If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue., page 4
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reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 12:55 PM by Ghost147
reply to post by pause4thought


dear god... (that is an expression, i don't actually believe in one)

There are a few flaws to your "logic" (as you like to call it). Why is it illogical to think in a way of proof, testing and constantly backed up evidence? Wouldnt it be illogical to think that something that we cannot prove, test, see, hear, watch, witness or anything of the sort to not only exist somehow, but create everything for no apparent reason?

You then state that you now have evidence to prove god. the water, the rocks, the life and so on. Now, after over-looking the obvious hypocritical view behind "evidence is wrong, but i have evidence to prove I'm right", you then have to back up that evidence with more evidence. How it came to be, why it came to be, what made it came to be, and so on. Otherwise you are just claiming in speculation that something made this other thing, which is irrelevant to any argument.



Believing inanimate rocks and elements somehow came together by chance to form billions of life forms infinitely more complex than all the world's computers put together defies maths, logic, and, frankly sanity itself. But no worries - we can't see who did it or even conceive a conscious Being great enough to conceive and then put together an entire universe, laws and all.


UHG! this is the biggest thing in creationism that ticks me off the most. It isn't random! I will explain if you want me to but frankly i am really tired of having to constantly go over this. True, though, that all the computers in the world cannot become as complex as the life on it. So, lets say in the future (near future) that a computer were to become as complex, would you renounce your faith? Technology is young, modern science is young. the days before both of these were what we like to call the dark ages (a time in which "science" and religion co-existed). You also are implying that anyone not a theist, must believe in evolution. You generalize a population that doesn't believe in god, to must believe in something. this is where you are drastically wrong. For being an atheist allows you to be different, we are all completely diverse. We don't follow the laws of one, we take what is reality and apply it to the life we live, We don't fear punishment, we don't fear a devil, we don't believe that this is only a test, we take life as a gift for we know it is our only one.

You go on to say that "god made himself present to us" and what not (i assume you are referring to Jesus). Now, that was a good 2000 and some years ago. which is fine and all, however, there is barely any evidence that this Jesus actually existed. You may respond "the bible tells us", which i would retaliate with this response. The majority of figures that wrote about this Jesus didnt actually witness him, or even were alive during his time. Which would declare those words hearsay (heard from another). so what exactly is truthful?

I do realize completely that you are one of those extremists that protects all of their beliefs with simple lines like "it was meant to be" and "it was gods will" and all of that fun stuff. Which also leads me to the familiar conclusion that you will have no chance in being persuaded in thinking in any other manner what so ever because you are so incredibly close minded in your religion that you will not accept what is the reality. So, this message is not entirely directed to you, but to the other theists out there that are willing to accept possibilities other than what the vast majority of society wants you to believe in, a god.

Religion for most is a way to stay ignorant, for they, deep inside their subconscious mind, are afraid of knowledge. They are afraid to learn and ask questions for fear of punishment and the possibility of a god actually existing. Unfortunately, there is no real proof of a god or gods, nor is there a way to completely disprove god. However, on one side of the battle you have people offering wisdom, knowledge, evidence, facts, and information in which the curious can visually see and do. And on the other, you walk blindly, following the orders of a book that may very possibly be wrong in many cases, people that offer the curious no form of proof, no visuals, no way of knowing until the end, you only have a word from someone who believes but also cannot proof, test or do. Which one is more illogical?


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:05 PM by Anonymous ATS
Religion needs to be understood by assessing it from two related perspectives-

First is the specific stories, rules, beliefs and dogmas of each religion which is the source of the separation of people into "insiders" and "outsiders". This is often a very negative force in the world. Ethnocentrism is a word that captures this separation and means the belief in the rightness of one's culture above all others. This has many bad consequences, it is easier to harm outsiders and to justify their oppression.

The second level is the fundamental human needs that most all religions fulfill through those dogmas. These needs can't be ignored or eliminated and are why religion is so pervasive. The needs are answers to our unconscious needs- where did we come from, what is the meaning of life? What is the definition of good, and a good life? What happens when we die? Each religion gives varying answers which results in the harm done to humanity on the whole by religion, yet to replace it means we still need the myths to filfill our needs.

I advocate secular humanism as a legiimate set of values and dogmas that has the most positive impaqct on society without the separation into the saved and the damned. Myths or origin, meaning and afterlife needs to be recognized as human e=needs and satisfied through learning about what we know through science about the nature of existence, which will yield more objective answers to thes mysteries as we evolve our consciousness. The books of late anthropologest Joseph Campbell better illuminate this analysis.


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:10 PM by rickyrrr
reply to post by Alienmojo


The problem I personally have with religion is that I have found it hard to believe a number of the claims included within it as they come in conflict with other knowledge that I now have. And it is very important to me to be honest with myself and to acknowledge inconsistencies and deal with them if possible.

With that said, I think that a code of ethics is a good thing that does make the world better, and religion is for some people a vehicle to having a personal code of ethics.

However, I think a religious approach to a personal code of ethics, when compared to a scientific approach based on understanding as best as possible ones emotions and responses, (psychology) is limiting in that it can be (as often is) an all or nothing affair.

Every holy book suggests and requires that one believe ALL of the contents, not just pick and choose. A scientific approach is open to adjustment and change as more is understood about our nature. Nobody is forced to believe anything and claims are supported by evidence and may be taken back if evidence to the contrary comes up (at least in principle, though not always in practice)

Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) many religious people are very flexible in their beliefs and conveniently select what is useful and reject what is merely "historic" from their holy books. This is good for everybody else, and for themselves, although it is also dishonest and also frowned upon by other more strict religious people (who often lead) That internal conflict is not healthy for the mind. For example, a christian who is only so because it is a good thing and helps them and everybody is very dishonest and inconsistent if this person doesn't actually believe that there is a man capable of miracles who died and resurrected and did a number of, quite frankly, unbelievable things. Yet a lot of people find themselves in that situation and play along. And part of what religious leaders say is that it is OK to sometimes have doubt but that still absolute faith is required, that you are just being tested. The persuasion techniques used by some, if not the best, religious leaders are right in line with NLP and salesmanship, and can leave one feeling something akin to "buyers remorse", acting in a way inconsistent with ones beliefs because of a need for approval by the religious figure and a need to belong to the social group, as often religion becomes for most people. We all need our social anchors, both religious people and not religious.

Many internal unacknowledged conflicts arise for people when they are religious, and the "correct" way to deal with them is to not acknowledge them and just "believe" around them. Faith is presented as the solution for lack of belief. This is a neurotic way of acting and is very tough to deal with. I dealt with that for enough time and it wasn't until I started acknowledging my internal conflicts (like sexual desires, inability to believe in the unbelievable, etc) that I realized I was an agnostic.

As a result of this change a lot of things happened: I lost my virginity (whoohoo!) I started partying a lot more.

From there I went to atheist and then back to agnostic. I guess In matters of the supernatural I won't know until I die, and maybe not even then. I cannot presume to know the answers.

But for people who are intelligent enough to spot internal inconsistencies, as was the case for me, religion can be a very difficult way to attain a code of ethics.

I realize that this is only a minority of people and from a "world leaders" perspective, one would want the "masses" to be religious, and they can certainly handle it, they may in fact be lost without it. I am personally not concerned with that perspective. I believe that this perspective lowers religion to the status of a policy making tool and I believe that religion is a personal matter that should be discussed in a framework of personal belief, not of "what is good for the world" kind of way.

-rrr

corrected spelling

[edit on 24-12-2008 by rickyrrr]


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:18 PM by MakeSoap
I believe that religion, at its root, is a great thing. But over the years people have begun to cling more to the symbolic representation of the abstract spiritual concepts which they represent. People are more into SAYING they are religious rather than BEING religious. Just the WORD "God," for example, is so limiting, so hindering, so constricting. "God" in a noun and a noun can be genderized, classified, and scrutinized. As a result in this case people begin to truly believe that they completely understand what GOD, the word, represents. But really, no one can fully grasp the concept of “the is” which is called "God." I personally do believe in God, but I don't like to call it God or give it a gender or expect it to "think," not like the way we think anyway. God is the is. Religions use words, symbols to communicate deep concepts and internal spiritual struggles for which no words exist. That's why there's the stories. At the end of a story you are left FEELING something which is unique to that story. HUMANS ONLY UNDERSTAND SYMBOLS AND THE IS SPEAKS IN DEEP ROOTED ABSTRACT EMOTION. We need to express the things we feel, and the things we feel are SO POWERFUL that a single word cannot do. We create stories to express our own personal spiritual feelings. The problem is that now people are so distracted debating over the characters and locations and times and places of the events in the story, that they are forgetting the overall message which is to love and be loved. That's pretty simple and beautiful.

I do believe that religion should continue into the future, but it must evolve. We have to give up our identity as Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc and become simply "religious" or "spiritual." For example, my religion is who I am. Your religion is who you are. It can be updated and changed on a day to day basis and the only rule is FEEL love, for that is what makes one religious or spiritual in the first place; the ability to FEEL whatever "love" actually is. Getting to know that feeling, not being afraid to share that feeling with EVERYONE, that is our goal.


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:25 PM by Replikant
reply to post by Muundoggie


It seems only natural that a God who created the human race and the world for them to inhabit would be angry and vengeful when He sees what we have done to the earth and what we have become as people. It's hilarious how people keep going on and on about how they don't believe in a God who would judge his creations and send them to Hell, etc when they disobey his commandments....yet many people choose to believe solely in a loving God who loves everyone despite of their faults, and when everyone dies, they all go to heaven! Yay! God loves us, let's do whatever we want!

Put yourself in God's position. If you saw what your beloved creations were doing, murdering, stealing, corruption in YOUR name, explicitly going against every rule that you laid down, destroying the earth and nature, and denying that you even exist, how would you feel?


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:28 PM by Ghost147
reply to post by Replikant


well apparently we cannot "fathom" god or his existence at all because it is too complex for us simple minded humans. so we cant do what you ask



reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:31 PM by rickyrrr
Originally posted by Replikant
reply to post by Muundoggie



Put yourself in God's position. If you saw what your beloved creations were doing, murdering, stealing, corruption in YOUR name, explicitly going against every rule that you laid down, destroying the earth and nature, and denying that you even exist, how would you feel?


I'd feel quite powerless. But isn't god supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient? if so, he would have known from the start that his beloved humans he created were flawed, and he would have known the error of his ways way in advance. So you have presented a picture of god that is inconsistent with the notion of omnipotence and omniscience, more consistent with a human inventor or biologist who is frustrated by the results of his experiment because he wasn't very sure of what he was doing, or something unexpected went wrong. Or maybe a kid who got a puppy and it started crapping in the house, sad and disappointed, but most definitely powerless. A god that is omnipotent and also powerless does not exist.

-rrr


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 01:54 PM by Alienmojo
Originally posted by aylyan
organised religion has gotta go,individual philosophy is the only way.

let's take a look at the 2 options.

1. existence has always been and will always be.

2. something sprang into existence somehow then proceeded to make some other things for some reason.

remember what you thought before you were told what to think?is there anyone who thought that existence wasn't eternal?

whatever,merry new years all.

Merry new years to you too Aylyan! I see what you are talking about and for so many reasons I have been against organized religion too... but I don't think getting rid of it will solve anything. The basic concept of it is good... we humans just screwed it up and let people who were power hungry abuse it. I say its time for the people to take back our religions. Forget about all the stupid stuff they try to make us think about.... that homosexuality is wrong, or where to pray, or what to wear... what we need to do is go back to our basics. My best example, but not one you have to follow...it works for me though... is to look at Christ's life and try to live my life like His to the best that I can. We can't be Christ... that would be impossible, but we can TRY! When you fail don't just give up... do something that shows you love your neighbor and move on! Everytime you fail do something nice for someone you don't even know! Even if it is just opening a door or smiling at a stranger. Feel the love in your heart and show it to people. That is how I show my love and belief in Christ...NOT by going to your door and shoving my beliefs down your throat... instead I do it by showing you how I live my life.

As to your thoughts on existence... as human beings it is hard for us to see or understand the metaphysical... to us there has to be a reason or a start. I believe that God always existed... nothing created God and all creation came from Him (and I say Him just because its easier to visualize God in this way...in fact he is neither female or male). That's a hard concept to grasp as a human... just as we can't visualize infinity... we know it exists, but we can't truly see it. That is like God... we know he's there, but its just so difficult to get a clear picture.

So you know what I do? I trust God. I figure He has a good grasp on things. Horrible things happen and we ask why? I don't. I trust my Father. Jesus said he was love... and like the concept of infinity we may not be able to see or understand how He is showing us that love (what with all the death and evil that is around us), but rest assured that HE IS! He never would have sent down His son if he wasn't.

So... Trust the Big Guy... He's on top of things folks.



reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 02:09 PM by pureevil81
Originally posted by Alienmojo

First, if you think religion should be continued, then flag and star right now.
I'm not going to post links and sources, because this is just a statement that I firmly believe in.


I respect that.

I just sat and watched the Bill Maher movie "Religulous" about religion, and although I know he hand picked the wackiest of all people to put in his film and did some creative editing to boost the point, the bottom line is that Bill Maher is using a satiric movie to bolster his anti-religious rheteric.


Or it could be he was just making a statement he firmly believed in, sounds alot like your OP.

War, Policy, and pretty much everything else that effects the growth of man as a species is driven by people who don't use religion to direct them(Unless you are speaking of some mid-eastern countries, of course). I don't see President Bush or the PM of England using religion to direct anything they do. The idea that they would is just fanciful whimsy.


Are you sure about that? Why is every church tax exempt then? Why is the president required to be religious, have we ever had a non-religious president. George bush said god told him to go to war, did you miss that?

Religion must continue, end of story. Logic and common sense are fine when you are faced with a problem, but when religion is used correctly and sincerely it can greatly help with life's problems and how one deals with them.


I disagree, I hate the word " religion " just because it makes me feel all dirty and nasty. Thinking for ourselves is all we need, some meditation and prayer never hurt either.

Oh and guess what, logic tells me I just got a whole bunch of people angry... or at least one person in particular. I, unlike some, have no problem discussing this with anyone... after all this is a forum if I remember correctly, not just a place to spout one's illogical ideas and then run away. Disagreeing with people is fine as long is it is done in a logical and respectful way.


Agreed, hopefully you aren't taking my words the wrong way.

So If you don't like what I have to say... that is fine because that is your God-given right.


It is my right, as well as everyone's, how much it is god-given is up for debate.

I'm sorry if some people hate religion because they didn't get that red tri-cycle they asked God for when they were 8. I will be the first to agree that many people use religion to benefit their own ends. However... when used correctly and sincerely religion actually helps the world. Let's give some examples that my friend didn't bother to include in his rant.


I hate religion, but I didn't always feel this way. I would have been in the same mindset as you a few months ago. and I never asked for a red tri-cycle, it was green ........let's take a look at your examples now.

Missionaries, church goers, and others who give of their free time and money to help others who are worse off then others. Good Samaritans who help others less fortunate in their God's name. Yes, I know there are those that kill in their God's name.. but that is wrong. I'm talking about the good people who do good because of what they believe in.


There are good people that are not religious in any way that care for their fellow person and try to do good, it is not only exclusive to religious people. How about those religious people that come to my door and try to " save " me. how presumptious is that. killing in god's name is wrong, and god killing ton's of people in the OT is just as wrong. I doubt jesus was speaking of the god of the OT.

What I truly feel is occurring here is that people are using religion as a scapegoat for their problems. WTC? Religious fanatics. Our countries' financial crisis? Must be those religious nuts again.


no, the government is making it seem that way, however if you look at the evidence you will find it is the GOVERNMENT spinning it to make it look like muslims were responsible for 9/11. the financial crisis, the government say's noone is responsible, probably because they can't find anyone else to blame? just keep paying your taxes while THE CHURCH doesnt have to worry about paying the taxes. it's all good right?

I'm here to tell you that the basis of all religion is the betterment of one's self through the helping of others. This can lead one to heaven, nirvanah, or whatever you wish to call it. When religion is perverted it is used as an excuse to terrorize and hurt others. Those people are wrong, of course! However, it is my contention that religion, in and of itself, is a good thing.


once again, you do not have to be religious in any way to help others and do good, some people just have compassion naturally, doesnt really have to be given to you by a jealous murdering god. religion is perverted nowadays, just as it always has been. it is a tool.

So all I ask is not to persecute all religious beliefs. I know mine are quite simple and it actually hurts to hear people hating religious people so much. Without religion I would not be the caring and helpful person that I am... and humble (LOL)... sorry, trying to make a point here so I am putting humility aside (I'll be the first to tell you that I fail at being good quite often... but I keep trying).


What about all those people that are caring and helpful and humble without giving a second thought to religion? but i know what you mean here....my views are pretty simple as well, but I can't explain it in one post, ya just have to get to know me to understand where I am coming from. Don't you think if people looked into THEMSELVES more that they would learn to care and be humble on their own? having religious dogma shoved down one's throat has a tendency to drive people the wrong way. you can never be good enough.......

So let's hear what you think my ATS friends. Both good and bad... that's ok. Just remember... don't tear me apart to harshly.. I bruise easily.


I hope this left you bruise free and able to enjoy your christmas eve, and christmas day......that is some of what I think though, like I said, if you don't know me you might take this the wrong way.

peace my friend.




[edit on 24-12-2008 by pureevil81]


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 02:13 PM by Alienmojo
Originally posted by DrumsRfun
reply to post by Alienmojo


Ok I am gonna try to be nice and not sound like a knowitall but I really have to get this off my chest.
The problem in the world is the religious.Why do people get so mad at religion??
Well first of all the religious groups are the first to tell you that you need to be saved.Lots of talking...they are about as saved as you are and still need to blab on.

I didn't reply to the other thread as I saw that as a given.I wanted to reply to this thread partly bcuz I am blown away that there are still people on this planet that can't see what the finger is pointing at...all they see is the finger.
Sorry if this sounds mean or harsh...I don't mean to offend.

Hey Drums,
No problem brother... I would never get mad at you for your beliefs. I certainly understand most of what is being said here. I HATE it when the religious group find you and tell you to be saved or your going to hell or they condemn you for what you are doing.

What I am trying to get across here is that we need to STOP PREACHING AND START LIVING our beliefs. Show what being saved means! People don't want to be preached at. But if I come to your aid, even when there is nothing in it for me, maybe that will show you God's love. Either way, its a lot better than having some preacher with his finger in your face telling you your going to hell.

And yes... many wars are religious based, but not the majority my friend. Not even some wars that cited religious reasons for going to war. The real reason, THE HUMAN REASON, is greed. Pure and simple selfish people who want power and money and sex and whatever. Religion is a scapegoat for people to use as an excuse for their actions... I say call it for what it truly is... GREED.

So Drums, lets not get rid of religion or blame it.. let's refine it to a more pure form and make it better... something that benefits mankind and glorifies God. Let's start living our lives as brothers and loving one another. Christ sat with the theives and prostitutes for a reason. He wanted to show us that true love, compassion, and religion isn't just hanging with the 'in' crowd or rich and powerful folk.

I write this so you know the hypocricy doesn't fall to everyone who is religious. There are lots of us out there that want to Glorify God by living a Christ-like life and not pointing fingers and ringing doorbells and telling people they are going to hell if they don't believe.

Maybe I'm a romantic... but I know we as a human race can better ourselves by giving respect and love to all. Look upon everyone as your brother and treat them like that. I'm talking about just a smile in the supermarket even! Show the love and it will come back to you multiple times... I promise! Do it in God's name in your heart and I promise you that you will be blessed for it.

Many people don't understand what it means to truly Glorify the Father, many think it means singing in church or spreading the word... that's great...but did you know you can even glorify the Father by playing football or getting a good score on a test at school? Just do your best in everything, that's what God wants and in doing so you will Glorify Him. So if you lose the football game does that mean you didn't do it right? NO. If you did your best an for God that's all that matters.

I don't play football... so I do it in other ways. Even in this post I am doing it because I am trying to respond to everyone and do it to my best. God loves it when you do stuff like that for Him. When I am out I say hi to people, open doors, stop for someone who has a flat, etc... and I glorify God everytime and do my best for him. I hope that makes sense.

Even if you don't believe you can still emulate Christ. For whether you believe he was the son of God or not, he was still a great and compassionate man, not to mention a great teacher. I would just hope that as you try to emulate the good man that God would lead you to Him somehow... that is my hope and my prayer for all.

People tend to use God... whether it is the Pope, Jerry Falwell, religious fanatics, or what. If you are using God to get money, better your circumstance, or hurt people you are missing God's whole point. Like
Austin Powers would say... "IT's LOVE baby...LOVE!!"



reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 02:24 PM by Alienmojo
reply to post by pureevil81

Hey Pureevil, how ya doing? No, you didn't hurt my feelings and I appreciate your post.
I didn't miss old George using God as an excuse to attack others...but remember.. it was an excuse and NOT the real purpose. As I said before leaders can use religion as an excuse to do horrible things. George doesn't care about God... because he believes himself to be the next best thing. Its greed and power that are the true reasons for his wars.

As you said, "...some meditation and prayer never hurt either." That is what I feel religion should do with love...add to it, NOT overshadow it. We get so bound by rules and regulations that we forget the purpose that Christ set forth for us...to love each other.''

As for those who come to your door to 'save' you... I am against that. I feel we need to spread love and not point fingers. We need to live our lives and offer that up as proof that our beliefs are correct...NOT by coming to your door and telling you that you are going to hell if you don't believe.

I do realize that you don't have to be religious to help others. My post, and the reason behind it, was because of those who were against religion. My point is only that if religion is done correctly it benefits mankind. Done incorrectly and it slows us down.

Don't worry, I took nothing you said the wrong way. I love a good debate with someone... even if it doesn't mix with what I believe. I hope you have a great X-mas too my friend!


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 02:31 PM by Trojanman18
reply to post by Alienmojo

I was raised catholic, completed all my classes, and the whole nine but as soon as I turned 18 my mother told me I could go out and believe in whatever I saw fit. I just couldn't understand how so many different religions could claim to be the truth. only one religion could be right, so which one?

After the catholic curches embarrassing priest scandel, I came to the conclusion that you're all liar's and hypocrites. How are you gonna tell me what's right and wrong, then after mass go and touch little boys? Now I do believe in a higher power, but think All religions are for the weak minded! We have the ablility to think and reason, so what's wrong with just having and idea about what's the truth? Idea's can be changed, but belief's are nearly impossible to change, even when there's evidence that what you believe in is tainted by the actions of those who are the supposed moral authority.

As far as the evangelical's/Born agian peeps, you blow my mind with the judgement of others all the time. You are agianst abortion's, yet think that teaching teens about sex is wrong. You point your finger's at gay americans wanting to get married pulling the "Protection of marrage' card, yet the majority of californian's are divorced. You preach about Love and following christ's image, yet support an administration who dropped thousands of bombs on innocent Iraqi's. WTF is you're problem?It's almost like you don't listen to what you preach. Stop hating on everyone and start looking at yourselve first!!! You're the problem, not us who just want to live in peace and freedom! HI Haters!!! New guy here so take it easy!


reply posted on 24-12-2008 @ 02:37 PM by pureevil81
Originally posted by Alienmojo
reply to post by pureevil81

Hey Pureevil, how ya doing? No, you didn't hurt my feelings and I appreciate your post.
I didn't miss old George using God as an excuse to attack others...but remember.. it was an excuse and NOT the real purpose. As I said before leaders can use religion as an excuse to do horrible things. George doesn't care about God... because he believes himself to be the next best thing. Its greed and power that are the true reasons for his wars.


I'm good, alienmojo......I am glad you can look past words and realize the main points I attempt to get across, as far as disagreeing I can graciously accept that as well.

I know george used that as an excuse, it happens alot throughout history doesn't it? The bad apples have seemingly ruined it for the rest of the religious people, just as with anything else. in my opinion.

From what I have read from you, it doesn't seem you need " religion " at all.....is it out of loyalty that you are still religious? being loyal to religion because it taught you to care and be humble?

You seem like you are one of the few who actually care and you seem to have your head on straight, I cant say that for most religious poeple.

Good for you, I hope it all works out well for you.

happy holidays to you and yours friend.
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