Occultism is not Satanism

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry, neither occultism nor any other religion began before in the beginning.

We already established that, did we not? You eventually defined "in the beginning" as "in the beginning of everything" rather than "in the beginning" according to the Bible. Nothing - not Occultism, not religion - existed before the universe came into existence. But Judaism, Christianity and Islam - the three Abrahamic faiths - were only identified by man several thousand years ago, whereas forms of Occultism were practiced at least 40,000 years ago.

Why does it matter which one is older? Would'nt it make more sense to search for the one that is true? Like the fact that astrology or other occultic practices teach that all the details of your life were determined by the position of your stars at the time of your birth. Or the random drawing of tarot cards? Man talk about loosing your free will! Just a thought!

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I'd also like to go ahead and take a show of hands as to who here has read Crowley? Much of Crowley's work, the "foundation" of Satanism, supposedly, has nothing at all to do with Lucifer. The majority of Book 4, for instance, is a guide for yoga and meditation to reach enlightenment.

Yeah, sounds real scary, right?

I’ve read a lot of Crowley and would say that he is not so much the basis for Satanism but is the basis for a lot of modern Western occultism, especially if you consider the Golden Dawn from which he drew a lot of inspiration. Crowley’s “system” is called Thelema and is quite different from “Satanism,” which is generally considered the work of Anton LaVey – that is, Church of Satan style Satanism, which is basically atheistic and is more of a reactionary movement against Christanity. They use rituals and such but don’t subscribe to any “magickal” or spiritual ideas. There are Satanic sects that focus on Satan as an actual deity but they seem to be inspired more by the old horned gods than just provoking Christians.

reply to post by Skyfloating
Jesus spoke in parables in order to conceal the truth .So technichly he used occult sayings!

Thanks, SF, for another great thread. As others have said, I think this is a very important distinction and it would be nice if more Christians (or followers of any organized religion) could take a more open minded view of our “occult” practices. I think part of it is due to the fact that, by definition, Christians are generally required to believe that their path to salvation is the only valid way…and thus all others are indeed considered Satanic even if that is not the intent of the practitioners (who, they will tell you, have just been misled by Satan.) Maybe there was also some prejudice in the early Church against the Kabalah and Jewish mystics (not to mention those pesky Gnostic Christians…)

(BTW, off topic but I like your new av! Very sad that SGA has followed SG1 into cancellations…but the gate is still a beautiful sight!)

reply to post by Bnmssnit


Jesus spoke in parables to reveal the truth.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Meh - occultism may not be "evil", but it's not exactly real either. If people want to run around worshiping elves and fairies, I suppose that's their right but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

Right! If people want to run around believing in sons of God that run around and die and come back and walk on water and make water into wine, that's their right too, and doesn't make it any less stupid.

This is a great thread!

I understand your point of view, especially as one who does see some authority in the bible. However, I just wanted to further add, non-cannonical texts also pin-point that the occultic practice is a forbidden art. Please read 1 Enoch. It talks about how the fallen angels (nephilim/whose progeny were giants) taught these arts to the people. These "fallen angels/ufos/whatever"" learned this from somewhere whether it be from the heavens or another planet. It's possible that their progeny(if real) were the original sun-gods found all over the world. This may be explanation to the origins of the occullt.

P.S. I am sorry, this was meant to be a reply to saint4God, I am new to ats and a little technologically inept still.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by pickles123]

reply to post by shipovfools


I think that you are incorrect in saying that Christians are required to believe thier path to salvation is the only way. Here is the official teaching on this subject from Vatican Council II:

"Eternal salvation is open to those who, through no fault of thier own, do not know Christ and His Church but seek God with a sincere heart, and under the inspiration of thier conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the aids necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on thier part, have not yet reached an explicit belief in God, but strive to lead a good life, under the influence of God's grace."

So its actually the fundamental Christians or protestants who think that Christians are the only ones that are saved and no one else.

In regards to the Occult, even I as a Catholic know that the early Church indeed practiced some kind of occultism. For example some popes such as Sixtus IV, Julius II, Leo X, and Paul III consulted astrologers for advice. It was not untill later when Christian doctrine further developed that it was concluded that astrology and occult ideas go against ones free will.

reply to post by crmanager


Google Christoga - the 100% real, 100% ree-donk-u-lous attempt to make the scary occult practice of 'yoga' safe for god fearing xtians.

One might say that it's just the 'business' of christianity to worm its way into every nook and cranny of the pagan/secular/free thinking world.

You know the drill, just slap a fish or a cross on something and make it 'safe' for consumption.

It worked great back in the day and brought us Easter and Christmas, and who doesn't like a few extra days off from work?

Nowadays, the heavy handed rebranding of stuff that is, in many cases, older than the idea of Jesus is just bad form. Lighten up, Francis.

Take heavy metal, hip hop, comic books and any and all pop culture trends and neuter them and put 'em in the MegaChurch gift shop.

News flash - putting the term 'Christian' before anything other than the actual Bible is the reverse Midas touch. It turns instantly to crap.

reply to post by nuclearman
Jesus spoke in parables to reveal thr truth to Them that had eyes to see and ears to hear which unfortunately left some out even he acknowledged that

reply to post by Skyfloating


Skyfloating - do you know of any really good reference material on the Rosicrucians?

everything I find seems very - controlled

I get why - but, most of the information I find seems to be variations on the same information - repeating itself over and over again

I'd just like to better understand where they fit into history and how they relate to other belief systems, etc. I know there are connections to Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Freemasonry - but just want to understand better why they're separate - and how they're similar, etc.

if you want to read up on the Masons - no problem.

I haven't been able to find anything that goes much deeper or farther than what I've been able to read on Wikipedia - even the books I've found essentially all have the same information

maybe that's all there is? :-)

Originally posted by Angry Potato
This threasd is so death metal.

Right? I could sit here for hours just reading and rereading all ofthese posts, I have no need to post my own opinion, however many I may have, because chances are, Someone has already touched grounds on everything I'd have to say.
Silence is golden, Duct tape is silver...
Professing to be wise, they became fools...

Very Good Thread

This goes out to the OP and those who have replied here. Wise words from all sides.




[edit on 22-12-2008 by Sanity Lost]

Just a thought here.

Has anyone considered that the God they worship could be the the bibllical "god of this world" aka Satan. True teachings have been so distorted, imo, that the so called Satan could be the one responsible for the current fundamental christianity that allows no one to think outside the bible.

I recall, when I was a Christian, thinking "Wow,it is all here, I don't even have to think, just do what the bible says". So why was I given a mind to think?

I was also in a class once where I mentioned to the teacher (and I had read the new testament many times) that I had read just what he said in the book of Thomas. I was immediately reprimanded and told we do not read that. I never told him I got it from the church library.

This goes on all over the world in many religions. So what is true? It is up to us to find out by not closing our mind to any possiblity. We read, listen, learn and put the pieces together. Well, at least that is what I do.

I do not mean to offend any Christians here. I respect where you are in life because I believe we are all where we are meant to be at this point in time. And the Christians on this site are more open than most to discover truth.

There was a time when I said okay, I see this, but I will not give up Jesus. Alas, I finally did. But it was necessary to release the conditioning that had taken place since childhood. Not easy. And I am not saying anyone else should do that. But as long as you fear reading anything outside or in deference to the bible, you will never know the truth.

reply to post by Skyfloating


of course occultism isnt satanism occultism is just the belif that their is things like alchemy and sorcery not satanism

Originally posted by crmanager
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

I find it interesting how people defend non-Christian values yet the Christian in this site is scoffed at and ridiculed as stupid and un-informed when compared to you "occultists."

As a Christian, I believe Jesus was an occultist.

I have NEVER heard a person who practices yoga called an "occultist." I am not denying your experiences though.

The very first thing Aleister Crowley touches upon in Book 4 is Yoga. Yoga really is the gateway drug to Magic. Or Magick, if you want the "new aeon" spin on it. And Yes, I know Aleister Crowley is, most likely, the furthest thing from the Kybalion, which is one of THE best and most ABSTRACT descriptions of the funamental principles of existence, in my most humble opinion.

My point was to show how integral yoga is to the practitioner of magic.

If the word offends you then simply scoff back at the un-informed, it is a word.

Just realize how similar your teachings are to Christianity.

You seek higher power.
You seek to become one with the Universe.
You seek passage to a higher plane.
You seek peace through meditation.

Sounds like any Sunday at a Christian church.

Actually, yes. When it comes to Magic. It's very similar to studying the Christ. However, it's pretty much nothing like the creationist/literalist version of Christianity. To the Magician, life is like the parables Jesus spoke. Each was an allegory with many different meanings, all intended to teach liberation of the soul.

Much as you have church on Sunday, many occultists enjoy convocations at ttheir local Rosicrucian Lodges on the proper day of the week for such studies, or perhaps the magician will enjoy gnostic mass, where he/she will devour the equinox and utter the truest words that "There is no part of me that is not of the Gods", still other occultists will find themselves in an open field on a glorious day, singing the hymns of their youth as they take communion with nature.

However, not all psychonauts are seeking peace through meditation. Some are literally trying to find armaments of war, but end up finding peace, because that is where the path typically leads one. Even when the path leads through much frustration, the end result is very typically one of salvation. Except of course for the "black brothers who build their fortress on the edge of the abyss and slowly cede their existence to entropy".

I once saw it written in a book that the Mystic is one who is driven to LOVE God, and that an Occlutist is driven to KNOW God.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Skyfloating - do you know of any really good reference material on the Rosicrucians?

everything I find seems very - controlled

The Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis

I get why - but, most of the information I find seems to be variations on the same information - repeating itself over and over again

Have you read any of the books by H.Spencer Lewis? They are great. You won't find the actual Rosicrucian teachings in any book however.

If you become a member of AMORC, then you may receive monographs which lead you through the process of discovering the Rosicrucian teachings yourself. You will go through with a class of folks.

I'd just like to better understand where they fit into history and how they relate to other belief systems, etc.

The Rosicrucians are non-sectarian. You will find people who belong to many different faiths in the Order.

I know there are connections to Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Freemasonry - but just want to understand better why they're separate - and how they're similar, etc.

The Rosicrucian Order of today came back into the public light around 1900-1909. Spencer Lewis , through a string of interesting encounters, ended up with the charter of the Rosicrucian Order. He received it from FUDOSI.

Way back when though, there was the Fama Fraternitatis. Which supposedly was written by Sir Francis Bacon, who was the Imperator of the order at that time.

if you want to read up on the Masons - no problem.

I haven't been able to find anything that goes much deeper or farther than what I've been able to read on Wikipedia - even the books I've found essentially all have the same information

maybe that's all there is? :-)

Well, for the most part, Rosicrucians respect the Order. As I mentioned, their teachings are not written in any books. That's more than simply a quizzical motto, thats quite literal.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
As a Christian, I believe Jesus was an occultist.

Good point.

And at any rate, what he said in his day was considered total blasphemy, and he upset a lot of religious people. The Bible tells you that much itself.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Why does it matter which one is older?

It only matters in as much as the truth matters.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Would'nt it make more sense to search for the one that is true?

Yes, absolutely. And this is precisely why followers of the Abrahamic religions are in the vast majority - because despite archaeological evidence strongly confirming that there were other spiritual beliefs before theirs, they still choose to follow relatively new religions - believing them to be true. And that's fine with me. But what isn't fine is the denial of historical fact.