American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

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posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42
Ok, after all your "evidence" can you just help me out on this one little thing? How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is? Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God? Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?

Did you ever answer my questions on p.15, I couldn't find a response? It was not meant to be rhetorical, I really would like to know what you think about these things.




posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by cancerian42
 


The person who wrote that article is a persuasive writer. She puts a certain spin on the issue of crime and violence and tells us that America has more crime and violence because we are more religious than England. But what she is really doing is comparing two different countries where there are many differences such as culture, population, government, ehtnicity and so on. She takes one difference being religiousness of the citizens and assumes that this must be the reason. However I questin these facts because I am aware that in the last decade the religiousness of England is growing with The Church of England. It is a biased article poorly written, any one with an English degree and who has themselves studied persuasive writting can see right through it. You should have cited a better article and a less biased study. A study whose aim from the get go was not to discredit religion would have been better if there is such a one. This is an industry and Ruth Geldhill is profiting off of it as a so called Religion Corespondant. What does that mean? That she knows more about religion than everyone else? No she doesn't. Like I said, there is a difference between knowing about someone and actually knowing them. And I really doubt if Ruth really knows that much about religion. She is just in it for the money. She got paid to write that article to keep the fire burning, and somewhere someone will write an article refuting it and get paid, and then someone else will write a book about religion and crime, probably Ruth herself and she will get paid and on and on. Its like wrestle mania, and in this corner!

Don't the sentences in bold totally discredit your "statistics" on the increase of crime related to the decrease in christianity? What you are really doing is comparing two different times where there are many differences such as culture, population, government, ethnicity and so on. You take one difference being religiousness of the citizens and assume that this must be the reason. Just showing you the contradictoriness of these two things you are trying to prove.


many have reviewed and discredited it...but you are free to believe its emptiness...just life a decade or more longer and you'll come to the right conclusion...

Ok, I'll give you that, it isn't a fact that crime and religion are related.



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 



Hey I just got on line, been doing all the correspondence from my treo...

Thank you,personally, for the well-thought-through response....

pls let me re-read your post and I'll get back with you..ok

OT


PS: thank you SO much for responding!



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42


Don't the sentences in bold totally discredit your "statistics" on the increase of crime related to the decrease in christianity?


OK, how would that be...pls support your claim...

OT



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42

Did you ever answer my questions on p.15, I couldn't find a response? It was not meant to be rhetorical, I really would like to know what you think about these things.

ok, i'm sorry i missed it, what was the question?

ot



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

On June 25, 1962, the Supreme Court first struck down school prayer by prohibiting students from using this simple invocation:



As a statitician I cannot ignore the cause and effect relationship here...see here for the graphs, data andeffect of the above external source...

www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com...


How bout SAT scores, single family homes, STD's, etc etc etc...


My secular-progressives may we please have a civilized discussion on this...or will you continue to ignore....I know its overwhelming huh?

How is this source less biased than the one I used? Your statistics have no credibility. Just because there is separation of church and state, doesn't mean the enforcement of it leads to any of the things you claim it does. You cannot say religion or lack thereof is the cause of lower SAT scores, single family homes, and STD's. It cannot be proven.



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 

These (for the third time) are my questions:
"Ok, after all your "evidence" can you just help me out on this one little thing? How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is? Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God? Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?"



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 

If a person REALLY wants the Truth, he/she will not be misled.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


People all over the world with BARELY a Bible to be found have asked God in sincerity and found Jeshua.
One woman was at Mecca, (shut out from the men, of course) when she gave her life to God and found Jeshua without previous knowledge of Him.

God has PROVEN Himself to me to the point that I can't deny Him.
Trickery only works when one has their life view covered with the flesh.



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by Clearskies
 

This is no proof. And just so you know I dedicate my life to the truth and that is all.



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 11:39 PM
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Sorry, been busy over the last few days...

So I'm back now to make what are probably my last few points, because I believe this argument is getting a bit old. Whether those who founded the U.S were or were not Christians, the constitution has always kept religion and the state seperate, has it not? So regardless of any Christian morals of the founding fathers, the United States of America have always been non-denominational. Can't there be an agreement on that?

OT, while you maybe haven't been quoting as much of the bible of late, the sources you are quoting do seem ever-so-slighty biased, making it hard for us non-believers to take them seriously. For example, one of your recent sources regarding the differences between England & the U.S states...

"However I questin these facts because I am aware that in the last decade the religiousness of England is growing with The Church of England."

Not only biased, but utter twaddle. Attendances at churches here in the U.K have been falling for years, especially in the C.O.E where many churches are in fact closing their doors, as dwindling numbers mean they can't afford to stay open. By a strange coincidence, I was just watching a TV programme tonight that stated that only 7% of those in who believe in God here actually get off their backsides to go to a church!


As for the whole getting religion out of schools thing, take it from me that is not a bad thing. In a country like the U.S, where there are children of many different faiths attending the same schools, focusing on Christianity must make those children of other faiths feel ostracised. Why should they be made to feel that way? Imagine for a moment that one day Hinduism becomes the majority faith in America and your children are made to listen to Hindu prayers every day in school? How would they feel? Wouldn't it be a better idea to try and eradicate things that cause division from schools?
For example, I was brought up in the West coast of Scotland, where in the past there had been a large influx of Irish immigrants (just like the U.S). As a result there are seperate schools for Catholic and 'Non-denominational' (i.e mostly Protestant) children, and all that has done is make the children focus on being different. As a result there is a culture of sectarian violence (which I personally have been a victim of) beginning in schools and continuing into adulthood, with murder on too many occasions being the result. Although things have gotten better over the years, there's still a lot of trouble (especially after a Celtic vs. Rangers game). I believe if there had been a seperation of religion from schools, and the children of all faiths integrated, we'd likely not have this problem. There is no real need for children to be taught religion in school anyway. All children should learn in school is maths/languages/sciences etc. and if parents wish their children to be religious then they should teach them themselves or take them to church.

On the seperation of church from state, is there really any point in having someone swear on a bible in court? It won't stop criminals lying to save their own asses! Especially if they aren't Christian...



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by cancerian42
Ok, after all your "evidence" can you just help me out on this one little thing? How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is? Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God? Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?

Did you ever answer my questions on p.15, I couldn't find a response? It was not meant to be rhetorical, I really would like to know what you think about these things.



How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is?
----After researching both the old and new testament and seeing firsthand the love of God displayed in other people. I talk to the Lord Jesus just like He is in the room with me. I believe… Ever smile, every laugh, every victory…comes from above. (from Him)
You know that feeling of relaxation you get just before going to sleep after a great day? A day full of successes…a day that the world, at least around you, recognized your ability?
That comes from above…
Or that joy you feel with your kids running and laughing in the yard, playing in the sprinkler? Or that business deal that just came through? Or that beautiful purple and orange sunset last night?
Or the hype felt after scoring the winning goal or touchdown? Or that majestic mountain range you looked over in the past?
That comes from above… About 2000 years ago, a colleague of Jesus named James said,
“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” You, too. can know HIM… he is more than a force.


Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God?
------When you speak of Satan, what is your reference point? Where did you learn of him? Where did the concept come from? Do you refer to him as Lucifer, the fallen angel? If the old testament and new test. are reliable sources of Satan, certainly they are sources for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, right?


Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity.
-------No I’m not a pantheist…HE is very very real to me... Healed my son, from a serious kidney disease...
Gave me a beautiful bride for 24 yrs... Gave me 3 great girls...
I can feel today, the feeling I felt when He saved me...saved, that's a religious word I know...sorry.
He is my best friend....He speaks to me through the Bible and within from His Spirit... being SAVED is not an ‘active’ thing on my part….I have nothing to brag about….it is a ‘passive’ term…where He reached down and forgave me.



Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God?

--------Certainly I could miss something…but logically its not a stretch that an all-powerful God, who wants to convey a message, could preserve it?



Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways?
------BC/AD…this would take too long….I don’t have enough faith to believe it was made up.



Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?
????? Got to run to work….let me think on this one, ok?



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by sotp
....So regardless of any Christian morals of the founding fathers, the United States of America have always been non-denominational. Can't there be an agreement on that?

Absolutely!

OT, while you maybe haven't been quoting as much of the bible of late, the sources you are quoting do seem ever-so-slighty biased, making it hard for us non-believers to take them seriously. For example, one of your recent sources regarding the differences between England & the U.S states...


The data speaks for itself...numbers are numbers...the debate is the cause-effect relationship. A biased sample is one in which some members of the population are more likely to be included than others.
Spectrum bias refers to evaluating the ability of a diagnostic test in a biased group of patients which leads to an overestimation of the sensitivity and specificity of the test.
The bias of an estimator is the difference between an estimator's expectation and the true value of the parameter being estimated.
Omitted-variable bias is the bias that appears in estimates of parameters in a regression analysis when the assumed specification is incorrect, in that it omits an independent variable that should be in the model.
In statistical hypothesis testing, a test is said to be unbiased when the probability of rejecting the null hypothesis exceeds the significance level when the alternative is true and is less than or equal to the significance level when the null hypothesis is true.
Systematic bias or systemic bias are external influences that may affect the accuracy of statistical measurements.
Data-snooping bias comes from the misuse of data mining techniques

number are numbers in the study...no bias (technically) bro




However I questin these facts because I am aware that in the last decade the religiousness of England is growing with The Church of England

I guess we are all a product of our own environment...



btw, I'm for a moment of silence today...I don't want to turn the clock back...

Thanks for contributing here...



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 


Found this quote...it kinda summarizes my thoughts...

Jedidiah Morse


To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."



Morse made an important impact on the educational system of the United States. While teaching at a school for young women, he saw the need for a geography textbook oriented to the forming nation. The result was skimpy and derivative, Geography Made Easy (1784). He followed that with American Geography (1789) which was widely cited and copied. New editions of his schoolchildren textbooks and the more weighty works, often came out yearly, earning him the informal title "father of American geography." His postponed gazetteer for his work of 1784 was bested by Joseph Scott's Gazetteer of the United States in 1795. However, with the aid of Noah Webster and Rev. Samuel Austin, Morse published his gazetteer in 1797, with his Universal Geography of the United States



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


I wasn't questioning the numbers so much as I was questioning the author...

"However I questin these facts" (sic)

In other words, the author has been presented with facts but won't accept them because they personally have a different viewpoint. Biased, no?

As for your other post about Jedediah Morse, haven't many of us already agreed that there has been a positive influence by many Christians in the U.S? However, you yourself agreed that America has always been a Non-denominational country, so why are you still flogging that poor dead horse?

Also, I apologise if I'm being ignorant here but why the moment of silence?



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by sotp
reply to post by OldThinker
 


I wasn't questioning the numbers so much as I was questioning the author...

"However I questin these facts" (sic)

In other words, the author has been presented with facts but won't accept them because they personally have a different viewpoint. Biased, no?

As for your other post about Jedediah Morse, haven't many of us already agreed that there has been a positive influence by many Christians in the U.S? However, you yourself agreed that America has always been a Non-denominational country, so why are you still flogging that poor dead horse?

Also, I apologise if I'm being ignorant here but why the moment of silence?



Hey man, no need to apologize...you having a good day?

aahhh, 'moment of silence'...I just a got vision of Maxwell Smart and the Chief...I digress, sorry!


I dunno, maybe its a neat compromise in my eyes...kids that pray, pray...kids that don't sleep?

Sorry for the cheezy answer...



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by sotp
As for your other post about Jedediah Morse, haven't many of us already agreed that there has been a positive influence by many Christians in the U.S?


Yeah...good point! Its just sorta a summary comment for cancerian42

That's all...

OT



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


It's all good my friend! Had to take the laptop I got my daughter for Christmas back to the shop as the screen had packed in. Got her a much better one, so she's well chuffed!

Sorry for not getting the Get Smart reference, but I've only ever seen the film with Steve Carrell...it was good fun...me like!

And let me just say my daughter (who doesn't pray and has only ever been in a church twice in her 16 years) has never had any trouble sleeping - quite the opposite in fact! She'd sleep through the apocalypse!




posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by sotp Had to take the laptop I got my daughter for Christmas....


'Christmas' huh?


Glad she got a new, good computer....and that you give good gifts that time of the year...

16 huh? boy, you have your hands full...



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by sotp

Sorry for not getting the Get Smart reference:




See: www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by cancerian42
Ok, after all your "evidence" can you just help me out on this one little thing? How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is? Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God? Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?

Did you ever answer my questions on p.15, I couldn't find a response? It was not meant to be rhetorical, I really would like to know what you think about these things.



How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is?
----After researching both the old and new testament and seeing firsthand the love of God displayed in other people. I talk to the Lord Jesus just like He is in the room with me. I believe… Ever smile, every laugh, every victory…comes from above. (from Him)
You know that feeling of relaxation you get just before going to sleep after a great day? A day full of successes…a day that the world, at least around you, recognized your ability?
That comes from above…
Or that joy you feel with your kids running and laughing in the yard, playing in the sprinkler? Or that business deal that just came through? Or that beautiful purple and orange sunset last night?
Or the hype felt after scoring the winning goal or touchdown? Or that majestic mountain range you looked over in the past?
That comes from above… About 2000 years ago, a colleague of Jesus named James said,
“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” You, too. can know HIM… he is more than a force.


Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God?
------When you speak of Satan, what is your reference point? Where did you learn of him? Where did the concept come from? Do you refer to him as Lucifer, the fallen angel? If the old testament and new test. are reliable sources of Satan, certainly they are sources for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, right?


Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some separate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity.
-------No I’m not a pantheist…HE is very very real to me... Healed my son, from a serious kidney disease...
Gave me a beautiful bride for 24 yrs... Gave me 3 great girls...
I can feel today, the feeling I felt when He saved me...saved, that's a religious word I know...sorry.
He is my best friend....He speaks to me through the Bible and within from His Spirit... being SAVED is not an ‘active’ thing on my part….I have nothing to brag about….it is a ‘passive’ term…where He reached down and forgave me.



Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God?

--------Certainly I could miss something…but logically its not a stretch that an all-powerful God, who wants to convey a message, could preserve it?



Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways?
------BC/AD…this would take too long….I don’t have enough faith to believe it was made up.



Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissful ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?
????? Got to run to work….let me think on this one, ok?



cancerian42,

Any thoughts/responses on my answers?

Again sorry for missing them earlier...

OT





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