Originally posted by Skyfloating
"Focus on self takes away from focus on good" ... Its an argument I dont agree with,

I don't agree with it either.
I was putting it forth as one of the arguements that I have heard.

I am of the opinion that many Christian churches are afraid that if people discover their own abilities, and they start to exercise them, then those people may not bother going to Church - not bother leaving donations, etc. Those priests and ministers may not be aware that their respective church fathers said that 'focus on self is against God' for that reason - but I believe that really was the reason.

"Clearing the mind of clutter" is a basic practice as is not being swept back and forth by internal cravings and aversions.

Again .... sounds very 'christian'. The mystics - Carmelites mostly - spoke about this. They didn't use 'candle gazing' but they spoke about making quiet the internal cravings and noise. St. Teresa of Avila would spend hours 'water gazing'. They didn't call it that, and to this day the Catholic Church doesn't say that's what it was, but she did spend hours gazing at running water.

Reminds me of Nostrodamus and his water gazing. He's watch the lights twinkle across the top of the water and he'd get his visions that way.

Although I agree occultism does not have to include Satanism, I wanted to interject a Christian paradigm on the issue. According to the rules we'd been given:

"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." - Deuteronomy 18:9-11

So for us, there are things that are permissible and there are things that are not. Occultism falls into the "not" catagory. This law is a subset of "You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) albeit a little difficult to explain how. I would find it inappropriate and in poor taste for a Christian to wag their finger at an occultist (or anyone other than a Satanist) and saying "you worship the devil!" It just shows their affronting hostile nature and does nothing in the way of helping as far as I can tell.

I don't see this as the largest conspiracy ever, though may be the largest one impacting the original poster's life.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Reminds me of Nostrodamus and his water gazing. He's watch the lights twinkle across the top of the water and he'd get his visions that way.

Nos was into divination however, a Biblical "no no". I'm not saying "Don't look at the water!" But instead do not attempt to derive fortune-telling through magical castings/interpretation up a mystical pool. I love hanging out on God's creation and enjoying the scenery, but see it as such.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." - Deuteronomy 18:9-11

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

You may be surprised to learn that my "occult career" did not involve any of these practices. These are considered "cheap market-place mumbo-jumbo" by my myself and other occult-practioners I know.

In fact, any occultist who really knows his stuff wouldnt cast a spell on another. It contradicts the basic law of "what you put out, you will get back" and would create all sorts of undesirable contradictions and problems.

Originally posted by saint4God
Although I agree occultism does not have to include Satanism, I wanted to interject a Christian paradigm on the issue. According to the rules we'd been given:

"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." - Deuteronomy 18:9-11

So for us, there are things that are permissible and there are things that are not. Occultism falls into the "not" catagory. This law is a subset of "You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3) albeit a little difficult to explain how. I would find it inappropriate and in poor taste for a Christian to wag their finger at an occultist (or anyone other than a Satanist) and saying "you worship the devil!" It just shows their affronting hostile nature and does nothing in the way of helping as far as I can tell.

I don't see this as the largest conspiracy ever, though may be the largest one impacting the original poster's life.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

You have just quoted from the bible. The problem is that the "bible" is most-all of the image of man, not from God. There are so many different versions and interpretations of the bible nowadays, the book is just a comic book with no facts.

Originally posted by saint4God

"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." - Deuteronomy 18:9-11

know what?
that's probably A LOT of what those guys that wrote Deuteronomy WERE DOING!...

HAY.. DO NOT DO what WE are doing!.. etc..
keeping the occult .. essentially.. occult..

and for the WRONG reasons.. etc..

think about things throughout history with a broader mindset, man...
and you'll be able to see so much more of what people that ruled your religion were and ARE capable of.

instead of taking scripture blindly as complete absolute truth for fear that your peers or judgmental god will kick your ash for it.

-

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The version of Christianity that preaches empowerment (as a child of God) rather than Fear (of Satan)...such as the Christian Mystics did it...is much closer to what some of us term "occult practice".

Sounds tempting doesn't it? Use your belief in God to gain power. Since we're talking about Satan, let's review one of his empowerment sales pitches:

"The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;" - Luke 4:9-10

Keep reading, it gets better. Even the devil knows scripture.

What's wrong with being who and what we already are? We have the power to speak, the power to love, and the free gift of eternal life, what more do we need?

Originally posted by saint4God
What's wrong with being who and what we already are? We have the power to speak, the power to love, and the free gift of eternal life, what more do we need?

There's nothing wrong with that. Gratitude for the gift of life abounds.
Let that not turn into the apathy of "no point in progressing" though.

Originally posted by gordonwest
You have just quoted from the bible.

So I have! How 'bout that.

Originally posted by gordonwest
The problem is that the "bible" is most-all of the image of man, not from God.

Says you.

Originally posted by gordonwest
There are so many different versions and interpretations of the bible nowadays, the book is just a comic book with no facts.

Says you. Thanks for your input, it's noted with as much value as my own perspective.

Originally posted by prevenge
know what?
that's probably A LOT of what those guys that wrote Deuteronomy WERE DOING!...

Probably? You don't know? Then why accuse?

Originally posted by prevenge
instead of taking scripture blindly as complete absolute truth for fear that your peers or judgmental god will kick your ash for it.

What causes you to assume I blindly take scripture? That's a bit obtuse without knowing anything about my experiences. I would've shared them if you would've asked instead of making a judgement about me.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There's nothing wrong with that. Gratitude for the gift of life abounds.
Let that not turn into the apathy of "no point in progressing" though.

Thanks and agree, we must continually strive to be all we can be as a person.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by gordonwest
Ha. Even you, a "saintforGod" shown clear EVIDENCE that the "leader" of the CHURCH is Satan.

Uh, what?

Originally posted by gordonwest
What more do we need? Even you have shown to the members of ATS that we do NOT need the church.

Uh, what?

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by prevenge
instead of taking scripture blindly as complete absolute truth for fear that your peers or judgmental god will kick your ash for it.

What causes you to assume I blindly take scripture? That's a bit obtuse without knowing anything about my experiences. I would've shared them if you would've asked instead of making a judgement about me.

ok true.. i get carried away when i talk to christians.

I guess you could say it's in my blood.

I don't have anything against the intrinsic values that the character of christ teaches.

I actually hold those values as something innately construed to myself as a being ...
I just don't hold conscience with all the literal hegemony and all-knowingness of the pervading preachiness that pervades our forums often

peace be with ya'll

don't forget to chill tho.
(and I mean both those sayings in the most least-ghetto-ish mannerisms available nowaday(z) )
ooo my colt40's gettin warmz--
-

[edit on 22-12-2008 by prevenge]