and and That's...uh.... err.... why I would NEVER associate myself with Christianity (well, that and I don't believe that Jesus was G-d in the flesh born of a virgin; all minor details really)

Sounds like something like voodoo. I doubt these are real christians, are they???

But heck they are plenty of christian places worse than this all over the world, even though they call themsleves christian.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Note: this is not to say that God doesn't exist or that Jesus never existed. What I am saying is that interpretations and illogical beliefs are warping a lot of people's minds. Religion NEED TO BE ELIMINATED before it is too late.

This is ignorant and blind. Let me make a presentation on Hitler, and then say the entire human race needs to be eliminated because of him. Lets make a video about Stalin and use that as a reason for anyone without Religion or who is against religion to be eliminated and so on. Are you male between the ages of 18 and 35? Oh, lets highlight some serial killers and persecute you because of them. Or hey, whats your IQ? Lets find some people with IQ's around yours, highlight some of the ridiculous things a few of them do as an excuse to eliminate you.

The problem isn't religion, it's idiotic levels of thinking as you purpose right here. Why don't you elevate yourself to get past such idiocy and start thinking on a higher level? Lets just eliminate everything we don't like or agree with. Yes, that is a whole new level of thinking there. Oh wait, isn't that the exact same kind of thing you finger pointed at others for being so bad?

Oh thats right, it's OK when YOU do it. Again, how are you supposed to be better?

It is your level of thinking which is illogical. Just because you point fingers at certain people doesn't put you above them.

Hypocrite is all it makes you.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Are you saying that a person should not be judged on their own actions? Well that's justice out. No courts or prisons.

Why shouldn't we hold religion accountable aswell? The most destructive force on earth that we have seen is the dogma of the Judaeo-Christian-islamic religions. You mention Hitler. You know he was a Christian, he thought he was doing God's work. Have you heard of Martin Luther? The German priest who fathered the protestant movement? He wrote a book called 'On the Jews and their Lies.' Racism, sexism and all other sorts of -ism's come from this religion.

You don't see that kind of hate and persecution from Buddhists or Taoists do you?

So religions don't divide people, others do. Christianity has always divided and will continue to do so as it continues to splinter into evermore many factions and denominations often conflicting with one another (sometimes violently).

Read more of my posts. I frequently call the church we all know the church of Satan. I point out over and over the faults. They do not teach the same things Jesus did. They have lead people astray for their own purposes, and purposes of bad things.

I do not for a minute ignore these things. And they should all be pointed out for exactly what they are. But that is a big step away from banning religion. The moment you start banning religion, the moment you start trying to tell people what religions they can have, the moment you try to force certain beliefs on people is the moment you have stepped across the line. And when you step across that line you have become exactly that which you have pointed out as being bad.

The point about Hitler and others is that because you share some characteristics of it, does not mean you are the same, nor should anyone's opinion of you be based on those things. If we want to group people up like this, and then use the actions of a few as a way of judging them all, then you are forever a slave to the accusers, as these types of things can be done among any and all. Let him without sin cast the first stone.

And that is the point.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
WHOA. Hold on there. Where did I say that people need to be eliminated? Why are you twisting my words?

What I am talking about is RELIGION, or a simply very BAD IDEA.

Oh yeah, and how do you purpose to eliminate religion? Do you think people are just going to say - ohhh, ok. It's like saying Drugs are going to go away by making it illegal. It will end up being a war with people dieing. To pretend otherwise is dishonest or ignorant of the facts. Go ahead and walk down to Alabama and tell them you are going to make religion illegal. I didn't twist your words, I pointed out what will happen if such things are allowed to happen. It's a no brainer.

Bad idea or religion can and does breed like virus. It can take over entire community, country, or heck even entire world. This is a dictator's wet dream of a beautiful totalitarianism. This were Stalin and Hitler's dream and is a reality in North Korea and some other countries.

Maybe, just maybe if you looked beyond just the religion and instead of the actions then you could see my point. These are all ACTIONS that enforce beliefs onto other people. Sorry, but I am not foolish enough to commit to such actions or condone such actions just because you may think you ideas are better. If you are forcing it on people then you are forcing it on people period.

What do we do with onset of cancer? ELIMINATE IT!

Am I a cancer then for having beliefs? You want to eliminate me? You want to eliminate and not allow me to choose for myself? You think you are able to decide what is cancer and what isn't? Your actions are WRONG. Your actions are no better than the actions of those you point fingers at. Just because you believe your beliefs are better and right you think you should be able to decide for others. Oh isn't that exactly what is wrong with them? Yes it is, and that is what makes you a hypocrite.

Let's be honest. What do you think of Islam religion? Scientology? Some "voodoo religion"? Yep, exactly the same answer as mine!

It doesn't matter what I think of them. I am smart enough to realize I should not decide for them. I decide for me. You decide for You. If you can respect that, then great. If you can't, then I'm going to call you a hypocrite. You can disagree with them, you can point them out as being wrong, you can poke holes in it. But the moment you decide you should be able to choose another persons beliefs I will point you out as a hypocrite.

See above. Yeah, see? You think you are better than the rest of those "silly religion" people? Such hypocrisy!

Every man will think he is right. If he didn't, then he would change his mind. DUH. However, I do not put myself above others because I will allow them to believe whatever they want to believe. If I am asked of my opinion, I will give it. If I am given a place to give my opinion like this, then I will do so. What anyone does with it is there choice.

Where in the blue hell did I say I was better than them? Just because someone has a cancer that makes me better than that person? If someone is sick, wouldn't you want to help him or her?

Because you are blind to the truth and fail to see your actions mirror the ones you point fingers at. You don't rid the world of evil with more evil actions, you merely replace the evil and become a greater evil yourself. You aren't actually against the fact that these religions force beliefs on people and such, you are only against what they force and want to replace that with your own approved beliefs. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

I'm not even a fan of the church at all. I think and call it the Church of Satan. I think everyone who goes to them are most likely falsely lead. But I will not and I refuse to become the same as them by taking up their way. It is not the true way, it is the way of bringing more evil, intolerance and such into the world.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Rooting out a destructive force in humanity (by killing christianity) and beliefs on people are not the same thing. No, that's the opposite; forcing religion on a people. Secular = good, forced religion = bad.

Christianity has an awful bloody religion, I don't care what Jesus allegedly said, the teachings may be good but the religion is bad.

But the root of the destructive force isn't religion. Never has been. Religion is just the scapegoat here really. The root of the destructive force is people who can't live and let live. Those who can't just allow someone else to have their own beliefs. People who think other people should be managed, controlled and the information given to them decided by someone "higher", where as the higher power can take on the illusion of god or democracy or whatever else.

And what is being proposed when you ban a religion is exactly those things. Only now instead of being done in the name of a religion, it's being done in the name of something else. But the actions are still the same. The root of the destructive force is still there. In fact, hypocrisy is to be stuck in dualism. You will play the evil force for those "christians" or those of religion, and they play the evil force for you. Back and forth you will go in the wheel of dualism/hypocrisy. Only if you take a step outside the 2 sides can you see that in action, both of these 2 sides act the same. Thus, both are hypocrites. Meanwhile, as there is hypocrisy involved, both sides will point out the faults of the other as justification of the action, when in fact there is no real justification.

If you are to ever get past this kind of thing then you must realize this and change it. This is to see the beam in your own eye, so that you can remove it from another. You can only do that by taking a look at it from the outside, and from the other perspective.

Because how do you like it when someone calls your beliefs dumb, idiotic? How do you like it when someone takes the worst example they can find that has beliefs like yours and use it as an example to argue against you, or to say you are wrong? You wouldn't want someone to do that to you. So don't do it yourself.

It's fine to have the opinion something is wrong. You have to have your own understandings of things, and you shouldn't allow people to force their beliefs on you. Voice them. Point out the wrong doings of the church - I do, often. Point out the dumbness of the way some people read things literally, I do. But I would never tell them they can't have there opinion. You must realize the dualism involved here, and overcome it if people are to get beyond such things. As Einstein said - you can't solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created the problem. And what is being talked about here is the same level of thinking that created the problem. If you want to solve the problem then you need to look at the problem from a bigger perspective and a higher way of thinking. Otherwise you will be trapped in duality, and be the hypocrite in your actions.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
But you are right, you can't take away the religion because this is a democracy, and a very christian one at that. However I don't think I need worry, because it's dying anyway. Atheism is on the rise, isn't it, and less and less are committing to a faith.

I dunno, I used to be atheist. Until I realized it was pretty arrogant and ignorant of me to assume that something doesn't exist because it has come across my limited perception. Then I was agnostic, just figured I didn't know and neither did anyone else, and so then I seek and now I understand the truth. So meh, I don't know that atheism is on the increase, don't really care though, as Shakespear says - In his time a man plays many parts. I would call atheism just a stage.

I wish I could. The christians round here would immediately interpret criticism as an attack or some sort of persecution.

Yeah, keep playing that victim role. I'm not sure what you complain about though, what you see is yourself.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I used to be christian now am agnostic-atheist. The whole 'there is no evidence that god exists or the Jesus was divine' thing.

Thats because you were probably taught to look externally for god, as preperation for the anti-christ, rather than internally.

I was saved 8 times and nothing ever changed, until i realized John 14:20.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

It's probably got more to do with the fact that all the religions have equal amounts of subjective 'evidence' (and I use that term lightly).

It came down to faith, which is belief without evidence. It was a comfortable belief with a loving God and eternity of paradise and all that jazz, but I had nothing but the bibles word to go on. Frankly to believe it, I felt like I was deceiving myself, refusing to face the possibility of oblivion just cos it's hard and unsightly.

I'll believe in God when he shows up and leave evidence to believe beyond reasonable doubt.

You are no different than I was. To me it doesn't even matter if it's real or not. I know the things Jesus taught - not what the church teaches is the truth. I knew it before I even realized it was in the bible and that Jesus said such things. All I ever knew was what the church preached and how the church preached it. It never made sense to me, it never changed me or anything.

I didn't believe until I saw either. I think it's a natural part of seeking, which is required to actually find god. I was never told the name Jesus, or anything like that. I was shown that names and idols were not the important part, the important thing was the example and teachings brought forward. The church teaches to worship the idol as a way of hiding those teachings to people.

The church teaches external god so that when you look and don't find God externally, they can take the place of god. If you look internally, and you truly seek - you will find god. Jesus taught people they were the authority, he taught them of freedom, wisdom and so on, not the servitude, slavery and the way of the church.

The church is the church of Satan. I think it would be foolish of you to let them and their hypocrisy keep you from understanding the true words in what Jesus said. Don't look at the idol, his image(which the church has changed to resemble the anti-christ, not his true description), look at the understanding he is trying to bring in his parables.

And you can also come to these same understandings without the bible. I did. But it took awhile(years), and in the end I pretty much came to understand Jesus(and I was as anti-religion as you are now).

My best advice if you are truly interested and want to seek is to study up on consciousness and what it is. How it relates to perception and perspective, and how you have a unique and limited perspective on the universe. What are YOU? Is it your body? What is it that allows you understand what it is "to be"? That feeling of "I AM". Your eyes take in light, convert that into electrical singles that travel to the back of the brain, where they are presented in the image "You" see. To whom and what are these things being presented to? Who is the observer inside you? The man in the machine?

The church teaches you not to question. Exactly opposite of what Jesus said. In order to seek you have to ask questions. Ask questions and think about the answers, they will come and they will make sense.

Truth is, you are part of god.