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American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by RFBurns
...but it is definatley NOT a nation founded upon only the Christian doctrine.


or.....?

Patrick Henry who said....“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions.....but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”


RFBurns....or...Patrick Henry?


OT going with the ole'dude!!!!!


RFBurns, questions...why do you DENY this? Some one piss you off???



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
or.....?

Patrick Henry who said....“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions.....but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”


RFBurns....or...Patrick Henry?


OT going with the ole'dude!!!!!


RFBurns, questions...why do you DENY this? Some one piss you off???


I question anyone's attempt, and any religion, that is trying to force their beliefs onto me when I can find the evidence for myself. Since I do not practice any religious belief except my own, its very easy to see the entire history, quite clearly and un-biased.

I simply go by the facts, and by more than just 1 ole'dudes who had far more of a role in fouding the nation than a professional speech writter, which those facts can be found at the following:

Nation Master Encyclopedia President Religion Affiliation

Quartz Hill School of Theology

Religious Affiliations of US Presidents Wikipedia

The Christian Nation Myth

Is America a Christian Nation?

US Not founded upon Christian beliefs

Little Known US Document-US Government is Secular

With this 'push'..or what I, and others refer to it as "Dominionism", an ongoing attempt by the Christian sect to make the country into something it was not in the begining, can be found HERE

American political system needs to seperate from Christian ideals

Christians attempting to re-write history through political means

An Interview with Jon Butler-Was America founded on Christian belief?

Diversity of Beliefs IS American Way

No mention of Christian or other religion in US Constitution

Read Our Founding Documents

Founding Documents

Primary Documents in American History

America as a Religious Refuge-Parts 1 & 2

Founding Fathers and Islam

Establishment Clause

Well with all this reference material, it is clear that in the early years of this nation's birth, religious beliefs were not interwoven into the workings of building the country. Although the people involved had their own deep religious beliefs, it was clear to every single one of them, that in order to build a true free nation, it had to be a nation that did not promote, enact any law or requirement, condone or condem the vast variety of religioius beliefs that were present during and after the drafting of the documents that this nation was founded upon.

It can be argued that these early leaders may have thought about, perhaps even refered to their bibles or clergymen for guidance, but that in no way declares that the country was founded on Christian beliefs. They saw that by building a nation intended to be a free nation, it could not have entangled any religious links or ties into the binding law and decleration of this nations independance and as a nation that is to be one of true freedom of religion.

No where in ANY of the founding documents, does it refer to ANY religious beilief, nor does ANY of the founding documents declare that the nation itself is based on ANY religious belief system.

However these founding documents do clearly show, and prove, that this nation was founded to be a nation of freedom of religion, to practice and worship as one sees fit for themselves, and even clearly shows that government does not have any right, or authority, to instill any religious belief onto the people, or attempt to integrate it into government law and any amendments.

The history also shows that early attempts to lean the choices made by the founding fathers was apparent, to sway them to pick one certian religious belief..Christianity. However, becasue of the wisdom of our founding fathers, who most of them were not Christian at all, overcame those early attempts to 'push' our free nation from a true freedom of religion society to a single religious belief. Obviously this failed and continues to do so.

So if anyone shows any signs of being "pissed off" at someone, it is clear that it is those who believe that they are like those early "pilgrims of plight" from the 1700's and think that in today's even more diverse America, that screaming and shouting and persuasion and bible thumping will win the day to declare that this country is not a diverse nation of religions and only a Christian nation. Will never happen. Ever.

My advice to them, is to simply practice what you preach. Love thy neighbor, do not pre-judge unless you be judged, let others believe what they will and you stay out of it, and put aside your attempt to shove your belief onto a nation that is founded upon "Certian Inalienable Rights".

I seriously doubt that anytime soon, the founding documents are going to be changed that would turn this "free" nation into a "Christian" nation.

Maybe when this so called "New World Order" kicks in...if it ever does...I wonder what religion it will be founded upon...Christian?


Long Live The Freedom of Amercia and the Right to Choose!




Edited for added link
Cheers!!!!

[edit on 2-1-2009 by RFBurns]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by RFBurns
 


Nation Master Encyclopedia President Religion Affiliation
An Austalian website may not be the best for American history, even with that this first one supports my take…notice all the Christian Denominations there? Know one can get in the mind or heart of a person, I know…I think you definition of “Christian” is too narrow…like all believers are right wing nutcases…whole lot more of us balanced folk out here.

Quartz Hill School of Theology
Read it, I’m all for the separation of church and state, again the article a little too theologically “picky” for me. Too narrow!


Religious Affiliations of US Presidents Wikipedia
Repeat of your first link.


The Christian Nation Myth
Horrendous source bro…infidels.com…wanting my man. Agenda all over the place..eeekkk!

Is America a Christian Nation?
Another one-sided one? Perhaps you need a little balance..perhaps I do? Thoughts? nobeliefdotcom?

US Not founded upon Christian beliefs
Another one-sided! Source list looks like the speakers roster at the Annual Atheist Convention at Coronado Springs.


Little Known US Document-US Government is Secular
Here’s the first line of this link…”A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America…” AGAIN YOU DEFINITION IS TOO NARROW.

Your throwing the baby out too…


Your sources are biased bro…


OT appreciates the time you took…but don’t give up on the faith thing.

Have a good one!



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by RFBurns
 



RF, I keep finding them...these type quotes are everywhere


Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."


Just because one believes that a majority of the signers of the Dec of
Independence loved Jesus, doesn't mean one wants to TAKE OVER or dominate everything...why does it all have to be a conspiracy...it is what it is, that's all..



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by RFBurns
 




Another one...


"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

G. Washington


Certainly you see that true faith is a guard for society mores, behavior and culture...you don't want that COVER removed? You don't disagree with our first president do you?

Maye you do? Would like to know why?


[edit on 2-1-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:11 PM
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Washington wasn't a Christian, the skeptic HOPES...

Well let's quote his personal diary... and see...


"Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by the Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thy son, Jesus Christ."


Sounds pretty orthodox to OT!



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:13 PM
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If we were such a SECULAR society...why did...


In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The congressof the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."


What were they thinking?



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Yea, but in 1963 some were saying..."Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence on Thee. We beg Thy blessings upon us and our parents and our teachers and our country. Amen."


God forbid we can't have that!

That prayer is SO offensive...we can't allow any body to say that in school!



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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So Bible reading was now unconstitutional , though the Bible was quoted 94 percent of the time by those who wrote our constitution and shaped our Nation and its system of education and justice and government.


Heck even in 1965, the Courts denied as unconstitutional the rights of a student in the public school cafeteria to bow his head and pray audibly for his food.

Any body checked the....


Divorce Rate
Murder Rate
Violence Rate
Incarcerations
etc
etc
etc

Since 1963?????

If I were a bettin' man I'D SAY IT WENT UP!!!!

OT wonders why?




posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

G. Washington

Maybe it was impossible (or at least pretty hard) for George Washington to govern the world without God and the Bible. Maybe christianity(but not morality as we can see clearly today) was indispensible for "political prosperity" as we know it. (sarcasm on) And we all know that religion is the reason national morality prevails :www.timesonline.co.uk...
(sarcasm off)



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 11:55 PM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 



See that one before...


The person who wrote that article is a persuasive writer. She puts a certain spin on the issue of crime and violence and tells us that America has more crime and violence because we are more religious than England. But what she is really doing is comparing two different countries where there are many differences such as culture, population, government, ehtnicity and so on. She takes one difference being religiousness of the citizens and assumes that this must be the reason. However I questin these facts because I am aware that in the last decade the religiousness of England is growing with The Church of England. It is a biased article poorly written, any one with an English degree and who has themselves studied persuasive writting can see right through it. You should have cited a better article and a less biased study. A study whose aim from the get go was not to discredit religion would have been better if there is such a one. This is an industry and Ruth Geldhill is profiting off of it as a so called Religion Corespondant. What does that mean? That she knows more about religion than everyone else? No she doesn't. Like I said, there is a difference between knowing about someone and actually knowing them. And I really doubt if Ruth really knows that much about religion. She is just in it for the money. She got paid to write that article to keep the fire burning, and somewhere someone will write an article refuting it and get paid, and then someone else will write a book about religion and crime, probably Ruth herself and she will get paid and on and on. Its like wrestle mania, and in this corner!



many have reviewed and discredited it...but you are free to believe its emptiness...just life a decade or more longer and you'll come to the right conclusion...


And I hope this doesn't evolve into a America vs. the world discussion



[edit on 2-1-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 



The Barna Group is the most - respected researchers on religious and morality statistics...extremely credible statiticians...I am a lean six sigma black belt....

Heres' their website and a blurb from one of there recents surveys...

www.barna.org...


“Until people recognize that there are moral absolutes and attempt to live in harmony with them, we are likely to see a continued decay of our moral foundations," the California-based researcher continued. "The generational data patterns make a compelling case for this on-going slide. Even most people associated with the Christian faith do not seem to have embraced biblical moral standards. Things are likely to get worse before they get better - and they are not likely to get better unless strong and appealing moral leadership emerges to challenge and redirect people’s thoughts and behavior. At the moment, such leadership is absent."



The data described above are from telephone interviews with a nationwide random sample of 1024 adults conducted in October 2003. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample is ±3 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. All of the interviews were conducted from the Barna Research Group telephone interviewing facility in Ventura, CA. Adults in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of respondents coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. adult population. Multiple callbacks were used to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of adults.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
So Bible reading was now unconstitutional , though the Bible was quoted 94 percent of the time by those who wrote our constitution and shaped our Nation and its system of education and justice and government.


Heck even in 1965, the Courts denied as unconstitutional the rights of a student in the public school cafeteria to bow his head and pray audibly for his food.

Any body checked the....


Divorce Rate
Murder Rate
Violence Rate
Incarcerations
etc
etc
etc

Since 1963?????

If I were a bettin' man I'D SAY IT WENT UP!!!!

OT wonders why?




Well I did a little research folks....here's what I found (over the next few posts...


Much has been said both for and against prayer in schools. There is little doubt that neither the founding fathers nor the Lord Jesus Himself would have been in favour of ‘forced’ or ‘state sponsored’ prayer. The option to pray or not to pray is a matter of individual choice and has to come from the heart. It is a matter of some doubt whether the actual doing away of prayer in schools has directly contributed to the escalation of teen-age pregnancies and suicides and the downward spiral of the SAT scores. The Pharisees thought they would be heard for their ‘much speaking’, and similarly it is questionable as to how much value there is in a ‘canned’ prayer even if recited by thousands of young people across the country. (Consider that most schools in India start their day with a very generic prayer, similar to the one that sparked the U.S. Supreme court’s decision on the Engels v. Vitale case in 1962).




However the indisputable statistics in the following article are too frightening to be ignored and, even more damningly, the downward slide in behavior started about the time of the court decision and very evidently had something to do with it. As we see it, the court ruling to remove prayer from the school system was nothing more than the ‘official’ stamp on the removal of God from a very crucial part of our society. It was simply one large step among many small ones, which has contributed to the moral & spiritual disintegration of the US. It was a flying leap across the narrow chasm separating a God fearing moral country and the chaotic ‘everything goes’ situation we find ourselves in today. The message the Supreme Court sent to the country that fateful day was that it was okay to ‘remove’ God from His rightful place.



source: www.inplainsite.org...

= = = = = = =

Well OT how bad did it get?

See the next few posts...skeptics any rebuttals?



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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A. Young People
1. For 15 years before 1963 pregnancies in girls ages 15 through 19 years had been no more than 15 per thousand After 1963 pregnancies increased 187% in the next 15 years.
2. For younger girls, ages 10 to 14 years, pregnancies since 1963 are up 553%.
3. Before 1963 sexually transmitted diseases among students were 400 per 100,000. Since 1963, they were up 226% in the next 12 years.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:51 PM
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B. The Family
1. Before 1963 divorce rates had been declining for 15 years. After 1963 divorces increased 300% each year for the next 15 years.
2. Since 1963 unmarried people living together is up 353%
3. Since 1963 single parent families are up 140%.
4. Since 1963 single parent families with children are up 160%.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:52 PM
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C. Education
1. The educational standard of measure has been the SAT scores. SAT scores had been steady for many years before 1963. From 1963 they rapidly declined for 18 consecutive years, even though the same test has been used since 1941.
2. In 1974-75 the rate of decline of the SAT scores decreased, even though they continued to decline. That was when there was an explosion of private religious schools. There were only 1000 Christian schools in 1965. Between 1974 to 1984 they increased to 32,000.
a. That could have an impact if the private schools had higher SAT scores. In checking with the SAT Board it was found that indeed the SAT scores for private schools were nearly 100 points higher than public schools.
b. In fact the scores were at the point where the public schools had been before their decline started in 1963 when prayer and Bible reading/ instruction was removed from the schools.
c. The scores in the public schools were still declining.
3. Of the nation's top academic scholars, three times as many come from private religious schools, which operate on one-third the funds as do the public schools.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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D. The Nation
1. Since 1963 violent crime has increased 544%.
3. Illegal drugs have become an enormous & uncontrollable problem.
2. 30 million citizens never got a shot at life....


Thoughts?



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:55 PM
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reply to post by sotp
 



Hey man, left you some sobering statistics...thoughts?



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Try explaining the love of Jesus to the native Americans that were shot, starved and chased out of their land.

I doubt they'll understand it.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
reply to post by GlossomBoodchild
 


Uhh...

I had another 2 paragraphs to further clarify my point...and for some reason only the first one posted...
Strange.
Perhaps it was "god" who deleted it...?
Perhaps I'll clarify later...very frustrated.



G, still waiting on the clarification bro...




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