If We Have Free Will...., page 2
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reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 04:05 AM by miriam0566
Originally posted by DantesLost
Why are people persecuted for their choice of lifestyle,the things they teach,the things they learn,the things they watch/listen to etc etc?


christians are not told to persecute people of other faiths. the worst behavior a christian is told to show would be to shun someone who knowingly lives contrary to god´s laws.

but its interesting that you should bring up with discussion. personally ive always found this point obvious.

usually its presented to prove free will. ¨if noone has freewill, then why would god punish you for things you were programmed to do wrong?¨

the simple answer to your question is that there are consequences. yes, god gave you the divine right to choose but this doesnt mean that you have the divine right to be shielded from the consequences of your actions.

take a simple scenario. a child looking at a kettle that is boiling water. the father says not to touch it.

the child has the freedom to disobey. he has a mind of his own. however, he may lack understanding of the situation not being fully aware as to WHY his father told him no. if he touches that kettle in a hot spot, he will get hurt. if he doesnt understand, sometimes he simply has to have faith that his father is forbidding him for his own good.

how does this apply to god?

well, a majority of the suffering of this world is a result of mankinds inability to understand the consequences of its actions. sometimes its on a personal level and sometimes is so far removed we dont think about it.

for example, god says not to fornicate. most people look at this commandment like its ridiculas, however, if you should find yourself in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy or discovery of an std, alot of people find themselves asking god ¨why?¨ both these things can be very traumatic to go through.

another example is respect for the environment. i was watching CNN the other day that they were talking about a smelting plant in peru that was causing problems with some of the children in the town. the smelting plant was capable of fixing the problem but for some reason they didnt want to. this is a small case but this kind of thing happens all over the world. then people wonder why the climate of the world is being so quirky.

its simple cause and effect really. god is not being a jerk, ranting and raving about what you shouldnt do. his laws are there because he cares about your well being. again you have the freedom to take advantage of that, but you cant expect god to shield you from the consequences if you dont.


reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 05:11 AM by Iggus
reply to post by DantesLost


If you notice it was a question that I put to you, so your response is to ask one in return. You also seem to want to go down the extreme path that you derided in one of my posts In answer to your question, no I don't think that I have the right to tell people what to do, but I do think that God does. In the same way that I think that I have the right to tell my children what to do and to teach them how to behave.

Yet my question was why should this be the case? Why shouldn't peoples free will be removed from them, why is it sacrosanct? On what basis do you think this? I hold that mans intrinsic value is to be derived from their special creation by God but why do think that people have any value?

The basic question that you must answer, not to me but to yourself, is upon what foundation, what principle, do you believe that there is any basis for morality or human worth as shown through free will.


reply posted on 26-12-2008 @ 06:39 PM by DantesLost
badmedia

Thats a very good post.A star for you.




miriam0566

christians are not told to persecute people of other faiths. the worst behavior a christian is told to show would be to shun someone who knowingly lives contrary to god´s laws.

but its interesting that you should bring up with discussion. personally ive always found this point obvious.


It is obvious....for some.
There are many Christians who cannot see the wood for the trees though.


the simple answer to your question is that there are consequences. yes, god gave you the divine right to choose but this doesnt mean that you have the divine right to be shielded from the consequences of your actions.


I never said that we should.Its all part and parcel of free will.




Iggus


Yet my question was why should this be the case? Why shouldn't peoples free will be removed from them, why is it sacrosanct? On what basis do you think this? I hold that mans intrinsic value is to be derived from their special creation by God but why do think that people have any value?


From the Abrahamic faiths pov,its in Holy Scripture.No man has the right to take it from another.From the humanism pov,every single person has rights as an individual,we all of our own minds that are capable of making choices.The preciousness,freedom and dignity of the individual person is sacrosanct.

I don't think people have value,i know they do.You think man's value comes from being God's choice creation,yet you forget that for millennia Angels held the very same position.I say that all the things humans can achieve and can experience is what gives us value.The very fact that we are alive and have our own mind,our own will,is what gives us value.


[edit on 26-12-2008 by DantesLost]


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 06:41 AM by miriam0566
reply to post by DantesLost


i ask out of curiosity because i sense there is more to your questions then i can see, do you feel that the preaching of a christian somehow disrespects your freewill?


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 10:01 AM by DantesLost
reply to post by miriam0566


Not at all.

Its those that go beyond preaching that i disagree with.And what i mean by that is those who are aggressive and,in some cases,hateful.

To me that is not the right way to preach,especially when its followed by,'but Jesus loves you.'

A person who preaches in such a manner has no right to speak of love,especially the love of their god or Saviour.

I feel the same way about any religion that does that,not just Christianity.



[edit on 27-12-2008 by DantesLost]


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 02:27 PM by Iggus
reply to post by DantesLost


Thanks for answering my question.

The real point though is on what basis does humanism stand? How and why do people hold an intrinsic value? If we are just a product of random chance then why do we matter any more than any other animal or indeed any thing in the universe. We are surely no more special than a beetle or a star.

My basis is upon an outside objective, that of relating mans worth to Gods, the humanist must rely upon the idea that man just 'is' of some intrinsic worth yet provides no reason why I should accept this worth at all. Just knowing isn't allowed for christians to answer about their faith, so why is it OK for others to just know that human life is worth something?

The central truth is that we all accept that human life has intrinsic value, but where does that ultimately come from, and why is it not present in all life?

(If we say that all ife has the same intrinsic worth then we should certainly not eat meat, use animals for medical research, keep pets and should be as willing for a man to die to save an animal as for an animal to die to save a humans life)

Thanks, and I hope you had a good Christmas


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 02:31 PM by drevill
reply to post by DantesLost


i do not belive in free will, i believe everything is under the control of God, including those that go to Hell and for the Glory of God in the end. not P.C i know but its my own opinion.

Re Hell i do not believe it is a literal endless torture though.

David



reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 05:31 PM by Elisha4Yah
Originally posted by DantesLost

LeoVirgo


According to the Bible, God seems to already konw everything.


Thats a debate that could last forever.lol.


Why? You began the thread topic on the precept of the Bible/Scripture. Here is what you wrote as a reminder: I took the liberty of underlining the basis for your topic>

Scripture tells us that we have free will,that we have a choice to live as we want.It directs people to choose the righteous path,but it does not force people onto it.To do so would mean that there is no free will.


So now that we've got that squared away...Do you believe in what "Scripture tells us"? Or do you use it as a tool to start vain debates on a Conspiracy forum?


As for the question you're asking, why? There are individuals that are not "Scripture" believers that still have values, morals and self-restraint. You are sort of posing that anyone who is unrighteous is persecuted by people that follow the guidelines of Scripture; but here in America...no one is "persecuted for being unrighteous" Learn what the meaning of persecution means and learn each individual situation pertaining to acts of rape, homosexuality, murder ect...in laymen's terms; murder and rape and horrible acts are not even in the category of free-will or "persecuted for unrighteousness." Those deeds are in a category of wickedness and anyone who has been in a situation where someone they knew or loved was raped or murdered-be they Scripture believers/adherers or not-is crying out for justice.

I'm convinced to say you must not have ever had to witness such an act toward someone you know and actually care about, otherwise you would not be so close-minded and cold as you are. I see through you, that you are like the rest of your brothers/sisters that accuse the Bible/Scripture and ultimately GOD for wickedness whilst you don't bother to thank Him for your sorry self-absorbed rotten piece of flesh.

There ya go...I'm giving you another reason to blame Christianity and the Bible for all the things you feel are wrong with your little world. You will get the world you seek and you will desire to taste one drop of water from the Bible you hated and wanted out of society and you will continually thirst with the fire unquenched. But hey, you reap what you sow and that only leaves you to blame



Sincerely,
Elisha


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 05:59 PM by DantesLost
Iggus.

You're welcome.It may take a while but i do try and answer all questions.

Christmas has been loud and as hectic as always.lol.Yours?


The real point though is on what basis does humanism stand? How and why do people hold an intrinsic value? If we are just a product of random chance then why do we matter any more than any other animal or indeed any thing in the universe. We are surely no more special than a beetle or a star.


Because it is in our nature.
Some people call that a gift from a god or gods.
And its our arrogance that makes us say we matter more than anything else in the universe.


Just knowing isn't allowed for christians to answer about their faith, so why is it OK for others to just know that human life is worth something?


But you do just know.
You cannot prove the existence of God,but you know he's real.And that knowing comes from faith.

Some people do not need that kinda faith in their lives.They find fulfillment in the world around them.And i don't mean material things.


(If we say that all ife has the same intrinsic worth then we should certainly not eat meat, use animals for medical research, keep pets and should be as willing for a man to die to save an animal as for an animal to die to save a humans life)


So,plants have no worth,they are alive aren't they?

I enjoy eating meat,and have no problem with animals dying to feed us.What i do have a problem with is how these animals are treated.Just because we're going to eat them doesn't mean we have to be cruel to them and kill them in inhumane ways.

I'm all for risking life to save that of another's.




drevill


i do not belive in free will, i believe everything is under the control of God, including those that go to Hell and for the Glory of God in the end. not P.C i know but its my own opinion.


On the contrary,quite a lot of people believe that,or something similar.
Not just Christians but Buddhists,Hindus and Muslims too.




Elisha4Yah

I said it was a debate that could last forever because people argue over what is actually meant by god knowing everything.


Do you believe in what "Scripture tells us"? Or do you use it as a tool to start vain debates on a Conspiracy forum?


That would be the former.
And what is vain about this debate?


As for the question you're asking, why? There are individuals that are not "Scripture" believers that still have values, morals and self-restraint.


And?
They are not the ones who use religion as a weapon are they?


Learn what the meaning of persecution means


Yeah,i posted that on page one.And your laymens terms are incorrect.


I see through you, that you are like the rest of your brothers/sisters that accuse the Bible/Scripture and ultimately GOD for wickedness whilst you don't bother to thank Him for your sorry self-absorbed rotten piece of flesh.


Ahh,the old,'lets tar everyone with the same brush.' How very open minded of you.


There ya go...I'm giving you another reason to blame Christianity and the Bible for all the things you feel are wrong with your little world. You will get the world you seek and you will desire to taste one drop of water from the Bible you hated and wanted out of society and you will continually thirst with the fire unquenched. But hey, you reap what you sow and that only leaves you to blame


Why blame the Bible when it is you who doesn't even have the common decency to debate me without insulting me.Did the Bible make you do that? No,your own arrogant,self-righteous attitude did.

And could you point out the place where I said I blamed the Bible & Christianity for all of my problems.Coz I can't find it.Oh,and find the post where I said that I blamed god for all of life's wickedness,coz i can't find that either.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 06:21 PM by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by DantesLost


This is because the Bible and other religious texts are made up as templates of how the Church wants society to function, in agreement with the Government that helped influence that particular church and or vice versa. If anyone is persecuted for their beliefs and actually believe in what others say about it "being evil" or not conforming then they have major problems. This is because they are either not a strong enough person mentally speaking to argue their stance or that they are not meant to be a leader to those around them because they are not intelligent enough to express themselves and change the mindset of those around them.

Actual "free will" only comes to those who are strong enough to understand all ramifications of their actions as well as potential consequences of said actions, if there are ramifications or consequences. It of course depends on the action, because shooting someone will end someone's elses life and land you in jail while being allergic to peanuts will only kill yourself when you pop them in your mouth. Most texts like the Bible were created as a moral guideline as well as template for actions that were against the society of the time it was written and or written about, and most contemporary thinkers do not know how to understand or comprehend and or translate the original text which is usually written in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, which was then translated into English or some other language.

Just changing or misinterpeting a jot or title (pronouced tit el, not title) in the Hebrew or Greek itself does not only change just the one word, nor the one sentence but the entire meaning of the paragraph and entire chapters meaning, so that this type of thing was not mistakingly done during the times of translation, for instance in the Middle Ages, or also known as the Dark Ages, because of reading and learning being outlawed and only meant for the Church and Government (read up on your history, before you bother to state I'm wrong, I know it well) let alone the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church changing the meaning as they saw fit to mold society as they wanted it kept under certains sets of beliefs.

This is called a control mechanism. I took Greek in highschool instead of Spanish, from a Greek teacher who knew both Greek and Hebrew. Our classes were almost as much about the contextual meanings behind the words and language as the spelling and pronunciations. My Greek teacher taught me to translate a Bible from the original Greek or Hebrew you needed not only the understanding of the language but of the society itself that wrote the book as well as the differences between each culture that had an influence on that culture. Basically said you would need an entire library of books the size of the Pentagon, or that knowledge, to translate the book from its meaning into a different meaning by changing it to a different language, like English, because the translations are needed to be changed in such a way so as to not change the original meaning and intent behind the writing.

Now, having said all that, do most churches teach any of that, let alone a neutral meaning behind their Bible or other religious text?

The answer is simple.

No, they do not.

So, you by listening to a preacher, or whoever, are listening to that person's interpretations, and or beliefs, in how they were raised, or how they want to shape society.

By the way, this is the short, sweet, and simple version of this explanation from me.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 08:09 PM by Elisha4Yah
reply to post by DantesLost


Let's get unconfused shall we?




Here is what you posted:
Originally posted by DantesLost
Why are non-believers/sinners persecuted?

Why are people persecuted for their choice of lifestyle,the things they teach,the things they learn,the things they watch/listen to etc etc?


Who and where are people "persecuted" for (I'll number them)

1: Choice of lifestyle
2: Things they teach
3: Things they learn
4: Things they watch
5: Things they listen to..etc

Give examples please of real life scenarios for each situation you list where you witness persecution(s).


Scripture tells us that we have free will,that we have a choice to live as we want.It directs people to choose the righteous path,but it does not force people onto it.To do so would mean that there is no free will.


Again I will have to ask you for Scripture references/passages to all of what you claim "Scripture tells us".


To persecute people for expressing their divine right is to go against the Scripture.To say that you have freedom to believe but others should not be allowed to disbelieve,is to go against the Scripture.Those who would force their religious views and morals onto others are taking away their free will.


What may I ask...do you even consider a "divine right"? I as a believer in the Holy Bible Son of Yahweh, have never ever in my life even thought much less uttered that I/we human beings have some "divine right". I would more or less say it's a "human" right to watch what you want to, listen, learn and teach and live how & what you want.

Do you believe in the Words in the Bible? Are you aware that through and through the Scriptures we/believers are taught and comforted that this "worldly" kingdom is not our eternal abode? Are you aware that we are comforted in the knowing that this world is and always has been at enmity with God, therefore it will also be at enmity with us who follow His Word/Son? Are you aware that we are told that evil would rise so high as to reach the heavens? So who are you saying are "the" persecutors? I, myself could careless what you do, how you do it because I know that we are all subject to the ways of the world, whether we like it, want it, or not. I choose to live the best way I can in a world at complete odds with the Creator and Saviour of it..bizzare even to have to write that, because it makes the least sense of all things to me in this upside down world we live in.

You need to be about 99% less judgmental of the "general" populace and simply live the best way you know how without constantly looking for a cause to state what you deem unfair. I used to think Christians were the biggest whiners, but now I see that it is the non-believing world that are so dog on whiny.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 09:18 PM by DantesLost
SpartanKingLeonidas


Actual "free will" only comes to those who are strong enough to understand all ramifications of their actions as well as potential consequences of said actions, if there are ramifications or consequences.


Hmmm,I'd have to agree with that.Why? Coz its true.lol.


Just changing or misinterpeting a jot or title (pronouced tit el, not title) in the Hebrew or Greek itself does not only change just the one word, nor the one sentence but the entire meaning of the paragraph and entire chapters meaning,


I have argued that point many times over the years.Some people just can't seem to grasp such a simple thing though.


So, you by listening to a preacher, or whoever, are listening to that person's interpretations, and or beliefs, in how they were raised, or how they want to shape society.


Thats something else I've argued.Many people think religious leaders can tell no lies and do no wrong.




Elisha4Yah

Too difficult for you to look on page one was it.

Persecuted:to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment,esp.because of religion,race,beliefs etc;harass persistently.

Now,religious groups,do they or do they not behave in such a manner towards what children learn,to what teachers teach,to what people listen to,to what they read,to what they watch,to what they wear? (and thats not just children for the last 4 points,they also dictate to adults) Do they not dictate towards people who don't live a lifestyle that suits their faith,do they not dictate how they should conduct their sexual relationships? And in doing this are they speaking for their own flocks,or everyone?


Again I will have to ask you for Scripture references/passages to all of what you claim "Scripture tells us".


Why?
Do you not know them or can't you be bothered to look for yourself?

Deuteronomy 30:19
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.
God makes it clear what happens if you choose to follow him or not.This is free will.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
This verse speaks loud and clear.This is free will.

Just a cpl to start you off.The Bible is full of such verses.


What may I ask...do you even consider a "divine right"? I as a believer in the Holy Bible Son of Yahweh, have never ever in my life even thought much less uttered that I/we human beings have some "divine right". I would more or less say it's a "human" right to watch what you want to, listen, learn and teach and live how & what you want.


That which is made possible by a divine being or beings.


After studying religion,theology and faith for almost 30yrs I do believe I have come across some of your 'are you aware' questions.But I can't be certain so I'll have to double check.



You need to be about 99% less judgmental of the "general" populace and simply live the best way you know how without constantly looking for a cause to state what you deem unfair.


Very true.I shall follow your example on how to be less judgmental.


I used to think Christians were the biggest whiners, but now I see that it is the non-believing world that are so dog on whiny.


Those who question religion are non-believers eh?
Oh well,must be just another lesson in being less judgmental of the 'general' populace.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 09:39 PM by Elisha4Yah
reply to post by DantesLost


DantesLost- fitting name btw...I'm going to take advantage of my free-will and end the discussion with you because I gave you the open door to respond maturely, but you not only did not respond in a mature manner but also sarcastically with words like "eh"? Grow up. You know you would not talk to a person this way without that computer interceding for you.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 09:47 PM by DantesLost
reply to post by Elisha4Yah


DantesLost- fitting name btw


Thats is why i chose it.

...I'm going to take advantage of my free-will and end the discussion with you because I gave you the open door to respond maturely, but you not only did not respond in a mature manner but also sarcastically with words like "eh"? Grow up.


Is that the real reason,or just an excuse?
I have treated you with the same courtesy you have shown me,and the term 'eh' happens to be part of my local dialect.

You know you would not talk to a person this way without that computer interceding for you.


I would respond in exactly the same manner even if we were sitting face to face.I don't change how I speak to people just because I'm on the computer.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 10:01 PM by Elisha4Yah
...I'm going to take advantage of my free-will and end the discussion with you because I gave you the open door to respond maturely, but you not only did not respond in a mature manner but also sarcastically with words like "eh"? Grow up.


Originally posted by DantesLostIs that the real reason,or just an excuse?
I have treated you with the same courtesy you have shown me,and the term 'eh' happens to be part of my local dialect.



That is the honest to goodness "real" reason. Hence the reason I went ahead and went back to your original post to try and get to the bottom of what you're feeling is wrong with respect to the topic.


I would respond in exactly the same manner even if we were sitting face to face.I don't change how I speak to people just because I'm on the computer.


That's unfortunate then. Obviously the topic is important to you otherwise you would not have posted it. And obviously I want to understand what you are seeing and witnessing that I'm not seeing and/or witnessing. There isn't anyone at all trying to tell me how to live my life nor my childs life at school; not to say that as an adult we are not given advise but no one is forcing their views on me, nor am I forcing mine on them. Whatever I deem inappropriate I simply disregard or investigate further. So are you being forced to live against your own free will and choice?

Please restrain your sarcasm so we can discuss this. I will give you the very same respect in return. Pretend that we are sitting outside on my porch or something and having a worthy discussion on something important to you


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 10:14 PM by DantesLost
reply to post by Elisha4Yah



Please restrain your sarcasm so we can discuss this. I will give you the very same respect in return. Pretend that we are sitting outside on my porch or something and having a worthy discussion on something important to you


That i can do.

But hopefully you can wait til tomorrow...well,later today,as its past 4AM here and I have to up for work in about 4hrs.Good job I don't need lots of sleep.lol.

Til then.


reply posted on 27-12-2008 @ 11:59 PM by Elisha4Yah
reply to post by DantesLost


Awesome and thank you. I do look forward to understanding further what you're claiming & I just realised you're not in America, so that might also be a factor as to why I'm not witnessing what you are regarding forceful views. One thing I'd like to remind us both of is that in a forum everyone is or can be quite forceful with their views and opinions, that natural considering the location of discussion etc...but I don't include that as a part of evidence to what you're stating, I'm sure you don't either, just wanted to get that out.
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