlikely!

Religion has also been corrupted through the centuries by those in control and used as a tool to manipulate. This practice continues to this day, as can be evidenced by the groundswell of support for the so-called 'War on terror' by the religious right in America, manipulated by your predominately Christian media & Christian president. Many people can see this kind of thing happening constantly and are rather sick of it.

Another reason may be that religions are full of contradiction, making it harder to take seriously. How can Christians support the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when they believe that murder is a sin? I understand the anger post 9/11, but is the killing of another human being in any circumstance other than self-defence not murder? Do they themselves not believe the gospel of Matthew, in which he quotes Jesus as saying "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" - what happened to forgiveness? Your Christian president tells you that Bin Laden will be hunted down and punished (executed). If innocent people must die in order to make that happen, how does that correllate with the teachings of Christ? Many people see these contradictions and wish to distance themselves from those who foster hate in the name of a deity who preached love.

Some also feel that Christians are extremely arrogant and patronising, which an awful lot of them are. Why should those who do not believe be forced to endure overt displays of religiousness in the media, on the street or even on their own doorsteps? I have never heard of any athiest going door to door trying to convince people that there ISN'T a God! Sure, you get people like Richard Dawkins et al occasionally on TV or in movies, but they are seriously a minority. How many dedicated TV channels are there telling you they need you to send them your money to help spread the word that there is no God?

Look, I am not against people having faith, be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or whatever. If that's what you want to believe, great, fine by me, but that should not give you the right to shove it down my throat. I believe that people should have the right to display whatever religious iconography they wish within their own home, and to go to church and worship if they choose. However, there should be a complete ban on any form of public advertising of any theology, even of their so-called 'charitable organisations', many of which use the provision of missionary aid as a front for conversion programmes. Every country on Earth should do this, and have only moral guidelines issued by governments - the things we already know...

Harming another human being in any way is not acceptable.
Theft is wrong.
Show respect to others.
Be truthful.
Respect your environment.

etc.

OldThinker, I'd count you amongst those arrogant and patronising Christians I mentioned. When presented with a valid argument you just shrug it off with an air of arrogant superiority. Talking about yourself in the 3rd person also makes you come across as a bit of a self-obsessed douche. No offence intended, but I'm afraid it does.






[edit on 27/12/08 by sotp]

Originally posted by spaznational

Davion, I think you have missed the point of their argument entirely. Every time a Christian turns on the TV or watches a movie his religion is mocked in his face. The majority is Christian but continuously insulted by the elitists in the MSM and so-called intellectual groups, and hounded by the ACLU.

Don't you find it a bit... awkward...that the vast majority of Americans is trashed continuously like this? It's a very visible conspiracy. Oppression is the wrong word for it, but to deny they are the target of a multilateral, multi-fronted, organized cultural assault is like denying a 300 lb gorilla in the room.

And before you attack me please keep in mind I am part of the non-religious category.

Movies & documentaries that mock religion is a RECENT phenomena. Atheism & Agnosticism was unheard of in this country until about a decade or two ago. It is happening now because people are tired of Christian propaganda everywhere they go.

There was once a time when heretics were burned at the stake. Thankfully, the "heretics" now have the freedom to voice their opinions.

And the country still is a "Christian nation". You just had a faith-based Bush administration for eight years. I don't know what the fuss is about.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Happy christmas OT hope your well.

moocowman

Great to hear from you...how are the kids....you are a great dad as I remember!!!

Yes, I am well....family too....thank you for asking....whew...the response to the quotes from America's founders has been dicy, to say the least....OT didn't edit them, but I am being attacked royally


Just got in from a night with some of my boys from an auto co. I used to work at...sleepy for sure....I will hit it hard tomorrow...!!!!


And for you 'Dr. Laura's' out there...you don't know me...from ADAM....sorry a religious pun there/ so your assumptions are juvenile at best and lazy to say the least....I LOOK FORWARD TO THE SURGERY ON YOUR POSTS,...

[edit on 27-12-2008 by OldThinker]

[edit on 27-12-2008 by OldThinker]

One last thing....


Any C2C (Coast to Coast AM ) listeners out there?????


Check out tonights....Ean Pundent's interview about The Chronicles of Narnia, OXford Professor CS Lewis' 'Ephipany' (sp?)

It will help you along the Jesus journey that so many founding fathers knew.....


Your denials are empty folks....

Lol America is a paegan state.

Originally posted by George Patton
New here and thought I'd jump in. I have to say that I recommend that the religious posters be a little careful when they use the words of the founding fathers as evidence for the Christian nation myth.

I believe it was George Washington who said something like this, "American is in no way founded on a christian nation."

I think you are referring to the Treaty of Tripoli. It was penned by diplomat Joel Barlow, and signed by John Adams in 1761.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary

Originally posted by Malynn
The founding father's were Deists. They believed in God but also believed that he had absolutely no involvement in our lives. I'd be interested in how many times you find reference to Jesus in the Charters of Freedom.

And I'm all for the de-christianization of America. BRING IT ON. No cult has done more damage to our nation...hell to the WORLD than Christians.

Yes, some who Deists....not all.

Did you know that those very wealthy men who signed the Dec of Independence...remember them? 52 out of the 55 were regular church attenders....yes they were wise good men....and today YOU benefit from their leadership....

So I would be less cocky about ridding the world of Christians...really.

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Malynn
The founding father's were Deists. They believed in God but also believed that he had absolutely no involvement in our lives. I'd be interested in how many times you find reference to Jesus in the Charters of Freedom.

And I'm all for the de-christianization of America. BRING IT ON. No cult has done more damage to our nation...hell to the WORLD than Christians.

the problem with religion is not that someone believes in it. the problem is when others are forced, to believe in/or live by, religious rules.

jimmyX, great point....that's the reason America was primarily started...FREEDOM of Relgion....and for atheists frredom FROM....


These wise founding father STRUCTURED the set-up/government that way for a purpose...Executive Judicial and Congressional DIDN'T HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT

Thanks for your point!

Originally posted by RFBurns
America was/is not a Christian nation nor was it founded on the Christian belief system. America is a diverse nation, from start to now, will continue to be a diverse nation, no matter which particular religous belief has x number followers.

[edit on 26-12-2008 by RFBurns]

Mom's gonna tell you to clean out the sand from your ears when you pull your head out....or you can just continue to IGNORE all those quotes....and enjoy the benefit from thier wisdom....man you got it good!!!

Originally posted by Solarskye
America was a nation of Religion but not just a Christian nation. Our founding fathers put freedom of religion in our Bill of Rights for a reason and that was so that not one religion would rule and that an individual could choose or not choose a religion. Christians wanted God in the political system like it was in Rome or Greece and other countries. It was a bad idea and suppressed freedom of speech, freedom to be an individual, freedom to choose and freedom to find the truth. Our fore fathers knew that religion had it's good but also it's bad and the separation of church and state was the answer. It didn't matter if you were atheist or Christian, you still had an opportunity to run for an office. America was built for freedom and to have true freedom Christianity and all religions were excluded from the possibility of ruling in our government. We the people of all denominations are therefor encouraged to vote, run for state and federal offices or to be a citizen of this country without being harassed on whether we believe in a God or not. So no! America was not a Christian nation but a nation that was free to worship your God or to not worship a god.

Once again...the system was set-up that way by some wise ole guys...who were for the majority God-fearing....

I AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!

About freedom of

Freedom from

who can run for office etc

YOUR WAS A GOOD POST....


I am saying don't forget who got us here....don't throw the Baby out with the bath water....

reply to post by Byrd



Bryd,

My point is a lot of good men sacrificed a whole heck of a lot to help get us where we are today...and as a reminder many of these men were followers of God...

No conversion talk...

No buts, mistakes were made in every nation

Sure some christian leaders today do things that are less than admirable, but that's somewhat off topic.

Also thanks for clearing up the pledge with that one young poster.

Happy New Year....you are becoming a regular on OT's thread

Originally posted by 27jd
It sure is annoying when OT refers to himfanaticalself in the 3rd person.

I am an American, and agree with the many intelligent folks on this site who believe we are all free to believe what we wish individually. However, you christians are pretty difficult to cohabitate with. Personally, i feel most of you are judgemental, nosey, hypocritical, and usually just plain rude. If you truly had faith in your version of god, you would be comfortable with others who believe differently, but you don't and you try and drown out your own doubts by focusing your attention on everybody else being evil. Get over it, and butt out.

fanatical? How..please elaborate!

Believe as you willl I AGREE, too

The co-habitate line is silly...

Never said you were EVIL????? Although your avatar is close

Originally posted by andy1033
America was built on people running away from the church who where pagens, but pretended to be christians.

Your country was never a christian nation, and never will be.

Wow, that cleared it up!!!