Madoff, Banking Bailout and the Mob?

Originally posted by cpdaman
www.marketoracle.co.uk...

Madoff moved the money to isreal?

also

www.dailypaul.com...

looks like he has tried to protect clients from Russia, France, And the Usa by moving some of his $$ to isreal banks little while bag......gee no mention of this on the msm

............

WMR previously reported that Madoff is suspected of transferring much of his ill-gotten gain to Israeli banks, including one, Bank Leumi, that Madoff associate J. Ezra Merkin bought from the Israeli government when Ariel Sharon was prime minister and current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was finance minister.

i think something smells very fishy that this guy all of a sudden decides to turn himself in and say one day " you know what....... i have been running this huge ponzi scam" bring me to justice.

he's going to a country club jail and will get out well before whatever time he is given by a judge.......perhaps he admitted fraud to prevent a process of discovery..... i dunnno ....why would banks invest in a guy without taking a look at his books and realizing it was a fraud? Do his investors get re-imbursed by the gov't since he pleaded guilty to fraud

From what I see on those links it seems to be that there is a growing idea that Madoff didnt actually partake in a Ponzi scheme but rather funneled the money to Israel, in fact a particular bank in Israel. The people posting there say he made the money by fully taking advantage of the sub prime mess and the CDS/CDO industry as well as speculative buying of condos in Vegas and Miami. They claim that this man was some kind of Oracle or really a true genius who saw how everything was going to play out. Also that the people invested in him know that the money is safe in Israel and that he did this to divest out of a potential US collapse. That he is adamant about not paying the IRS or the US govt any money or taxes and such for the fraud he perpetrated.

I dont know if I believe all that, I mean I guess I could see him funneling some money to Israel along with the Caymans and other destinations. But to say he was some sort of genius and a Super Zionist Jew supremacist is really to much. I mean show some proof of these claims, to me it seems like some anti-semitic blame the Jew ideology.

Like everything else I am open ot its possibility but dont believe it until see some viable evidence. Has there been any? or is it all just rumors?

reply to post by Desolate Cancer


I already repeated a story I was told from an attorney who represents one of madoff's victims. This guy had tried to get madoff to take in a new account, an Israeil with some government money. Madoff flew to France to meet with the Israeli and he would not give an answer to his investor as to whether or not he was going to take the Israeli in. The amount the Israeli wanted to invest was $250 or $350 million. Can't recall. Anyway, the victim and madoff danced around the issue until, finally, the victim asked him straight up, will you let him in. Madoff asked what branch of the gov't did this man represent.

Mossad was the answer.

A hand slammed on the table, a loud, resounding NO and the end of the conversation.

Madoff was no dummy. He didn't want to be murdered.

Everyone who was involved with madoff seemed to have also had an account with him. I learned today that a friend of mine from college worked for Madoff for 8 years. Not in the individual accounts scam but on the market maker side of things.

Anyway, I spoke with him today, after reading his name on the employee list. Turns out he was also an investor, as was his dad. He said most everyone who worked with Bernie had an account. One of the perks of working for the man.

I highly doubt he was funnelling money to Israel. I know for a fact that the clients that were bilked don't think their money is safe in Israel. They are distraught over losing their life's work. Some have put their homes up for sale. Some are now in need of jobs in the worst job market in decades. Some, like my cousin's 90 year old grandfather, might actually find himself homeless as a result of this.

The idea that this was some mass conspiracy to funnel money back to Israel is nonsense.

The funny thing is, I was talking to the husband of a victim (client of mine). He is a muslim man from lebanon. Married to a jewish woman. He's a hell of a guy. About as nice as they come. He toyed with the idea of changing his last name after 9/11 as he feared it sounded too muslim. He did change his name to Mo from Mohammed to avoid any more scrutiny than he'd already get for looking like a middle eastern muslim man. Anyway, we were talking about the madoff mess and he was signing his amended returns and he made a comment about it is probably a good thing Madoff focused his scam on jews. He said that, had the victims been, primarily christians and christian charities or muslims and muslim charities, jews might not be able to walk the streets anymore.

reply to post by Crakeur


Yea I mean that idea of it being a mass conspiracy really smelled like hate mongering or perhaps just a chance for anti-semites to surface their resentment towrds Jews in a more comfortable setting. I mean maybe this is what the Jewish scholars were worried about when they said anti-semites will have a field day with this Madoff thing.

It really is funny how even when its Jews who get scammed it gets turned around on them that they are the ones scamming everyone else through some sort of secret cabal network that all Jews are in.

How did that Mossad guy have 250-300 million to invest? I am convinced in my own conspiratorial view that the Mob is filled with many ex and current people who work in intelligence.

More from DeepCapture investigator Mark Mitchell. Thought I would post the link and a few excerpts in Crakeur' thread for the sake of consistency Apologize if posted elsewhere.

reply to post by Crakeur

Hi Crakeur. If Madoff was not directly involved with Israeli clients...Mitchell draws a circuitous road map through the shady world of mob connected hedge funds, investment management firms, and short-selling boiler-rooms....all sharing affiliations...one seedy character, or another.

Robert A. Marmon, who was hired by Palmieri to run Crazy Eddie, told me that he arrived to find that the company’s top employees – the only people who had had direct access to the Antars – were all burly, armed thugs who claimed to be former employees of the Mossad, Israel’s secret intelligence agency.

Madoff’s brokerages engaged in naked short selling (offloading stock that had not been borrowed or purchased—phantom stock), likely on behalf of miscreant hedge funds looking to drive down prices. In fact, Madoff successfully lobbied the SEC to enact a rule that allowed market makers such as himself to engage in naked short selling. At the SEC, this rule was called “The Madoff Exception.”

At any rate, historic achievements tend to have overlapping protagonists. So it was no surprise to learn that one of Madoff’s most important “feeders” was Fairfield Greenwich Group, part-owned by a “prominent investor” named Philip Taub. Philip’s father, Said Taub, a “prominent investor” from Europe, had been an important “feeder,” along with Michael Milken’s cronies and other people affiliated with the Genovese Mafia, for the Investors Overseas Services Ponzi.

Another Madoff “feeder” (and a partner with Madoff in a brokerage called Cohmad) was a “prominent investor” named Robert Jaffe. Previously, while working for E.F. Hutton, Jaffe ran money for the Anguilo brothers, the Boston dons of the Genovese organized crime family.

Text

I dredged-up a link to Bernie' portfolio holdings: Bernard L Madoff Investment Securities Llc

Couple issues in common.

That's it. Tomorrow, I'm dumping every one of my Soprano dvd' on Ebay.

Madoff being Jewish it was a default expectation a story would emerge that he siphoned to money to Israel.

Too bad it isn't so. At least they'd have narrowed down where to look and there would be a greater chance of substantial recovery.

From a number of sources it appears the number Madoff supplied himself, $50 Billion is vastly inflated. He knew there wasn't much difference in the final outcome even it was a mere $50 Million. The number $15-20 Billion is closer. And how much is phantom earning promised but which never were there?

With the wildest mismanagement, kickbacks, and a premeditated Ponzi scheme, such a vast amount would have to be somewhere.

A large percentage got siphoned off by the fees paid for leads, and the vast majority would have been paid out by those in the game from early on taking their annual percentages or cashing out. Essentially people who should have been making 4-6% were getting 10-12% at the expense of the latecomers.

The entire thing gets really twisted when you factor in the money laundering proceeds involved. From all indicators a blend of Russian mob and the garden variety Wall Street predators were in the mix.

It will take years to sort out what really happened. And with the tentacles spreading to the SEC and purportedly into the state legislation, on top of with the glacial pace of the legal system Madoff himself will be close to 80 and with health and memory issues as it approaches resolution.

I'd bet there will be an unsatisfactory number of clear answers and more questions as this moves forward.


Mike F

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by ll__raine__ll

 

contributing factor. these banks lost money, lots of it, when they invested with him. There's also an issue of people using their madoff accounts as collateral on loans. Construction loans here in NYC are, apparently, now being reviewed as a result of the madoff collateral. Folks bought homes listing their madoff accounts as assets and revenue streams. The asset and the revenue stream no longer exists, the loan, once thought to be good loan, is now, possibly, sub-prime or a high risk loan, devaluing the asset on the banks' books.

Madoff's scam will send shock waves around the world. The SEC has been shown to be a total waste of space. Madoff could not have acted alone. It is impossible. Five seconds of glancing at that list should indicate just how big an operation this was. Each client received a statement that listed pages of transactions. Madoff, at one point, reported on one investor's statement, in one month, more options being written for one company than the entire market wrote that month. That's a lot of transactions and he was showing pages of transactions each month. He's going to be bringing down a whole lot of people and the little bit of faith we still have in our government, our economy and our markets could, very likely, crumble.

i only asked because that's what i wondered myself, right from the start. back when madoff was first arrested ... 50 billion was a hell of a lot of money and if it goes missing out of one nations economy ... hmm ... it's natural to think, 'no wonder they're going broke'.

on the other hand ... FF a few months to today and 50 billion US dollars ain't so much apparently. what to believe? what to believe?

I think the $50 Billion number is what Madoff threw out when charged.

An astronomical sum to flow through one man's hand. but is it the amount that disappeared? Hard to calculate.

Even if Madoff had been playing straight something like 30-40% would have lost on a crashing stock market.

The ones who got really burned were the clients who kept all their money in their accounts, and the more recent entrants. Those who got in and out early saw a 10-12% per annum return on their money. Where much of it was dissipated was to sources of new accounts, for conventional fees, etc.

Presumably the extended Madoff family, wife, sons, involved nieces and nephews, siphoned off something to the tune of a billion or more.

I'd guess most clients settled for taking their profits and letting their money 'ride' with such a good nesting place. Still, with such a great earning rate many must have at least broken even or benefitted

I'd guess the only way to measure what has been lost is to compare a standard placement of the same amounts with what actually happened to it.


Mike F

been a while since I've updated this but all I keep hearing about now that Bernie is going to accept a deal is that we should expect to hear about his mafia connections, his money laundering connections and the connections to at least one big bank that may have aided him.

Gee, the mob? old news.

I'll update and comment as the news comes out.

reply to post by Crakeur


This Madoff case is fascinating, but will we the regular main street people be able to learn everything that Madoff sing to the government or it will be keep secret as not to hurt any more the economy and investors confidence.


[edit on 10-3-2009 by marg6043]

I suspect many of us are waiting with great anticipation to hear "the story"
I know I am...only thing is will we ever really be told the facts?

I sincerely have my doubts. Personally, I think the fraud that showed it's ugly head in this Madoff Fraud Scandal is just the tip of the iceberg.

What lies beneath? Anyone else thinking that it would make the Soprano's seem boring?

Will be checking back often to hear updates.

[edit on 10-3-2009 by burntheships]

reply to post by burntheships


you might want to read from the beginning. there's italian mafia, there's russian mafia, possible drug cartel money laundering, loose women (woman) and other fun stuff

reply to post by Crakeur


Yes...thank you. I have read through all the pages! You know...as I am sure you do that the SEC could have busted him 10 years ago....at least.
Makes you wonder how deep the sx is!

reply to post by burntheships


The SEC is going to be totally revamped as a result of this. The mere concept of having someone who makes $150,000 policing someone who makes $15,000,000 or more is inane. All the SEC employees want is to get a job with the guys they are monitoring. The few SEC employees who really do want to uncover scams and who really do want to make sure the playing field is level are never going to succeed when their office is filled with people who are there for the resume padding and the potential contacts for better employment.


I think ole Bernie has been singing a tune since day one, playing coy, offering hints of what he might know and then backing off in order to make the best possible deal for his family. He knows he's either dead on the street or dead in prison but he wants to protect his family.

What he will do is give up everyone and everything in exchange for his sons' freedom, his wife's freedom etc. He's going to have argued that being the wife of Bernie Madoff is punishment enough but losing her home, her jewelry, her money etc is like rubbing salt in the wound. He'll say she suffered enough.

The boys? He wants them to live the rest of their lives without the stigma. They will never work in finance. They will probably be tagged with huge fines but they'll still have the money they stashed away.

Some mob figures will be implicated. Frank DiPiscali will go away with Bernie.

There will be talk of banks involvement. There will be talk of collusion that can never be proved. There will be lawsuits against every feeder fund. Criminal charges might be filed against a lot of the feeder fund guys. They'll all be settled and plea bargained out.

The fallout will take a while to fully be settled. The SEC revamping will be started quickly. Several resignations already happened. Expect more.

Expect books from a few people involved.


A tv movie perhaps.

The ending of the movie could, very well, be a montage like the one at the end of the Godfather. You see various Madoff family members being murdered with dates being posted underneath.

I really think that between the russians, the italians and, possibly, the south american drug cartels, there's going to be far too many people looking to take out Madoff's family. They'll get to them over time. I think that several years from now we'll hear the Bernie died in prison, either by suicide or from some other non-violent means but they will be covering up the truth. I think we'll hear about the others as they happen, years from now. Rest assured, the various criminal elements being discussed lately are the type that will not rest until they get their pound of flesh.

looks like we're waiting a bit longer for the story.

www.bloomberg.com...

their demand that he admit to a conspiracy, a charge that would require him to say he worked with others

who is he protecting? is it family? is it "family?"

seems to me he knows he's spending the rest of his life in prison so why bother helping the feds put his family away or in the ground?

reply to post by Crakeur


Subversive Government
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Ruth Madoff has maintained an account which mixed personal and fund monies. Investigators have determined that Ruth Madoff withdrew more than $15 million from a joint account just prior to his (Bernie) arrest! Nothing going on there.?

He does not have to admit to it. They know who what when. They can charge him with conspiracy and convict him even if he never admits it.
Question is...if not why?

Motley Fool co-founder Tom Gardner recently wrote an awesome article about how hundreds should go to jail, given all the bad actions that have been taking place, pointing out the outrageous pay awarded to CEOs who presided over Washington Mutual (now part of JPMorgan Chase (NYSE: JPM)), AIG (NYSE: AIG), and Merrill Lynch (now part of Bank of America (NYSE: BAC)). These are the folks who arguably presided over ruin and yet managed to run off with big bucks anyway.

www.fool.com...

apologies if any of that has already been posted

[edit on 12-3-2009 by burntheships]

Originally posted by Desolate Cancer



If you ask me we will find out that the SEC had people working for them that were heavily mobbed up and they were instrumental in keeping Madoff clear.

www.reuters.com...

If that is the case can you imagine the fallout from something like that.

If, in fact, the SEC was an accomplice, you will NOT ever hear of it. Criminals do not, usually, make it a habit to bring down other criminals. Our government, read 'criminals', is not about to expose criminality in their own 'club'. They usually try to make it appear that their enemies commited the crimes that they, in fact, did. So when they start spouting off about someone who they say did the crime, ask yourself if they are their enemies. Unfortunately, this is the way things actually work.

Ira Lee Sorkin, Madoff's attorney, also an investor, also the lawyer who helped get Avellino a slap on the wrist for the ponzi he was supposedly running (in truth he was a feeder fund for Bernie), has a rather interesting resume.

From 1984 to 1986, Mr. Sorkin was the Director of the SEC’s New York Office, where he supervised approximately 195 staff members, including lawyers, investigators, examiners, accountants, and clerical personnel. While he was the Director, his staff investigated and prosecuted numerous violations of the federal securities laws, including stock manipulation, insider trading, books and records, mutual funds fraud, sales of unregistered securities, fraud by investment advisors, and other violations of the statutes, rules, and regulations under the Securities Act of 1933, the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, the Investment Company Act of 1940, and the Investment Advisor Act of 1940. From 1968 to 1971, he was a trial attorney at the SEC.

www.dicksteinshapiro.com...

so an attorney who was paid to investigate the wall street weasels winds up at a law firm protecting the biggest weasel of them all.

Since leaving the SEC, Ira Sorkin’s private practice career has been devoted to defending the white-collar criminals he once investigated. Sorkin defended Robert Frust, a managing director of Merrill Lynch, for his role in the Enron scandal

americanaffairs.suite101.com...

Proof positive that the sec is filled with people who want nothing more than to be on the other side of the fence.

Sorkin's parents, apparently, had an account with Bernie. That account was closed and the funds distributed in 2007. Is it any wonder Sorkin, who worked at the SEC and had family money invested with Madoff, would want to represent him? He probably knew what was going on. Hell, he represented Avellino in 91 and he had to have known that Avellino was operating a ponzi scheme because he plea bargained the case and they did offer to return everyone's money as it was, apparently, invested with Madoff. Who runs a ponzi scheme and actually invests the money? Nobody. That's who. So, this $1000 an hour laywer had to have known that Avellino was nothing more than a feeder fund for Bernie.

How much did Sorkin get to protect Madoff back in 91? How much trouble could he get into if it comes out that he was paid by Bernie to protect him from this? Disbarred is small time compared to the cases that could, possibly, be reopened, no?

Of course, nobody will go after Sorkin. They got Bernie. They want to make it seem like they are doing more so they will go after the feeders and the hedge funds. They'll shake up the SEC to make it look like they are fixing the problems.

And that will be that.

Crakeur you sound like a private investigator with all the information you have gathered already.

Madoffs secrets will probably remind secret as we know the fate of most Washington insiders when they go against the people they serve.

The usual commit Suicide.

Still today he will be plea bargain and as for what I see it will be up to the judge to made the concessions.

Still I don't put to much faith as what will be leaked to the media.

reply to post by marg6043


he's not plea bargaining. He's refusing to confess to the conspiracy charge. By doing this he is clining to the I worked Alone story. As I said earlier (I think it was here), there's no point in plea bargaining. He will die in prison. The only unknown factor is when. He will either die from old age, illness or he'll be taken care of by one of the various criminal elements he worked with or ripped off.

The only reason for him to plea bargain would be to protect his family and "the family" and, it seems, they aren't allowing him much room there. The criminal elements will, eventually, mete out the punishment they seek. That's my guess.

Over time, we'll read about it.

reply to post by Crakeur


I see now, I just heard that in the news, you are so right, he is protecting a lot of criminals when he did this, but I guess the treats against his family life most have been very scary for him to decide than rather than talk to spend over 100 years in jail.

Incredible, I wish we could find out all the littler details.