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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 12:49 PM by t0ken
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Hamas just needs a few anti-tank missiles and stingers, that will end IDF and its incurssions.
Israel only prides in it's war gadgets,israeli soldiers are buncha cowards and weaklings that hide behind their merkavas.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 12:57 PM by t0ken
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by masonwatcher
you can ignore the Qur'an, you can ignore the writings of Bukhari, Ishaq, Tabari, and Muslim, and you can even ignore secular history which validates
that Islam was only spread by conquest,
All of the quotes you mentioned are taken out of context.
It's kinda strange that only US and israel find Islam as a threatning force that wants to take over the world.
We have the chinese and russians that are arming islamic nations with hi-tech weaponry and nukes and they don't feel the same as US and israel.
I would say 90% of nations feel more threatened by US and israel than Islam.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 01:01 PM by _Phoenix_
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I only read the first page, I just want to say something very simple.
There is always two sides to every story. And in this story BOTH sides are to blame.
Also can people STOP generalising? and choosing sides!? Why do you have to choose a side? this is not a game. Everyone on each side is an individual,
with their own views, own lives, own sins, and morals, each side has MANY innocent people in the middle of this chaos. Remember many hate the groups
who cause this chaos, because they bring more trouble to their families.
Let's look at the big picture, nothing is that black and white.
Hatred breeds more hatred. That's the problem here. Your starting to see more hatred even in people in this thread. It spreads...
Remember the individuals. There are groups of people making bad decisions on both sides, but MOST family people have nothing to do with this chaos,
and they are simply trying to live their lives.
Let's hope that the many people on both sides can one day have a peacefull and safe life.
[edit on 26-12-2008 by _Phoenix_]
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 01:17 PM by Harlequin
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reply to post by t0ken
They have russian ATGM`s that pop merk 4`s so don`t need any US weapons , they also have some manpads as well.
unlike most `terrorist` organisations - HAMAS only fight israel they don`t operate outside of the area so in one sense can be called `freedom fighters
, thery were formed to fight israel and only them , and thats what they do , using the weapons they have; they have unguided rockets , israel have
iron bombs - both kill innocents who are `collateral damage` to the military commanders.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 01:43 PM by dooper
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reply to post by Harlequin
I really don't subscribe to the term, "collateral damage."
I prefer the more accurate term, "enemy enablers."
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 01:48 PM by t0ken
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Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by t0ken
They have russian ATGM`s that pop merk 4`s so don`t need any US weapons , they also have some manpads as well.
HAMAS only fight israel they don`t operate outside of the area so in one sense can be called `freedom fighters'
They indeed are Freedom Fighters! 
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 01:54 PM by Harlequin
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both are just a meaningless label really for what really is random murder
really if warfare was vaguely civilised it would be taken to the middle of nowhere and dealt with there but no - the innocents have allways been used
as tools and leverage
on all sides.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 02:09 PM by Keyhole
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
You know very well that Israel controls the Gaza border. It is good that Hosni Mubarak negotiated the humanitarian aid through the Israeli lockdown.
Not from what I understand!
2008 Breach of the Gaza–Egypt Border
Although Israel demanded Egypt reseal the border due to security concerns, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ordered his troops to allow
crossings to alleviate the humanitarian crisis, while verifying that the Gazans did not attempt to bring weapons back to use against
Israel.
Gaza
On a more tangible level,Gaza and Egypt share an 11akmalong border.Control of that border was handed over to Egypt in September of 2005, and
another agreement was finalized one month later in which Egypt would share the responsibility of patrolling the boundary with the
newly created EU Border Assistance Mission in Rafah
As part of its disengagement from Gaza in September 2005,the
Israeli army handed over control and security responsibilities of
the Rafah crossing to Egypt,under EU supervision.Since Hamas
took over the Gaza Strip in June 2007, however, the border
has been closed, it was opened only briefly on January 23 2008
with the explosive breach of the six meter high border wall
in which thousands of desperate Gazans flooded into Egypt
to purchase much needed provisions.
So, all the information I can find says that the Gaza authorities, Egypt, and the EU Border Assistance Mission are the ones in control of the
Egypt-Gaza border.
Egypt can open the border anytime they, (and the authorities in Gaza) wish it to be open.
[edit on 12/26/2008 by Keyhole]
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 02:22 PM by masonwatcher
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reply to post by Keyhole
I stand corrected on that one. Nevertheless the border is permanently sealed and suspect is being monitored by Israel.
The only time Egypt left it open was when the Palestinians broke down the wall to get food.
See how a human being concedes a point. You zionist should try it.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 02:25 PM by John Matrix
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[edit on 26-12-2008 by John Matrix]
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 02:29 PM by dooper
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reply to post by Harlequin
Harlequin, you don't understand what war is, nor how it works.
War is two sides killing each other until one side is unable to kill further, or unwilling to get killed further. The moment that one side kills
enough of the other side, the war ends.
There is a number that must be killed before the war has become too awful for one side to suffer through any further.
Therefore, the side that kills the greatest number, with the greatest efficiency, in the greatest concentrations, in the shortest period of time, will
win.
To attempt to humanly conduct war is to actually increase the length of hostilities, thus causing more total casualties on both sides, and causing
more total suffering on both sides.
Thus, he who designs to be most merciful, will be most ruthless on the front end. Kill quickly, efficiently, and totally, and the war is over.
This stupid back and forth just enables a struggle to continue without resolution.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 02:37 PM by jam321
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reply to post by t0ken
Israel only prides in it's war gadgets,israeli soldiers are buncha cowards and weaklings that hide behind their merkavas.
And Hamas are even more cowardly hiding behind innocent men, women, and children. Guess it is easier to launch missiles than to confront Israel face
to face.Shows how serious they are about dying for the cause.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:15 PM by John Matrix
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Originally posted by RFBurns
reply to post by John Matrix
So becasue ol Saddam Insane went on an innocent killing rampage, that gives us the right to go in and do the same thing when he could have been taken
out back in 91 when good ol Wushy Bushy Sr. couldnt find him yet CBS news could?
PFFT!!!!
Same situation here with the Israli/Pakistan conflict. The back and forth senseless killing and its always the innocent that end up paying the
price.
Cheers!!!!
[edit on 26-12-2008 by RFBurns]
What Israeli/Pakistan conflict? It's India and Pakistan that have the conflict. Sure, there are many nations that know Pakistan is a haven for
terrorists. But it's not an Israeli/Pakistan conflict.
Dear monitor, the above is why I said he should research and stop trolling. Do your job and delete his nonsense. You had no reason to delete my
comments. Do your job and I won't do yours.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:19 PM by John Matrix
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Originally posted by t0ken
Hamas just needs a few anti-tank missiles and stingers, that will end IDF and its incurssions.
Israel only prides in it's war gadgets,israeli soldiers are buncha cowards and weaklings that hide behind their merkavas.
How do you know this?
Why does the monitor allow this trash talk and hate speech?
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:26 PM by Keyhole
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reply to post by jam321
Hamas is the reason why the borders have been closed by Israel AND Egypt!
Egypt's Quandary Over the Gaza Border
When Hamas took over last year in Gaza, Egypt closed the border (Israel also closed its border crossing points to Egypt) and has
characterized the Hamas takeover as an illegitimate coup. Although Egypt kept the border closed, the wall had been built by the Israelis before
their withdrawal.
And what REALLY is Egypt's "beef" with Hamas?
While Egypt has at times sought to facilitate negotiations between Hamas and Fatah, it has undeniably seen the Hamas takeover of Gaza last June
as a potential threat. Hamas, after all, evolved directly out of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, itself was originally founded under
the tutelage of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. The Egyptian government sees the Brotherhood as its most potent domestic threat.
******SKIP******
Consider this: some press reports and the United Nations have suggested that as many as 700,000 Palestinians entered Egypt from Gaza in the first days
after the border break-through.
******SKIP******
Half a million or more Palestinians pouring into northeastern Sinai could easily overwhelm the limited population of northeastern Sinai.
******SKIP******
The flood of pro-Hamas Palestinians into northern Sinai is likely interpreted by the Egyptian security establishment as a direct threat to Egypt’s
internal security. The demographic facts on the ground reinforce this.
So, as soon as Hamas gained control of Gaza, Israel AND Egypt closed their borders to Gaza!
But, there is also another reason Egypt wants to limit Gaza's accessability to Egypt!
Israel, meanwhile, is making sounds about getting out of the business of supplying electricity in Gaza now that “the border is open” with
Egypt. And because of the likelihood of criticism from other Arab states, Egypt cannot be very open about its fundamental concerns.
******SKIP******
Egypt also is clearly worried about the Israeli effort to shift responsibility for Gaza Egypt, of course has many connections to Gaza.
******SKIP******
Israel was not that eager to remain in Gaza either: it promoted a “Gaza first” approach in the Oslo talks and, of course, withdrew its forces
completely from Gaza in 2005. But there are some signs that Israel is leaning towards pressing Egypt to take responsibility for Gaza, something the
Egyptians see as a disastrous course.
Immediately after the breach in the border took place, Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai, a former general and member of the Labor
Party, (Party leader Ehud Barak, is the defense minister), publicly suggested that now that the border with Egypt was open, Israel should get out
of the role of supplying Gaza altogether. He told Army Radio that the disengagement process begun in 2005 “continues in that we want to stop
supplying electricity to them, stop supplying them with water and medicine, so that it would come from another place. We are responsible for it as
long as there is no alternative.”
So I guess these are the main reasons that Egypt also keeps it's borders closed to the Gaza. (I didn't know all this before reading up on it!)
Hamas is an off shoot of a group that the Egyptian government feels threatened by and they don't want to end up being responsible for being the
"caretaker" of Gaza!
I always wondered why Egypt kept their borders closed to Gaza!
[edit on 12/26/2008 by Keyhole]
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:34 PM by jam321
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reply to post by Keyhole
I appreciate the info. This is what I have been trying to say all along. That Hamas is the reason. I knew Egypt also closed the border but was not
aware of their reason for it. Very informative material you posted.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:35 PM by dooper
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reply to post by Keyhole
Ksyhole, excellent post. Very informative. Very concise. Validating what many of us have been saying about the Gazans. No one wants them, or the
headache they represent.
Just miserable people, desiring to be miserable, and only wanting to spread that misery.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:39 PM by intrepid
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Let's just look at this article:
Michael Dunn is Editor of the Middle East Journal. He has taught at various US universities, including Georgetown University and Utah State
University.
Disclaimer: Assertions and opinions in this Commentary are solely those of the above-mentioned author(s) and do not reflect necessarily the views of
the Middle East Institute, which expressly does not take positions on Middle East policy.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:42 PM by jam321
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reply to post by dooper
Validating what many of us have been saying about the Gazans. No one wants them, or the headache they represent.
I personally don't agree that no one wants the Gazans. Hamas are the ones they don't want. The people are just caught up in the middle.
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 03:46 PM by dooper
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reply to post by jam321
Well, unfortunately, the Gazans chose Hamas as their leadership. Thus, what befalls the Gazans, is due to the choices of the Gazans.
If it isn't Hamas, it's the PLO, or will be Hizballah, or another group dedicated to chaos and destruction.
When a people choose a direction, then they will suffer the consequences.
If the Gazans like terror, murder, destruction, and chaos, then they should learn to love it. They sure like dishing it out. Time to eat.
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