Swift's knowledge of two Moons around Mars

Proof of ancient knowledge from an unknown civilization? The smoking gun of aliens whispering unknown knowledge to the elite?

You often see the claim that Swift's knowledge MUST have come from some secret advanced knowledge - how could he have known?

...................................Inner Moon............ Outer Moon
....................................(Swift) / (Actual) (Swift) / (Actual)
Radius (Mars Diameters).....3............1.38......5..........3.46
Revolution period (hrs).......10...........7.7......21.5......30.3

So how did Swift, a writer and wit of some note achieve such accuracy?

In 1726 the British author Jonathon Swift wrote a satirical book called 'Gulliver's Travels'. In this work, Swift wrote that the inhabitants of Laputa had discovered two satellites that revolve around Mars. Not content with this, Swift even specified the orbital radius and periods of these moons as follows the chart above:

Many people have been astounded by Swift's apparent knowledge of these Martian moons 150 years before they were discovered by Asaph Hall. It is particularly interesting why Swift should have placed the inner moon so close to the planet, with such an unusually fast period of revolution.

However, as amazing as this may seem at first glance, a detailed analysis shows that Swift's choices are quite in accord with the available scientific knowledge of the day.

In 1610, following Galileo's discovery of 4 moons around Jupiter, Kepler speculated that Mars would be found to have 2 moons. He based this on observations that in proceeding out from the Sun, Venus had no moons, Earth one, Mars two, the "missing" planet three, and Jupiter four. This belief would have been strengthened in Swift's time, as by then five moons had been discovered around Saturn.

If we look at the orbital radii of the moons of Jupiter, we might see why Swift chose the orbits he did for the Martian moons.

*Orbital radii of Jovian Moons in Jovian diameters*
Moon 1 (Io) 2.9 (rounds to Swift's value of 3)
Moon 2 (Europa) 4.7 (rounds to Swift's value of 5)
Moon 3 (Ganymede) 7.4 (N/A)
Moon 4 (Callisto) 13.1 (N/A)

Once the orbital radius is given then Kepler's or Newton's laws may be called upon to compute the period. Two quantities are needed for this calculation - the diameter of Mars and its mass (or alternatively Kepler's constant for Mars). The first quantity was known (although it was believed to be 7700 km). It appears that Swift assumed an Earth mass, as this gives the figures he quoted. And so we see that maybe the "mystery" is not so mysterious after all. Some people have stated that Swift could not possibly have performed the required calculations. This may be so. But he undoubtedly had friends who could!

FromThe site of this knowledge


[edit on 23/12/08 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Hanslune



I agree with you there Hanslune. Many novel writers include some sort of scientific data in their work but most of the time they choose scientific speculation because it makes an interesting story.

I love this part in Galileo's theory.

"the "missing" planet [had] three [moons]" (Brackets mine)

As you can tell I'm a firm believer in the destroyed planet theory.
Hanslune you keep the A&LC forum alive! You must be working for ATS.

reply to post by lostinspace


Howdy Lostinspace

Wish I was (working for ATS) I could make some Yen here.

"the "missing" planet [had] three [moons]" (Brackets mine)

Hey my favorite (dwarf] planet is Ceres

Back in Swift's time they thought the solar system was more orderly than it turned out to be.

reply to post by Hanslune


I never looked up the details on Ceres before. It stands out amongst the other asteroids, in size and surface features. There's a strange white light emitting from the surface of Ceres. You can see the Hubble image on the wikipedia article.

This wikipedia article has the hubble photo.
Ceres (dwarf planet)

The concept of a more orderly solar system helped them find Ceres with Titius Bode Law. Most of the planet spacing fits in nicely with Bode's Law, except for Neptune. Neptune should have been where Pluto orbits. Maybe thousands of years ago Neptune had an orbit where Pluto is presently. Pluto and Charon could have been moons of Neptune.




[edit on 24-12-2008 by lostinspace]

[edit on 24-12-2008 by lostinspace]

Originally posted by Hanslune
...................................Inner Moon............ Outer Moon
....................................(Swift) / (Actual) (Swift) / (Actual)
Radius (Mars Diameters).....3............1.38......5..........3.46
Revolution period (hrs).......10...........7.7......21.5......30.3

Funny, I dont even consider Swifts values all that close, especially not to the point of being "mystical". Now, if he had guessed like 1.35 and 3.5 on the radius and 7.5 and 30 on the revolution then I'd consider it amazing.

reply to post by merka


Howdy Merka

Yes is guessestimate, when considered after taking in the amount of knowledge he may have had available aren't that remarkable. It is the unfortunate tendency in the fringe world to take the interesting and remarkable and make it mysterious and proof of elites, advanced humans and aliens.

I'm still waiting for the fringe cworld to take up HG Wells, Lovecraft and Verne in a major way.......

[edit on 26/12/08 by Hanslune]

I find it more interesting that Swift wrote a story about tiny people and giants.I have seen our-sized people and tiny people on Mars from unmasking rove pics,yet I'm still waiting to see the giants.If they are there,maybe they don't visit the rover sites. That part is what made me think he had alien knowledge. Viking 1976 lander/doll-sized animal with almost humanoid features,and friend. This many years ago IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

reply to post by vze2xjjk


Some time before we had another individual here who saw aliens in badly over processed images. Are you a new version or the same person?

Ah vze2xjjk

This thread is about Swift's knowledge of two moons around Mars.

Your input is off topic and rather strange. It might be more appropriate in the UFO and Aliens forum.