Originally posted by Good Wolf
I left the church at the beginning of the year because of the constrictive cancerous nature of organised religion inside the church. I left considering many things and I had many questions. I prayed a lot, I read a lot, yada yada yada. The more I pondered reality and existence, the more agnostic I became because I realised that I was ignorant of truth, and as time progressed, I become more and more so. Uncertainty was all I had in the end and so finally I asked the question "Why do I believe what I believe? Why do I even believe in a God when I have nothing to go on?"

There was nothing I could use that I could objectively say "this is truth" or anything near that.

This is actually the first step - realizing you do not know the truth, and that you are ignorant of it. Coming from the church I don't blame you at all. I was saved 8 times by different churches and tried to "accept Jesus into my heart" and nothing ever changed for me. And I rejected the church for the same reasons you did.

Realizing they are full of it is the first step. But be cautious not to get caught up on the flip side of the coin - aka against everything about it. Because then you have let them define things for you, like it or not. You will need to sift things through to find the truth.

When I read Paul and the church, it is the exact opposite of what Jesus said to do. There is a long thread about this. I think of Paul as what not to do.

Answer me this - if you can see the church doesn't do the things Jesus says to do, and you can see how that church is full of hypocrites which Jesus warns about - is it the most logical thing to do to blame Jesus because they do not follow? Isn't Jesus actually on YOUR side because those are the things he told people not to do? Name everything the church and Christians have done that is wrong and I can show you were Jesus says not to do those things. I'm not saying you need to believe in God or accept Jesus as your "savior". But if you can understand and see why Jesus is right, and why those at the church are wrong - then that is to believe for the works sake. And that is something I think we can all do and agree with.

That was the big turn around for me. When I realized all the things I thought wrong about Religion - Jesus actually said so too. Read matthew 7, the church is the ones who have done things in sin. Spread religion by death and destruction and put the idol over the message. The church is who he is talking about there. Btw, in the bible he never calls them a "church", he calls them synagogues, and the religious hypocrites of today, he calls them Pharisees. He also doesn't call people "christians", because it didn't exist then, he calls them all Jews. Put these things in their correct place, and it makes a bit more sense.

But anyway, it will take some time. You've already taken the first steps by realizing and seeing them for what they are, and know that you don't know he truth. The rest will come in time as you ask certain questions, gain certain understandings which lead to more. Wouldn't give up hope on finding truth because of those who will try to feed you lies. Doesn't even have to be through Jesus, although if you find truth you will understand why and how Jesus spoke truth, and how the church never reveals it.

Thinking about reality I feel as if either there is no God or there is but he cares nothing of the individual, hence the unanswered questions and prayers. I prayed one last prayer, 'If you are there, you need to show yourself.'

Seeking God is useless if he wants to remain hidden.

Honest question - do you seek God, or do you seek to prove God doesn't exist? While these may seem to be the same thing, they are not. You are going to find what you seek. If you seek a perception that disproves God, then that is the perception you will find, and vice versa. Try not to think of God in terms of a man, a person or anything like that - those are not true. You won't find god "out there". God is pure consciousness, and your consciousness is a part of God(body is a temple of god, that sense of "I AM" etc). By exploring your own consciousness, you will find god if that is what you seek. Study up on philosophy - not the history of philosophy you get in college, but actual philosophy.

Here's a movie that can get things going. Asks alot of interesting questions and presents some crazy ideas. Starts out a bit slow, but picks up quickly. Isn't about religion or anything. Skip to the 4:30 sec mark to get past the slowness without missing anything.

Google Video Link

[edit on 27-12-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Umm, well I'd prefer it if a God did exist, but I just wanna know, to have some certainty. Frankly the answer is not as important to me as having the answer is.

Such pragmatic thought is the product of believing in oblivion, the materialistic universe.

I was same way. I don't just believe anything, I need understanding and atleast logical proof. I use to tell Christians their god didn't meet my moral standards and to worship anyone as they do just makes me a slave.

The universe is all about action and reaction. Consciousness is about reason and understanding. Being aware that you are aware.

If you are looking for somekind of scientific proof, I don't think you'll find it. If you are looking for personal answers, they can be found internally, not externally. It is not something you see with your eyes, it's something you see with/in your mind. But it's not something you just make up, you will know the difference if it happens. You will think you are crazy at first because you know it didn't come from your own thoughts. And it will be followed by a bunch of understandings and teachings(holy spirit is what the bible calls it) which appears to be synchronicity as you learn more and more.

People point externally to God so that you won't find God, and so they can fill the role for those who are blind.


[edit on 27-12-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Why do you make this personal? This isn't about you or people. I made the comparison between religion and cancer for a reason.

I do not have to decide what is cancer and what isn't. I let it decide for itself. Like Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits"

Doctors point fingers at cancers or sicknesses. Are they better than the patients?

Because you said to eliminate religion. Even though I am not in favor of organized religion, the action of deciding something for someone is not something I can agree with. When you make that action, you are indeed attacking me. Because those people you attack, they are me. You are me.

Yes, look at the fruits of the church. They are corrupted all over. Easy to see to anyone who looks. And of course, they will say don't look at that, look over here at this other fruit. IE: They will say don't look at the crusades, or WW2, or the other stuff, look over here at the charity work we've done.

But to eliminate other beliefs they felt was a cancer is exactly what they did. It's exactly what made their fruit corrupted. And so you have to find another way. A way of teaching and showing people truth, so that they will choose the better way. If you go around forcing beliefs on people, then they and you will stay in dualism fighting back and forth as they are going to see you as being someone who wants to force their beliefs.

The bible says - there is a way that seems right. And it seems right to try and rid the world of those who you think are wrong. But it only seems right. In reality it is not right for the very reasons I mention.

If Christians tried to force their beliefs on you, then I'd stick up for you and tell them they are wrong. And when you try to force beliefs on them, then I will stick up for them. Doesn't matter who I agree with or think is more right or wrong, because it's those kinds of actions I disagree with most.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
But as long as I look inside myself I'm going to find things that I produce, this is the subjective personal experience that I can't use on moral grounds. There's no way to know if it's of divine nature. I'm very familiar with this kind of internal searching, I was a christian for 10, and very devout for 4-5 of those years. The holy spirit seems on retrospect to be not but a disembodied psychological conviction than anything else.

You will know the difference. It is hard to explain what a vision is like. But you will know it didn't come from thought. When I had mine, it was the last thing on my mind, and it was totally unexpected. And it was like I was watching it happen, and I was looking through a different set of eyes, images much more clear than my actual thoughts are etc.

Because I knew it didn't come from my thoughts, I thought I was going crazy at first. But then weird things just started happening in totally unrelated events that were just like wow. You'll know the difference.

Don't try to create the vision itself, just ask yourself questions about reality and god and think of answers that make sense to you. In order to seek you have to ask questions. In order to ask God questions, you need to ask them to yourself internally and the answers will come. Don't look for the answers in your memory from what you've learned, think about how things must be logical and what certain things mean logically.

For example. If God is all knowing and omnipotent - did you know this means the universe is static and never moves in the perspective of God. Because there isn't anything new that can happen. The only way you can get time, motion and space like we see is because we aren't all knowing in our perspective. Our perspective is limited. When things change, we get the illusion of time, motion and space.

It's like in "God mode" you are looking at the entire film at once. It's all static. But when you put the film into a limited perception of frame by frame, and then change those frame by frame, suddenly the film comes "alive" and has time, motion and space. Now, if you know everything possible to happen as God is said to, that means every possibility must also be known in this static universe. That means rather than 1 film, there are unlimited amounts of flims stacked next to each other, each one like the one next to it, but a tiny bit of difference.

This is what creates choice. Do you take the film that has you sitting at your desk, or do you take the film that has you sitting on the couch? Your choice. Also this is a requirement of true freewill. Action and reaction never has a choice, it just does equal reaction of the action. Consciousness however can make a choice, that is what makes you special and that is why you are not of this static universe. Consequently, it is merely our limited perception that gives us the illusion of being stuck in a single film in linear time. We move across them all the time, but it appears linear to us because of our perspective.

You have to ask and ponder deep questions like these. You aren't going to find these answers in a science class. And answers will come, just like they did for me. Seek and you find.



[edit on 27-12-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I realize that we cannot force people into or out of their beliefs. I know that. So what can we do? Like you said, proper education is the key.

The thing about organized religions is they started out innocently by a group of people with similar illogical beliefs. They grow and grow until they become forces to reckon with. We see that today. This is what makes me so worried for us and future generations.

But what is to be considered proper education? And are you going to force this education on to people? Isn't that like forcing everyone to go to sunday school, or a catholic school? See what I mean?

All of my beliefs are completely logical and I can give understanding and logic behind them. But religion is just a set of beliefs, everyone has religion. You are here because you have religion. It may not be an organized religion, but it is a set of beliefs.

Einstein once said any fool can know, the point is to understand. This is a big problem with our education systems today, they teach people what to know, now how to understand. They can repeat what they are told from memory, acting on authorities behalf(those who told them the information) instead of their own intelligence and understanding. This is also true in religion, where people know what the bible says, but do not understand it. I understand it, I do not do all those things the church does.

These are the areas you should work on. The general way of peoples thinking and actions. Look deeper on this level rather than on the level of - the church is bad, get rid of it - which continues the way it's been done already and is not really change.

But that is what they have been doing! This is not limited to Christians. They are slowing down progresses and denying certain people's rights. Their beliefs are infringing on our rights!

And so because of this, you are justified somehow in doing the same actions? No. You do not rid the world of evil by killing evil or by the same actions of the evil, you will merely replace the evil and become the greater evil yourself - as history has proven. As you see this is what they have done, then it is up to you to break the pattern and do the right thing instead of becoming like they are. Again, to see this and how your actions become like theirs is to remove the beam from your own eye so you can see clearly. Don't be more of the problem, be the solution by being the example of the right way.



[edit on 27-12-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I've had visions and inspirations before, but it's still subjective experience. The power of suggestion coming from the desire to believe is a powerful thing, and under such circumstances, the mind can to make incredibly realistic delusions.

Ever watched Derren Brown.

I'm afraid subjective stuff like that won't do.

You know, even if they are subjective and such - If you can't believe in yourself then you are pretty well going to be screwed no matter what you do, as it will always be nullified by your own lack of confidence in what you experience. You will forever be slave to other peoples experiences and approvals for what may or may not be real.