Yes. I understand what you are saying.
I think though that we should help each other with this -
not look to something otherworldly and certainly not look to organized religions that use sin, heaven, hell or virgins to get people to do what they consider "right".
This IS sinful. It's pretend and it perpetuates fear and guilt.

We can teach each other without the use of a diety.
We already ARE what we are striving to find in a diety.
We can slow down and appreciate life and treat each other with respect.
Look into a baby's eyes - hug a dog - kiss your kids - meditate.
Love is in everything.
I do understand what you are saying.
What I am saying is take it out of the magical.
We ARE already magical.

Hey Spinky. I agree with the fact that we don't need to use hell or virgins. I think that is man's way of polluting religion with his own way of making people do what he thinks God wants. I don't like that.
I get what you are saying too. I think we are pretty close on our feelings here...although slightly different I think we'd make great neighbors though..LOL
I just love having God in my life, so I like the magical in there... I just want us to focus more on love than on fear. Thanks for posts brother, I really appreciate your input.

I would probably accept religious people more if they started to live their lives after what they say they believe in. Most religions talk about killing others as a bad thing, at the same point presidents (christians, muslims etc) goes out to war - killing people. Yeah, we need a little bit less people, but war is not the solution, education is.

Many people flee their reality through religion. They say "God made man, and gave man a free will"... if so, then God probably don't care about what man do = why bother believe in, and give away a lot of time praying through life, when you could go out and actually help someone.

I saw a documentary about a young girl that wanted to be a nun in a really strict monastary (no direct contact to the real world, just monastary life). When she hade become a nun, she told the docu-maker that she would like to help all thousands of thousands of people that suffers, but she knew that she would only be able to help a few of them in her life, so instead of helping a hundred in her lifetime, she sat down to pray every night.... Let me just guess something here - she will help no other than her self in her lifetime. That's a selfish choice to make, which is the direct in opposite of what she believes in, in the first place.

It's not just the nun, it's every christian I've met so far, every muslim, jew etc. Religion is in my eyes the most selfish and decadent way of life someone can choose.

You must be joking right? Religion is one of the most used 'excuses' for war in these and past times...

"Convert to X religion or die!!!"... Does that ring a bell? Religion has been a true-fire way of keeping the 'masses' in check also. "Do what your religious leaders state and write in books or burn 'FOREVER' in a fiery inferno with no out called 'HELL'.

Supposedly back yonder certain humans were 'blessed' to see, hear and write down their lord/Jesus's words and passages, or events into certain Bibles and etc which I myself used to follow. The fact is how can we keep following something that will never ever be visible, and has yet to even make themselves known or acknowledged in even the most minor regard.

Blind faith? The fact that for something so 'loving' there is so many huge injustices in the world, which is controlled by alot of corrupt powers who intend to keep it that way.. Honestly a God would be great, and I suspect there must be beings out there that are on par to that level... However honestly.. As a human do you even bother to contemplate the existance of a colony of ants? (Unless your what ever the name for that type of biologist) I have never cared for them at all. They are beneath me (ants)... The same goes for any lesser creature.

The fact is that if you want to be a God of people/things, you have to honestly be there for the people... To be seen, and heard. Not written in a book and have preachers who state "BELIEVE or GO TO AN ETERNITY OF PAIN AND SUFFERING IN HELL!!!!".

So no.. Mankind can just as easily survive without books such as the bible, and personally I think religion is just a way to give excuses for war, thought control and etc.

I have said it before so I will say it again, modern religion is nothing more than a construct. A construt to serve two purposes, 1 control knowledge the other control the minds of the masses. This false modern religion replaced what was the true religion Paganism. The pagans were in tune with mother Earth and the Cosmos, they had knowledge of how the Earth and nature worked and knew of the heavens.

What we have had since that was obliterated is knowledge that is kept and control by religeous entities and through mind control the spread of hate and fear. Current day religion is the greatest mind control trick carried out on the human race. before a human is an adult his or her mind is corrupted by the religeous rantings of those who would control us. Long before we know about anything, laws of the land, education etc. from the cradle to the grave the religeous ghouls are lurking in the shadows.

Far from being the moral high ground religion to this very day has bred countless purges amd wars it knows no bounds to suffering and death. Religion is for those who wish to be controlled, to be dumbed down to be manipulated. If we want true religion then we should get rid of all this man made rubbish and revert to our Pagan ways, become free thinking agauin, looking after our World and our future. No more filling young minds with hate and fear trial and retribution.

Religon causes wars, wars are fought in the name of religon to reliquish and turn people of other religons. anyone remember the crusades? catholic/christians against muslims/islamic people? i bet they still remember and its probably preached to them thats why they constantly yell holy war.

Originally posted by rihred0
she knew that she would only be able to help a few of them in her life, so instead of helping a hundred in her lifetime, she sat down to pray every night.... Let me just guess something here - she will help no other than her self in her lifetime. That's a selfish choice to make, which is the direct in opposite of what she believes in, in the first place.

It's not just the nun, it's every christian I've met so far, every muslim, jew etc. Religion is in my eyes the most selfish and decadent way of life someone can choose.

Hi Rihred. As far as her choice being selfish...it may appear that way to someone like yourself who doesn't have faith. You say it is the direct opposite of what she believes in...no, it isn't. Prayer is a very big thing. Christians for example... they believe prayer has a very real effect on people and things. By her setting aside her time to pray she was in fact doing more. I know its hard to understand, especially when your looking at it from a non-religious point of view, but in her mind and faith she was doing more.
Well Rihred, I'm a Christian. I think you need to meet me then! lol. I'm far from decadent... I live in a trailer for Pete's sake lol. I'm sorry that those you have met have not lived up to the example they have put forth for themselves, but I can assure you that not all people are like that.
Just as a member of the Klu Klux Klan would tell you they never met a black person that was any good... I can tell you that is wrong. There are good Christians out there sacrificing themselves everyday. There are also good Muslims doing the will of Allah out there(and I'm not talking terrorists either...killing others is just wrong). I'm just asking that you not pre-judge everyone because of a few you have met. I promise you that there are a lot of good people out there and in every religion. Well... except Scientology...lol
Thanks for replying Rihred and take care of yourself brother.

Religion does not necessarily have anything to do with spirituality. Religions are generalized agreements between people, who are not all spiritual. Some are politically or socially connected and assume the spiritual image as part of the "general" package.

Many small communities throughout time have had one or more a central churches and it has served to be more like a community centralization for societal and cultural collective organization. If someone was not a member they would be scorned or ignored in many cases. The piousness of the church community would sometimes be truly christian and accept everyone, following more truly Christ's word, but there where/are those who become drunk with power and this is where the problems start. Sometimes these problems of control, money, influence turn a churches heart toward darker and less spiritual agenda, and as the church grows, it grows apart from the original spirit. Many a large church who found people would give their last dollar to help or support gods work would take advantage of these giving souls, and then took more for nothing but greed, a deadly sin! I know large churches who do good work and have helped me, and I help back. That is as it should be maybe.

We are still dealing with many weak links in the chain of man. We need much growing in our hearts and in our knowledge.

With all the deaths from "religious wars" outnumbering all the deaths of political and other wars, your statement might be contradictory.

With god in our hearts we can grow to our potentials. But God is everywhere, and not just in a church or a religion. Look in your heart. I would rather say;

"If mankind is to survive then God in our hearts should grow."

ZG

[edit on 12/24/2008 by ZeroGhost]

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by John Matrix

Sorry I never said anything about True Religion. True religion does not proceed from the fallen nature, it proceeds from the Holy Spirit. Those who accept the Spirit understand what I said is precisely what true religion consists of: because all that the scriptures say concerning true religion is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit which transmits the divine nature of God to us and through us. So all acts of love, charity, looking after widows and orphans, etc. is a manifestation of the Divine Nature by the power of the Holy Spirit working through us.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]
[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

Hey John, I like what you said. I may not understand it completely, but I like it. Let me ask you something. Could Christianity, in its most basic form, be a true religion that proceeds from the Holy Spirit? I consider myself a Christian... not Catholic, not Luthern, etc... I just follow Christ and try to live a Christ-like life...though I fail horribly, but I keep trying. Thanks for your post and input my brother.

The answer to your question is yes.
Rebirth, regeneration, redemption, spiritual baptism, sanctification, enlightenment, transformation, and illumination is the work of the Holy Spirit: all made possible by what Jesus accomplished on the cross, which he also did by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the incarnation of the divine nature of God. By submitting to the divine nature, one is by necessity obeying the Holy Spirit and showing faith in Christ, worshiping him, and demonstrating love for him.

For those who say wars are fought because of religion are, well right and wrong. Religion is just a code of beliefs and everyone believes in something different. Wars are fought for many reasons mainly because there is a difference in beliefs (ideals, values, religion, natural resources, whatever). See lets say I'm christian and my friend is christian (of the same church) does that automatically mean I believe in the same thing he does? No.

I don't know if anyone saw the episode of South Park (yes I'm actually quoting south park, stay with me) where Cartman froze himself and traveled into the future and there was a war being fought amongst the Athiests on what to call themselves. This may just be a silly show but it had a theme; wars are just fought in difference of beliefs whatever they may be.
If we intend to have peace on earth we must accept one another as individuals and with that accepting the difference in values and beliefs. If you get rid of religion you WILL NOT get rid of the wars.

Originally posted by JustInCase101
Religon causes wars, wars are fought in the name of religon to reliquish and turn people of other religons. anyone remember the crusades? catholic/christians against muslims/islamic people? i bet they still remember and its probably preached to them thats why they constantly yell holy war.

I'll give you the Crusades to a certain point. But I still contend that the majority of wars that are fought under the pretense of 'religion' are actually being fought for greed... not God. People just say religion is the reason they are fighting. Even the Crusades turned into a greedy war as belongings and homes were taken.
Do you think George invaded Iraq more for God or oil? I think his god is actually the oil. What do you think? Thanks for your post brother and have a good one.

the unfortunate side effect of religion however is people tend to take it too seriously and use it to run their lives instead of guide it. Then they also try and force it to run others lives.

And yes world leader use religion to drive policy, for abortion good god fearing republicans are against it and prolife, evil atheists are for abortion. Religion has leaked into almost every facet of our daily lives, and the reason why thats a bad thing is because with religion it is never enough just to be living and trying to find your own path, you have to be following gods path only.

God cant just be, he has to be all. And that stops us from doing a lot of things we could do if god werent a problem, like stem cell research and smoking some cannabis. Stem cells could possibly solve a ton of human maladies but god has made it to were we will never know.

Its not god that we need at this point its spirituality. Open mindedness that will let us evolve and travel our own paths, instead of restricting us to one drull pathway that we've already been down.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by caballero]

Originally posted by ZeroGhost
Religion does not necessarily have anything to do with spirituality. Religions are generalized agreements between people, who are not all spiritual. Some are politically or socially connected and assume the spiritual image as part of the "general" package.

Many a large church who found people would give their last dollar to help or support gods work would take advantage of these giving souls, and then took more for nothing but greed, a deadly sin! I know large churches who do good work and have helped me, and I help back. That is as it should be maybe.

We are still dealing with many weak links in the chain of man. We need much growing in our hearts and in our knowledge.

With all the deaths from "religious wars" outnumbering all the deaths of political and other wars, your statement might be contradictory.

With god in our hearts we can grow to our potentials. But God is everywhere, and not just in a church or a religion. Look in your heart. I would rather say;

"If mankind is to survive then God in our hearts should grow."

ZG

[edit on 12/24/2008 by ZeroGhost]

Some awesome points there Zero... I'm with ya. Yes, religion does not have to do with spirituality all the time... I was kinda using it as a catch-all there to get my point across. I've know many a people who have given their last dollar to the church. I think that is honorable... but I don't think God wishes one to suffer either... if that dollar could have gone to feed your children I think God would rather have you keep that dollar.
I love your comment about mankind only surviving if God in our hearts grows. Very cool! Take care.

My thought is that faith or a belief in something or someone supreme, divine, holy is not bad. I chose to believe in an omnipotent God. These beliefs do allow us to guage our moral values and help to direct us to do good; primarily because we have seen others who believe act this out.

What I have serious issues with is the 'church' today. I don't view the church as what I would envision it to be. To me, it is nothing more than a business; a numbers game. I don't believe that what is being taught from the pulpit is accurate. I believe it is the propagation of ideals that have been passed on literally for centuries, which are designed to glorify the church and not God.

I have seen people oppressed by the concept of tithing. I have seen people misled by the false doctrine of free will. I have heard people whose loved ones have died and were not believers calmly state that their loved one is in hell because of their unbelief and they're o.k. with this. (I do not believe in a literal hell)

I have seen preachers rise from a small congregation to building a 50,000 sq. ft. facility, along with the increase of their ego. I have seen ministers decked out in $700 shoes, a $1000+ suit, rings, jewelry, riding his Harley up on stage and all the while admonishing the congreation to tithe and give so that the church can put up a larger facility and pat themselves on the back.

I have witnessed back-biting and fighting amongst people who call themselves 'men of God'. I have watched a church board completely disregard biblical teachings in order to further their agenda.

Faith in something greater than yourself, love, hope, peace, goodwill towards men are all things I hold on to. The church has gone astray. My recommendation is that people do what Christ said "come out of her my people." The church was never meant to be what it is today. If Christ were walking on Earth right now, I'm sure there would be many church doors closing.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Freenrgy2]

Originally posted by caballero
the unfortunate side effect of religion however is people tend to take it too seriously and use it to run their lives instead of guide it. Then they also try and force it to run others lives.

And yes world leader use religion to drive policy, for abortion good god fearing republicans are against it and prolife, evil atheists are for abortion. Religion has leaked into almost every facet of our daily lives, and the reason why thats a bad thing is because with religion it is never enough just to be living and trying to find your own path, you have to be following gods path only.

God cant just be, he has to be all. And that stops us from doing a lot of things we could do if god werent a problem, like stem cell research and smoking some cannabis. Stem cells could possibly solve a ton of human maladies but god has made it to were we will never know.

Its not god that we need at this point its spirituality. Open mindedness that will let us evolve and travel our own paths, instead of restricting us to one drull pathway that we've already been down.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by caballero]

Hi Caballero, some good points there. I think I get where you are coming from there. Let's discuss them a little.
As far as people taking religion too seriously. It is a bad thing, as you suggest, when people take it so seriously that they shove it down your throat or tell you your going to hell because you think differently. I, and many like me, take it seriously too... however with a big difference. I choose God's path... I'm not forced upon it. I make God's path my own. I feel that I don't force my beliefs on others. The only way I show my belief (besides this forum..sorry if I'm preachy here) is by living a Christ-like life and showing my love for God to others by doing good and treating all as brothers.
You say that God just can't be, he has to be all. From a non-religious stand I understand what you mean... but from a religious stand you have to understand why that is wrong. To a religious person who believes in God He can only be that...ALL. That belief in no way affects my life in any negative way. I still play computer games, I still eat jello, and if you can believe it I even have a beer now and then! But when I am out interacting in the world I follow God's path. If I see someone hurt, I help. If I see someone lonely, I talk to them. No, I don't tell them about God. If they ask me why I am doing it.. I tell them up front. A simple sentence. "Because Christ would do it for me." I don't say another word unless they ask. I will NEVER shove my belief down someone's throat.

Stem cells? I don't know if that is a great example. Even with no God I would probably be against it because it makes benefit from dead babies. I honestly don't know that much about it... I know there are lots of ethical questions involved. Do we use the knowledge from the Nazi's that tortured prisoners in WWII? I don't know. That is for another forum I think because I have no answer to that one.
Take care now and I hope you understand a little better where I was going. I appreciate your thought and post... take care now brother.