If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue.

I also hate the word "religion"
it instantly implies the act of worship..

worship has got to be one of the strongest "EGO" words
I have ever seen.

even if there is a "Creator"
I would still NOT worship him /her/it.......(the dude must be on some kinda
super ego trip or something).
You will worship me
...... sounds like a bad sci-fi horror movie

I must say the although it is a very basic and diabolical plan..
this.....religion.
I`m still shocked to see in this day that it is STILL the center
and the MAIN DRIVING FORCE behind most of the worlds
CONFICTS.

good go religion...... you suck

religion has been and is a controlling factor in our daily life, it is about mind control and power and of course money
this goes way back in history
get rid of religion and let us live under good moral standards and we will have peace on our great planet

ktk

I have to say that I do not care for organized religion, however, I do believe in FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY and the CONSTITUTION. Therefore, I support freedom of religion and oppose those that would deny anyone that right.

That being said,

Religions are the inventions of the fallen nature. It's mans way of reaching out to God, attempting to please God and trying to find favour with God. Religion is so men can feel good about themselves and point fingers at the sinners, infidels, heathens, or anyone that does not follow what he believes. Religions are all corrupt because they are all invented and/or infected by the fallen nature of man.

The problem is in the fallen human nature with all it's earthly passions such as jealousy,envy, pride, and wrath which manifest in our actions such as outbursts of anger, vengeance, disputes, dissensions, factions, lying, stealing, muggings, hatred, bickering, quarreling, gossiping, back biting, and taking pleasure in the misfortunes of others(not a complete list).

One can be spiritual without organized religion....or any religion for that matter.

There will not be unity among people as long as people reject the one Spirit that can unite us all. It is a Spirit that stands opposed to deeds of the fallen nature as are listed above. Such a Spirit transcends all religions, cultures, ethnicity's, knowledge, inventions, beliefs, governments, powers, systems, wisdom, etc.

The Spirit is not something we invent. We don't find it, it finds us. When it finds us it manifests by compelling us to a rebirth, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and do unto others as we would have others do unto us. It compels us to do acts of kindness, compassion, mercy, and all acts contrary to the fallen nature...etc.

But man fails to recognize that these angelic compulsions are not his own, and the opportunity to transcend his fallen nature is lost in the catacombs of his foolish pride, where he takes glory for his goodness and so dishonors the Spirit.

Such compulsions are not from our own nature but are the unctions of the one Spirit with the power to unite us all. To desire a heart governed by the angelic tempers of this one Holy Spirit is the beginning of one's true enlightenment. The Spirit gives us rebirth and opens us up to a new world and a new life within us. The Spirit brings unity; knowledge; wisdom; transition and illumination to our lives.

Then, we will we see clearly.

reply to post by Ghost147

Why is it illogical to think in a way of proof, testing and constantly backed up evidence? Wouldnt it be illogical to think that something that we cannot prove, test, see, hear, watch, witness or anything of the sort to not only exist somehow

I have specifically addressed the issue of evidence. What is seen is endless complexity and apparent design in that the universe contains order, which we summarize as 'laws', and further apparent design in that living organisms are by their very essence extraordinarily complex in their physiological makeup. And that is not to mention the interrelated, intertwined role each plays in the overall scheme of things.

When it comes to life-forms the information contained within DNA alone is such a wonderful example of exquisitely purposefully structured information that that alone is sufficient grounds for saying evidence for design and a designer is an entirely logical conclusion.

As to not being able to prove, test, see, hear, watch, witness, etc. we can do all of that with respect to the vastly complex systems I have referred to. However with respect to God himself your request to be able to do these things is exposed as illogical at the first hurdle: you fail to appreciate that that which is conceived to have brought the entire universe into being must by its very nature exist beyond that which it created.

Your premise is no different to a blind man saying he will not accept things are real unless he can touch, hear or feel them.

...but create everything for no apparent reason?

The fact you are unaware of the reason does not equate to there being no reason. I most certainly believe there was and remains a reason this all came into being. A very real reason. Another day, another discussion.

You then state that you now have evidence to prove god.

When people quote you as saying something you did not it tends to weaken their case considerably. I said:

The evidence that God is real is there...

Evidence. I said there is evidence, and laid some of it out. I then specifically said proof is not what I claim:

What is not there is total, seeing-is-believing proof.

Nothing ambiguous there.

...after over-looking the obvious hypocritical view behind "evidence is wrong, but i have evidence to prove I'm right"...

Again I never said anything about any evidence being wrong, but my evidence being right. Yet another straw man argument!

...lets say in the future (near future) that a computer were to become as complex, would you renounce your faith?

If you think near future you have no idea of the complexity of life.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CHECK OUT A SIMPLIFICATION OF WHAT GOES ON WITHIN A SINGLE HUMAN CELL

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frankly to think humans could ever create such marvels & put billions of them together in working, self-replicating order defies reality. (Gauntlet swiftly hits the floor.)

You also are implying that anyone not a theist, must believe in evolution.

Without insisting there are no exceptions, the fact is that is indeed nearly always the choice. Interesting how when one challenges the mathematical and logical basis of intricate, purposeful design by chance "It doesn't have to have been evolution" is a frequent retort. Suggests a real insecurity with respect to evolution.

We don't fear punishment, we don't fear a devil, we don't believe that this is only a test, we take life as a gift for we know it is our only one.

Really? Now here's a thing. You know something you can't prove. That's faith if ever I saw it.

there is barely any evidence that this Jesus actually existed

I, and many hundreds of millions of others beg to differ. Another day, another discussion.

The majority of figures that wrote about this Jesus didnt actually witness him, or even were alive during his time. Which would declare those words hearsay (heard from another).

On the contrary, only those who were eyewitnesses wrote the New Testament. Another day, another discussion.

Religion for most is a way to stay ignorant, for they, deep inside their subconscious mind, are afraid of knowledge.

Rejecting God for most is a way to stay ignorant, for they, deep inside their subconscious mind, are afraid of judgement.

Which one is more illogical?

I maintain that there is powerful logic, not to mention evidence, behind faith in God. Each individual is welcome to weigh the arguments and reach their own conclusion.



[edit on 24/12/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Alienmojo
If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue.

MY OPINION - if mankind is to survive then 'religion' must end and SPIRITUALITY must continue (or be born) - it must overtake organized blood thirsty religions.

It would be easier to revamp religion so spirituality can thrive and continue. Getting rid of religion isn't going to help spirituality, but harm it. The problem with today's religion is that it has moved away from brotherly love to rules and greed.

reply to post by Alienmojo


The ability to live in freedom is what some people, ignorant people, are willing to give up over a stupid movie I guess. Its great to see someone who forms opinions in, if you believe in him, your god given brain. I am agnostic but I would hate to see a world where faith in a higher diety was taken away. If that goes whats next. I applaud you for your satiracle way of debating back the genius who watched a movie and then wanted to take our rights away. Bill Maher is a very smart guy, but even smart individuals get it wrong sometimes and this one is a no brainer. Thanks for the debate.

Religion exists as a logical explanation to nature's complexities. It has started in many places over centuries, and you cannot undo something that has evolved through many years. Most religions teach good behavior, and if you take religion away, what will then be the basis of good behavior? There are also other religions that preach death and hatred, which should be avoided, but there are some that really teach how to be good. I think most people that do not believe there is a god do so, to justify their offensive behavior.

Originally posted by John Matrix


Religions are the inventions of the fallen nature. It's mans way of reaching out to God, attempting to please God and trying to find favour with God. Religion is so men can feel good about themselves and point fingers at the sinners, infidels, heathens, or anyone that does not follow what he believes. Religions are all corrupt because they are all invented and/or infected by the fallen nature of man.

True religion is not made to point fingers at anyone... that is man's doing and his perversion of it. Again, that is why Christ associated Himself with sinners and always angered the Sadducces by sitting with them. Jesus didn't point fingers. I'm saying we can make religions better by living our beliefs and not pointing fingers. Show brotherly love and respect and live your religion.
Our 'fallen nature' is the whole point that Jesus came down. To forgive sins. That got rid of the fallen nature...but in the time since Jesus, man has greedily changed his religion and has fallen from the basic purpose of it in the first place... to love each other and treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself.
Religion needs to be fixed, not gotten rid of.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Alienmojo]

Originally posted by alienj
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

. I applaud you for your satiracle way of debating back the genius who watched a movie and then wanted to take our rights away. Bill Maher is a very smart guy, but even smart individuals get it wrong sometimes and this one is a no brainer. Thanks for the debate.

Hey Alienj.... hmmm wonder if your related to me? lol Thanks for catching my sarcasam at that other post, a lot of people missed it or hadn't read the other post.
Your right. Bill Maher is incredibly smart and I said in one other post that I think something happened to him in his life to make him so antagonistic towards religion...maybe it was him who didn't get that bike he asked God for... I don't know.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

Is there a particular reason you are intentionally plagiarizing this thread?

Your post is almost 100% verbatim what the OP wrote in his/her thread, with the excpetion that you take the opposite opinion. If you disgaree, fine, but at least have the decency to write your own post and not copy and paste a member's post from another thread and try to pass it off as your own with a few sentences changed.

Yes there is a reason. Its called sarcasm. And considering I added several thousand words after it I was hoping you would pick up on it. Sorry if you didn't.

Actually I just counted. I wrote 415 extra words and he wrote around 107...so that means I only copied 20%. Sorry I said several thousand...it felt like it though.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Alienmojo]

Originally posted by Malynn
You beat me to it. I was about to say this thread is 100% lame if only for the fact that you totally copied it from someone else and changed a few words around. Plagiarist.

I'm sorry that you didn't understand my intent at sarcasm at the post and that I also added more than a thousand words to it. The whole point was to get your attention to it. I'm glad I at least got you to get half of what I was doing... hopefully after reading all these other posts of mine (since the other poster refused to answer questions) you will understand more of what I was trying to accomplish here.
You want to call me a plagiarist... that's fine. Then you missed the entire point and I'm sorry.

Originally posted by alienj
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

I am agnostic but I would hate to see a world where faith in a higher diety was taken away. If that goes whats next. .

Isn't all that happens next is that we take responsibility for our actions?
We become good people. We choose love and tollerance.
Why do we need religion or a higher diety to tell us what is right or wrong?
We already know. We have always known. We just have to choose it.

Originally posted by Freelancer
Why does the Opening Post sound very much like this one?.

Surly your opposing views should be stated in the thread I have just given rather than starting an entirely new one. It is plain to see you are already aware of the previous thread since your Opening Post is worded very similar.

This is nothing but a cheap shot

Sorry if you think so. That poster refused to even answer posts. I was being sarcastic by changing that post and don't forget that I added over a thousand words to the post... so it was new. Did you even read all of it?

Originally posted by spinkyboo

Originally posted by alienj
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

I am agnostic but I would hate to see a world where faith in a higher diety was taken away. If that goes whats next. .

Isn't all that happens next is that we take responsibility for our actions?
We become good people. We choose love and tollerance.
Why do we need religion or a higher diety to tell us what is right or wrong?
We already know. We have always known. We just have to choose it.

My point is that when religion is acted upon correctly it will help promote love and understanding. I'm not saying that 'you' need a deity to tell you this... I'm only saying that believing in a deity can help individuals. Does that make any sense?

reply to post by Alienmojo


Love the thread. S&F. You've got chutzpah.

reply to post by chapter29


LOL I didn't realize atheists held the patent for logic, reason, intelligence, and critical thinking skills. With as much as those words are tossed around, you'd think they did.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by John Matrix


Religions are the inventions of the fallen nature. It's mans way of reaching out to God, attempting to please God and trying to find favour with God. Religion is so men can feel good about themselves and point fingers at the sinners, infidels, heathens, or anyone that does not follow what he believes. Religions are all corrupt because they are all invented and/or infected by the fallen nature of man.

True religion is not made to point fingers at anyone... that is man's doing and his perversion of it. Again, that is why Christ associated Himself with sinners and always angered the Sadducces by sitting with them. Jesus didn't point fingers. I'm saying we can make religions better by living our beliefs and not pointing fingers. Show brotherly love and respect and live your religion.
Our 'fallen nature' is the whole point that Jesus came down. To forgive sins. That got rid of the fallen nature...but in the time since Jesus, man has greedily changed his religion and has fallen from the basic purpose of it in the first place... to love each other and treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself.
Religion needs to be fixed, not gotten rid of.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by Alienmojo]

Sorry I never said anything about True Religion. True religion does not proceed from the fallen nature, it proceeds from the Holy Spirit. Those who accept the Spirit understand what I said is precisely what true religion consists of: because all that the scriptures say concerning true religion is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit which transmits the divine nature of God to us and through us. So all acts of love, charity, looking after widows and orphans, etc. is a manifestation of the Divine Nature by the power of the Holy Spirit working through us.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by John Matrix

Sorry I never said anything about True Religion. True religion does not proceed from the fallen nature, it proceeds from the Holy Spirit. Those who accept the Spirit understand what I said is precisely what true religion consists of: because all that the scriptures say concerning true religion is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit which transmits the divine nature of God to us and through us. So all acts of love, charity, looking after widows and orphans, etc. is a manifestation of the Divine Nature by the power of the Holy Spirit working through us.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]
[edit on 24-12-2008 by John Matrix]

Hey John, I like what you said. I may not understand it completely, but I like it. Let me ask you something. Could Christianity, in its most basic form, be a true religion that proceeds from the Holy Spirit? I consider myself a Christian... not Catholic, not Luthern, etc... I just follow Christ and try to live a Christ-like life...though I fail horribly, but I keep trying. Thanks for your post and input my brother.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

Love the thread. S&F. You've got chutzpah.

Thanks Ashley, that was very nice of you! Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

Originally posted by spinkyboo

Originally posted by alienj
reply to post by Alienmojo

 

I am agnostic but I would hate to see a world where faith in a higher diety was taken away. If that goes whats next. .

Isn't all that happens next is that we take responsibility for our actions?
We become good people. We choose love and tollerance.
Why do we need religion or a higher diety to tell us what is right or wrong?
We already know. We have always known. We just have to choose it.

My point is that when religion is acted upon correctly it will help promote love and understanding. I'm not saying that 'you' need a deity to tell you this... I'm only saying that believing in a deity can help individuals. Does that make any sense?

Yes. I understand what you are saying.
I think though that we should help each other with this -
not look to something otherworldly and certainly not look to organized religions that use sin, heaven, hell or virgins to get people to do what they consider "right".
This IS sinful. It's pretend and it perpetuates fear and guilt.

We can teach each other without the use of a diety.
We already ARE what we are striving to find in a diety.
We can slow down and appreciate life and treat each other with respect.
Look into a baby's eyes - hug a dog - kiss your kids - meditate.
Love is in everything.
I do understand what you are saying.
What I am saying is take it out of the magical.
We ARE already magical.

reply to post by Alienmojo


Are humans weak and stupid?

Why do we need religion to help and guide us? Please god help with this and that. Please god don't let this and that happen. Do you honestly think he's up there pulling at strings of life. "Nope, you can die, you can live, you can have this and you can have that, you can't have this and that... People say about a spiritual part of the human, what if that's a part that we're yet to evolve into?

The bible is made up of 66 books that have been re-written many times!! And changed here and there to suit.

The sumerians thoughts are written in stone, yet they're referred to as myth?? There are quite a few parallels between the sumerian "myths" and the bible. What if we were genetically engineered by the annunaki (those from heaven who come to earth)? It would explain the missing link...
The koran states mohammed was carried to heaven by a winged creature!??

Religion is a good way of generating control, money, war and power.
g bush used it heavily to get his way with things!!

Look at 9/11(911 mysteries-on you tube) in the states and 7/7 in the uk. The government had training exercises going on the same day. The same scenarios that actually got hit. Both times! In the uk it was the same targets!! Now they have there never ending war on terror and control through fear


Religion is the same weakness and stupidity that the people behind the new world order use against us!

Religion can be used to manipulate to easy, it holds us back and dumbed down. It's a weakness. end of.