I would just like to point out that there seems to be a lot of hypocritical lumping of all Christians together, which is somewhat understandable since it is my experience that a majority of my fellow "Christians" are extremely judgemental and closed minded. Yet when someone makes a broad statement lumping all the various forms of Earth worship, meditation, occultism, and all of the other so called "self worship" type of beliefs together with "satanism" or "witchcraft" it is responded back to with the same sort of closed minded judgement.

Ravenshadow said:
"Satanism is part of the Occult, but the Occult is not made up of only Satanism, and not all Occultists are Satanists."

I completely agree with this and it can also be applied to Christians and catholics. A lot of people look at the catholic church as the belief system of all of Christianity. This is exactly the same as a Christian calling occultists satanists.

Ravenshadow further said:
"The Roman Catholic Church has been considered part of the Occult, as has Cabala."

I agree with this also. I think the true Christian gets lumped into the cult of catholocism as well as these judgemental fanatics and the whole of CHristianity is viewed with understandable contempt. It would be my opinion (as well as the Bible's) that the majority of "Christianity" is a selfish, judgemental group who are told their beliefs and are either too busy or too lazy to actually study the Bible for themselves and cross reference the actual translation of the original Hebrew, Greek and so on. I was raised a Roman Catholic myself and when I actually read the Bible I realized that what we were practicing in church had very little to do with the Bible and was more about the power of the papacy. After years of studying other beliefs (including the whole Darwin religion), I became a non-denominational Christian.
The small amount of true Christians on the planet will not judge anyone because they become as guilty as the one they judge and they know that the Bible has several references to how sinful judging others is. It is my opinion that when a "Christian" lumps all of the occultism and satanism etc. beliefs together, it is likely because of something they were told about how evil it all is.
Back to topic (sorry for the rant) - In reality, and speaking for myself mostly and I believe several other Christians, the whole occultism, satanism, luciferianism, etc. being lumped together is not saying that they are all an evil umbrella of satan or lucifer, they are merely beliefs that take our focus off of the one true God. Not that we can't be friends with them and love them, we just can't practice a belief that takes the focus off of God.

Allow me to disagree, as one who has MUCH experience in the Occult.

I considered myself a New Ager for many many years (over 10)

I was into Wicca, astrology, channeling, psychics, ascension, lightwork, ascended masters, angels, soulmates, the Ashtar Command and Galactic Federation - YOU NAME IT.

I left no stone uncovered - EXCEPT of course for Satanism, because I wouldn't touch anything I considered to be evil.

Well I'VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU NEW AGE FOLKS. No, you may not DIRECTLY be involved in Satanism - I know you're not. I was one of you. I know you're good folk who mean well.

BUT, and this is a big BUT - you have no idea the doorways you are opening up as you immerse yourself in New Age concepts. You are literally inviting ATTACK from Luciferian influences just by your involvement in all things New Age - even if you are a good person who does not intend to be involved in Satanism or anything evil.

HOW DO I KNOW THIS? Because my best friend and I were ATTACKED SPIRITUALLY and psychologically by Luciferian entities at the height of our New Age involvement (specifically when we were Ashtar Command believers).

Just because you are an Occultist who has not experienced what we did - does not mean that you won't. You are VULNERABLE in ways you cannot see. Protection protocols did NOT help us.

We learned the TRUTH, that only Yahushua, the Lord Jesus Christ can and will protect. We ARE in the End Times, and if you do not accept this simple fact that is growing in evidence daily, then you will be WITHOUT DEFENSE. It will come down to TWO CHOICES, and they will be Christ or Lucifer - period, end of story.

I pray for all of you who are led into deception by the front cover of New Age, which when opened, activates the entire book of Satanism in your life, in ways you do not want. This is part of the GREAT DECEPTION - as Lucifer always mixes truth with lies.

Life is not all about "love and light" my dear New Age brethren - it is also about JUSTICE. You must come to Christ or you will not be protected. My best friend and I HAVE ALREADY DONE THE WORK OF SUFFERING FROM NEW AGE ATTACKS - be wise and listen to what I say.

Blessed be the Most High,
Former New Ager

Originally posted by Cythraul
Well that's going to be very difficult for us to reconcile if you believe that "In the beginning..." was only six or so thousand years ago.

And if I don't? Interesting assumption on your part. Let's just stick with "In the beginning" to mean "in the beginning" for clarity's sake.

Sheeeeesh.

I am a Christian and anybody who has ever seen "The Waterboy" knows that school, girls, and fooz-ball are THE DEVIL!

I'm not going to go bashing Christianity, Islam, or any other organised religion, it's not the fault of the followers.

I will say that everyone following their so called "Occult practices" why do you put so much of your faith, following what is written in books? you cant learn the powers of Nature from a book, all books give, are other peoples opinions, experiences, thoughts, and conclusions after research, what they don't give you are the main tools , those tools begin with you, your inner self, and you can only find what you need through you, by searching and exploring, not following words written by another.

Books can be used as guide to what you seek, but are far from giving you the answers, and those answers are inside, you just need to learn how to read them, and then what to do with them.

As for Occultists being branded as Satanists, well go and do some research, the Occult as it is being labelled here, came long long before Satanism ever had something to give it it's own label, ie Satan, a name manufactured to bestow fear and keep you under control, if you don't follow their rules then you will burn in Hell, doesn't sound very God like to me, Gods are supposed to be all forgiving, and Loving, condemning you to eternal suffering well it speaks for itself IMO.

As a Pagan, Satan means nothing to me, has no part in my faith, I am neither afraid of him hurting me or offering me accommodation for feeling guilty about anything, as for Hell, where have I been living all these years?

Originally posted by Aldolas

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We're 'lumping christians together' just as much as we are 'lumping occultists together'!
i.e. we are generalizing.

Nope. I specifically named a certain brand of Christianity in my OP. Ive also spoken good of Christian Mystics. Furthermore, I think Saint4God is a good non-fanatic contributor of the Christian Perspective.

No generalizing here

Aldolas - yes, you are right we all generalize. I just sometimes get irritated when I am lumped in with angry, judgemental "Christians". I do understand why people do that though as that is how the majority of "Christians" act.

Regarding your comment to formernewager - not to speak on their behalf though - I believe the "UFO's" in the Bible that you speak of likely began with Genesis 6 when "the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose." These "sons of God" were the angels who rebelled and "fell" from serving God to serve their own rebellios plan. These fallen have the ability to appear as anything they want to, aliens, ghosts, apparitions of the virgin Mary, even as angels of light. Their "leader", Satan, is Biblically referred to as the "ruler of the kingdom of the air" in Eph. 2:2 and later in Eph 6:12 the fallen angels are referred to as "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." These "sons of God" or Nephelim (among other names) were like gods during the time of Noah and after the flood per Gen 6:4 they were "on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to ther daughters of men and had children by them."

So, before and after the flood, the rebellious angels would fly down - perhaps in disc shaped craft - take humans and mate with them creating "hybrids". These "hybrids" were the giants of old, the warriors, kings, etc., and most were worshipped as gods. Jesus stated that in the days of Noah, so shall be the days of the end (my paraphrase). He was referring to people just going about their normal daily business unaware of what was about to happen, but the reference to Noah's time brings to mind the "visitations" of aliens so very similar to current times. As there will be spiritual warfare in and around the "heavens", so are the stories of the "good aliens" here to help protect us from the coming invasion of the "bad aliens".

Originally posted by saint4God
And if I don't? Interesting assumption on your part. Let's just stick with "In the beginning" to mean "in the beginning" for clarity's sake.

Fair enough. But perhaps then you should be more careful with your use of quotation marks. Your use of them in the first place suggested that you were quoting from the Bible. I only obliged with your own line of reasoning.

Nothing can be older than the beginning of the beginning, so clearly Occultism in any form is not. But the Bible was not written "in the beginning". Judaism (in its Biblical form) is no more than several thousand years old and seeing as the universe is 13.7 billion years old, clearly the Bible (nor Judaism or Christianity) has not existed "since the beginning", nor has it existed for anywhere near 40,000 years. Occultism has existed for at least 40,000 years.

Originally posted by Cythraul
...clearly the Bible (nor Judaism or Christianity) has not existed "since the beginning", nor has it existed for anywhere near 40,000 years.

The Bible may not have been penned in the beginning, but this does not mean it did not exist in the beginning. There's no evidence that it did not exist beyond 40,000, yet we have something to say that it did. Sorry, neither occultism nor any other religion began before in the beginning.


[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

...and for some of us there is no "beginning" and no "end"...