Christmas Inside Us All

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posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 05:05 AM
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reply to post by wylekat
 


Wylekat,

I gave up christmas some time back in the 1980s with no regrets. I am so happy I am off that treadmill. What an annual rat race. I feel no guilt for having given it up. Many peoples try to burden me with guilt for not doing as they do but it does not work. I am not interested in it.
I sometimes think that the few years I spent working in a shopping mall and observing people at this time of year contributed to solidifying why I gave up that rat race.

As to the woman who left you. I've had similar experiences and several times only to realize much later that they did me a favor. They would have been high maintenance to the detriment of our relationship.
This does not mean that you dont love them or ever loved them. We can often love or be in love with that which is actually bad for us and not realize it. Love can often mean blinders..male and female. Many of us dont realize this until it is to late.
If they left you for someone else...they probably did you a favor. Stop carrying this baggage around with you.

I've actually had women and men tell me that if I dont keep christmas how do I expect to keep a woman?? My answer is what kind of shallow woman uses christmas as a standard of a man's worthiness. I dont want a woman that shallow. I've told several woman ..if it is a problem ..hit the bricks. Christmas is one day a year....a year is 365 days. How shallow can a woman be to think her settings are the only worthy ones on the radio dial.

Think of the number of women and men you know who go through all that hoopla and then state under their breaths...."Im glad thats over for another year."
They just cannot do the math..they cannot crunch the numbers.
Dont misunderstand me here. This time of year is one of the few times familys have off such that they can get together. I have no problem with this....any time of the year. I am just not into all the self obligatory hooplah surrounding it. That is the treadmill to which I stepped off years ago.

Redneck,
Dont you feel bad due to your inlaws or outlaws. You dont carry this baggage around with you. Hard times fall on all of us. It is how you handle and survive the hard times which builds character...and character far beyond the material things. You are in this to go the distance dude...not just to get to christmas. You are not alone in this plight. There are lots of people out here in the same boat. Some of them were doing quite well before hard economic downturns.
Stay the course Redneck. Navigate your ship...everyone else can get lost or grab an oar. The duties of leadership so often mean that you are out there alone. And it can get lonely and burdensome.
Stay the course!! Navigate to safer waters.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 22-12-2008 by orangetom1999]




posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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Good post. I have no doubt that things will pick up for you sooner or later.

As long as you and your family are ok thats the main thing. Peoples luck always changes, some times you will have lots, other times you will have little. There is never a happy medium it seems.

Just remember there is always someone worse off than you, even when it seems you have nothing!!!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by wylekat
I'll trade ya.



I have been on disability for a while.... Making me oh so attractive to the women that infest the planet. Suicide crosses my mind every year- and this time, I am darned close.

Bah freakin' Humbug.


Ay bro, don't talk like that! I will tell you this fact, i don't care if you are litterally the ugliest dude in the whole world (which i'm sure your not, and far from it, at that!) thier is plenty of women who would love to garner your attention, and much more!

You just have to look in the right places my friend, and what i mean by the right places are places and or events that you are interestd in that attract woman who are obviousley into the same thing you are, and keep a positive dimeener (spelling?) about you at all times no matter what, and i gaurantee you that you will meet someone that will give you that pep back in your step my man!

It may not be tommoro, it may not be next month, or the first, second or third person you meet, but it will happen eventually as long as you LOOK IN THE RIGHT PLACES AND KEEP A POSITIVE DIMEENER ABOUT YOU! Just think if your a guy who's really into ufology you're not going to go to an American sports conference and expect to meet many women that will have a lot in common with you, and vice versa!

In the early two thousands my wife of over five years, whom i loved deeply, up and left me, and within a few months was with another man with whom she since has married and had two kids with.

It tore my heart to shreds and i went more than a couple of years without anyone in my life, until i realised what i just told you! And i am single today but i keep my chin up when i am out and about and meet nice girls all of the time! Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, keep your head up high, and keep smiling and you will attract them i gaurantee it! It's called "THE LAW OF ATTRACTION" and it works every time! And get that dumbass word "SUICIDE" out of your head, because there are many woman with the same mind set as yourself that would love your attention and companionship! PEACE!

devil


[edit on 22-12-2008 by damdevildog]

[edit on 22-12-2008 by damdevildog]

[edit on 22-12-2008 by damdevildog]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Merry Christmas to you and your family redneck!

You are not the only one on that boat as i'm sure you know, like the rest of us, but the positive way that you are seeing things is a great message to many.

I appreciate people like you in this world, and the world is surely lacking of people with your kind of character, and i would like to tell you that when i myself come across people like yourself i usually become instant friends with them as apposed to the steriotypical materialistic types of people out there who judge everything on the dollar!

PEACE AND GODBLESS YOU AND YOURS THIS HOLIDAY SEASON!

devil



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by LostNemesis
 





Food, clothing, shelter... LIFE?


Oh, how many times I have heard that tripe. " God gave you a home, and food- and you're ungrateful?"

Ummm... YES. So what if I get to survive another stinking day- where's someone to live for? Someone to love? Someone who is in your life and you both get to love, be with, make mistakes with, and LIVE LIFE WITH?

Scoff all you want, but human companionship is a need, just like food and shelter. After the decades I have lived alone, that whole argument has gone past losing it's luster.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Christmas is indeed a feeling, an emotion from the heart. A desire to be completely at peace and in balance with others all over the world.

Christmas is the festivity of the Light, the outer Light and inner Light that shines for each of us, no matter where on earth we live or hide. It's the Light that chases away the differences and misunderstandings between people everywhere.

That LIGHT that shines from deep in our hearts is not meassured by any materialism or appearences.

I embrace those with the 'crazy ideas' and see them as brothers and sisters of the Light. Let's forgive and be gentile with all those who still think money and status is what counts, because we know ... it's all about the brightness of that Light that shines in our hearts and Souls.

Merry Christmas all!!!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Nothing has brought a tear to me eyes for a long time but that post did. For the best reasons. That was such a touching and meaningful post and it really put me in the mood I was looking to be in this Christmas. Those who have so much and are yet so miserable give way to people like the Redneck who seem to only value the important and see what it is they are blessed with not what they lack. Merry Christmas, God bless and may we all be so fortunate to have the outlook you do. People like you will be given what they need and good things will come your way.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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Merry Christmas Redneck. It was not long ago that I was 8 months without employment. After that, I'd gotten the best job since I started working fifteen years ago and am still here. I'll hope and pray the same for you and your family. Keep throwing darts at the dartboard, hope, pray, and may God give you the bullseye.

"Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." - Romans 5:3-5

"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." - Matthew 6:20

[edit on 22-12-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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TheRedneck that was a wonderful post. I just wanted to say thanks for this heartfelt writing. I actually read it yesterday but couldn't think of what to say.

Maybe I am lucky this year took me 30 minutes total to go shopping, and I didn't spend much but I guess that's cause I don't have children of my own to buy for, or a girlfriend. I avoided a whole lot of the hustle and bustle.

I work basically in customer service and this lady snapped at me today. I just let it go right through me and tried to be nice. She was trying to get Christmas stuff done. Well she had to go away for 15 minutes and come back to see me. The second time she was a totally different person and told me she was sorry and that what happened "could not have been good" when she was snappy. I told her "really it's alright I understand." I just kept nodding to her as she talked it out and she thanked me 3 times for my help lol.

I must say the Christmas music at work has been more positive than I could ever imagine. Strange I guess but for me it's notable. I know a lot has changed with my outlook since the past year. There is definetly something good about Christmas.

I've never heard more people get away from the materialistic as I have this year either. So many have said "You know what christmas is really about" and "We don't need all this stuff." etc I'm hearing this stuff every day, all the time! (EDIT: I'm not talking about ATS, I'm talking about at work!)

This will probably be one of the best christmases I have ever had, maybe it's that I've changed, maybe it's that many seem to be changing for the better. I'm just a young man with a simple low wage job and no kids, no girlfriend even. I am just really grateful though, all the things that matter yes, but especially especially grateful for my parent's health. If there is anything I thank God for it is their health.

Best of luck to you sir worldly wise, as far as I'm concerned you are ahead of the game when it comes to the things that matter.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by Novise]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


Very moving story about Mike and what you did. I guess what's also neat to me is that it must have all started a while back. These ideas of anti-materialism are more mainstream now than they were then, at least it seems like to me. Well I wasn't around then but it seems that way.

It really makes it more meaningful like it was a more original idea.

I have lost a friend, comrade, an inspiration to cancer as well...

You guys keep him in your memory. And be glad you can share yours in such a meaningful way with the envelope. I regret that my family and friends will never know about my old friend Dave (and probably don't care to), I only celebrate him personally.

That first time you bought the team the gear was probably the best present he ever got.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 

I wish I could give up christmas ... I may be the woman for you,jk.
I'm looking fwd to the 26th - when it's over.
Christmas is the most depressing time of year for me.

Merry Christmas Redneck. Good post.
I don't think people should care if you can't afford a good enough gift or even one at all. I would have just said "Look, things are tight this year, and I don't have the money to spend on the people I usually buy gifts for and just gonna do my kids". There comes a point were you might have to knock people off your list, and it may even provide relief to them, because you can stop the exchange altogether for future xmas'. I used to get gifts for my sister, until we finally said to each other to stop and just do the kids, then it eventually stopped on the neices and nephews when they got older. Some people buy for every family member that was ever born and still living. That's ok if they're into it and can aford, but to me it's just geting carried away. Then there are those who whine they don't like their gift or write out wish lists and they're grown adults, it's time to stop the Santa letters.

Having said that though, why do we feel the need to follow whoever made up this gift exchange rule? Who said that's what it's about? I don't recall voting for it, just going along with it reluctantly.

I'd also like to point out as well that even the fortunate ones who aren't suffering the financial stress, can feel just as depressed by this season. I know you covered this in your post, but alot of times people think only the poor suffer with depression. Money never made anyone truly happy.


[edit on 22-12-2008 by violet]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 
Good cheer my friend!Things will turn around for you,in the meantime you have whats truly important already in you heart!Your family Should be proud to have one such as you in their midst!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 07:06 PM
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Excellent post, Redneck.

So many of us are in the same boat this year. Hubby lost his job back in October and things are very lean around here this year too. I am thankful for that. Why? It has made us stop and really see what there is to be thankful for. I am the sort of person who has always liked to give what I possibly could to everyone I care about. I can't do it this year, but as I was feeling bad for not being able to do much for many this year, I stopped and thought about what I do for them throughout the year as well as what they do for me, and it is not in material things. It is being a good friend, sister, mother, wife, neighbor, etc.

It has been agreed upon this year at work (so many I work with have been laid off as well) that we not do anything for Christmas this year, gifts are banned, we will be having a potluck lunch on Wednesday. At my mother's house this year, gifts are not being given, except to the children, and what we as adults are to do is a random act of kindness to a stranger. Yeah, it sounds corny, but I've already started mine, and it feels good, so I am making an effort to find something each day to do, no matter how small.

My daughter is also at an age where she is learning that she should be giving back as well. She took some some of her savings and picked out 2 toys and gave to toys for tots. She are starting to realize that every one doesn't have it as good as we do, and we don't have it as good as it seems others do.

Again, great post. I think you have touched many of us - at least me - and for that I am grateful. I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas, and a year full of blessings and joy!

PS: On a side note, I think people judge others as failures or whatever because of what they are lacking on the inside. Perhaps your step father sees something in you he wishes he had himself.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 

My friend, you have the true spirit of Christmas. No one can ever take that away from you. Your wisdom and concern is a gift that we have all been able to benefit from, here at ATS. I feel fortunate to be considered your friend.
When you mentioned the drafty home, I couldn't help but think to an event over two thousand years ago, which also took place in a drafty environment:


In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3All went to their own towns to be registered. 4Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. 5He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.


Merry Christmas to you and your family. May the New Year bring joy and good news to you and your family.
Your friend,
ProfEmeritus



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 10:25 PM
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Lol

well I got no money and no family and I already lost my house and my job is on shaky ground. So bah humbug.

X-mas is cancelled this year, lets celebrate new american revolution day instead and riot in the streets.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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There is nothing wrong with giving ..anytime of the year...most certainly.

One of my favorite persons to whom to give is the olde man out front of Wal Mart with the cookie tin held out. I will often go to a fast food place and get him a drink and a meal and return to give it to him along with a five doller bill.

One day he asked me to call a certain cab company for him to send a cab to pick him up. They told me his name and that he sleeps there behind the furnace at night. Apparently they drop him off there when he asks and pick him up the same way.

Nonetheless..nothing wrong with giving anytime of the year you feel so inclined. You decide to whom and when you give. That is your buisness..not anyone elses.

Be safe out there folks. Keep warm this winter.
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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Wow, so many replies, so many flags and stars... I just today checked back to see if anyone had even bothered to reply. As you can guess, I was shocked, amazed, and touched all at the same time. I'm not even going to try and respond to all the well-wishers except to say here, thank you all, from the bottom of my heart. There are a few who deserve a personal response, however:

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
That was the most touching story I have ever heard. Mike sounds like a wonderful person, and I am so sorry he was taken from you so soon. But you know, he's really not gone; he still lives in those children who took it upon themselves to honor him in the way he would most appreciate.

reply to post by wylekat
I am truly sorry to hear about your situation, my friend. But rest assured, it cannot be as bad as you think it is. Were it possible to do so across the distances that this Internet appears to wipe away, you would be a welcome guest in my home. No trickery needed for an invitation. I am sure you have heard that before and have been disappointed, but one thing this old redneck does not do is make idle promises. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

Life works funny sometimes for some people. This year we are meager and struggling. Last year, we were on top of the world. Next year, who knows. I know I still have something to offer to the world, irregardless of whether the world knows it or not. So do you. And while it is not logical, the world tends to look at the cover of the book rather than taking time to read the pages.

Your misery will end. Perhaps tomorrow, perhaps next year, but it will end. When that day comes, a stronger, more capable person will emerge. It has been said "that which does not kill us makes us stronger", and it was said in all truth.

I will be saying a prayer for you, whether you want it or not. Feel free to consider it a simple wish for good fortune. It is a good thing in either case.

I will also wish you a Merry Christmas. If you choose to, you can think of it as a friend's wish that the day of December 25 is a good one for you. That is also a good thing.

But more importantly, I will be praying that your misery is turned to joy, and that you can again wake up in the morning and smile at the world as I do, thankful to be able to experience another day.

reply to post by spellbound
Hate to disappoint you, but I really am a redneck. Not all rednecks are intolerant, and not all blacks like watermelon.


The rest of your post, now, that really touched me.

----------------------------

I wrote that post in a moment of weakness. Yes, it's cold. Yes, I'm about broke. Yes, I'm unemployed.

But Sunday night, I went to church. I'm pretty much non-denominational, but my kids seem to like the Church of God, so we've been attending there. There was no sermon that night; it was the Christmas presentation. I watched the little kids singing Christmas carols, and listened to one of the most beautiful choirs I know of singing songs of faith. Then I watched a drama presentation by the drama team my kids are both involved in.

The first thing I noticed was my son. He's no longer a boy. He's becoming a man, and a strong, proud, capable one as well. He had a major role with his girlfriend, and his spirit overpowered the stage.

The next presentation was more of a dance routine. My daughter's solo part came up, and suddenly there were whoops and applause from every corner of that church. She literally stole the show. But then it was my son's turn to perform his solo, and to my amazement and delight, he received the same recognition.

That night I received the greatest present my children could have given me. But they weren't through yet. Depression was knocking at my door again, and I was pretty low, despite the show. But once home, both kids spent hours pointing out to me just how much hope there was for us. My daughter, the psychiatrist-in-training, took charge of my dreams and hopes and put them in a perspective that gave me hope once again.

I do not know what I have done to deserve them. I just know that I hope to never disappoint them.

They never disappoint me.

Merry Christmas to everyone who reads this.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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The origin of the word Christ is the Egyptian Khrst - IT MEANS BURIAL.

It does not mean annointed. This misconception arose from the fact that coffin lids of mummies have the word Khrst on them and the mummies had been annointed with embalming fluids.

Better to say Merry Uaka Festival - same date 25th December and celebrated for many thousands of years.



posted on Dec, 25 2008 @ 01:28 AM
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Ah Hypocritesmass ! The one day of the year when the churches all get together , give their dumb flock a fresh injection of vain hope and sing the usual saccharin platitudes about some mythical god boy with awesome powers . Ho hum , Ho hum .

Im all for compassion and unselfish giving , but when the churches confine it to one day of the year and spend the rest of it screwing people in every concievable way its all a bit lost on me.

Jesus turns a blind eye while the fundamentalists cause murder and mayhem in Iraq and now they are licking their self pitying wounds and praying ,yet again , for a miracle in the new year .

When will people stop placing their faith in this crap and start taking responsibility for the mess they voted themselves in to ?

The christians steal everything ,including this originaly pagan festival and turn it into a morbid mockery of Love .

Then come easter , another pagan festival they appropriated , they will obbsess about some guy 'dying for our sins ' > like we are supposed to feel guilty for it !

Nah . Just give me my pressies from santa and I'll throw another steak on the Barby . Its summer time in the lucky country and the only reason My family is not starving is because we put our faith in ourselves instead of a selfish incompetent god who does not give a rats ass ...

One of the reasons why the English kicked those 'puritans' out of the country was because they figured if it was okay for the old testament big boys to practice incest and inbreeding then dang nabbit Pilgrim ,they could too ! after all , if your 'chosen' by god he wont mind .

So off they toddled to 'New England' , to procreate without 'religious persecution' ,with their daughters ,cousins and any other immediate members of the family they damn well pleased . Because the law would not allow them to back in the old country . Shame on the British for their intolerant ways !

Ah FREEDOM . And so it spreads around the nation like the myth of 'freedom for all' while the Natives who frown upon anything even remotely close to inbreeding are slaughtered in their millions because they were compassionate enough to help those pilgrim scum get through winter.....

The consequenses of inbreeding are many . Lower IQ , many and varied physical infirmities , intolerance , deviant behaviour and finally sterility and natures mercy to the rest of us , extinction.

Hey , maybe there is a god after all ? Lets call her nature and the laws of evolution . After all ,thats what the pagans worshiped . Mother natures abundance and the sharing of her fruits EQUALLY .

When will the vatican open its vast coffers and end the poverty it thrives on ? Obviously not this winter .



posted on Dec, 25 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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Redneck,


Hate to disappoint you, but I really am a redneck. Not all rednecks are intolerant, and not all blacks like watermelon.


I am not a redneck but I am intolerant of certain things.


Malankhkare,


The origin of the word Christ is the Egyptian Khryst - IT MEANS BURIAL.


It cannot be Egyptian. For in the Word...Egypt is often referred to as a place to get away from...come out of. To not follow the patterns/customs/practices of those surrounding us..or in the Old Testament...the nations surrounding Ancient Israel. In the New Testament the term or expression is often used for corruption and abomination...Sodom and Egypt.

God would not give instructions to follow such a pattern or practice.

Don'T worry..most Christians themselves do not know this pattern or fingerprint....especially today.

recon pilot.

Did you go to public school and never quite get over it. Don'T worry ..a lot of Christians are in the same boat.


The one day of the year when the churches all get together


This is not the one day of the year when the churchs all get together. Most worship on Sundays as this is the only day most have off. Many in fact worship on Wednesday nights. It matters not ...as long as they fellowship together ..break bread, drink of the cup and remember Him.

It is however what passes for textbook public education drama queen standards now day. A television education.
However..I am afraid .. many Believers have the same education standards today as well.


The christians steal everything ,including this originally pagan festival and turn it into a morbid mockery of Love .


This is not quite true but it makes for good drama technique. Do I need to take a lie detector test of this one...a DNA paternity test as well??

It is in fact pagan in origins. Which is why... once I learned this ..I gave it up...Easter as well. Same with Halloween and birthdays. These are all pagan customs/traditions. There is no instruction both Old and New Testaments for a Child of God to celebrate a birthday. You will find this in pagan tradition and custom. All Glory and Praise among Believers is to go to God....24/7.

What clued me into this once I learned how many states and by what date they adopted christmas...was the realization of how many Atheists and non believers celebrated christmas. This along with the heavy merchandising treadmill...on which almost everyone seemed to be "traveling."

The Significance of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins is His death burial and resurrection...for whom He did these things in obedience to His Father. Not His birth. This significance is 24/7...not just on one day.
Many Believers do in fact lose sight of this Truth ..in favor of man made custom and tradition.


Im all for compassion and unselfish giving , but when the churches confine it to one day of the year and spend the rest of it screwing people in every conceivable way its all a bit lost on me.


I'm for unselfish giving too. However...with the above description of yours,I can make a good argument that this is the template of the body politic which also finances our public educations. Could there be a relationship there in the conduct...as I also know that most churchs are under 501c corporate status which at law is a creature of the state? This means no separation of church and state...both on the part of the government as well as the churchs. Churchs should be tax immune...not tax exempt. There is a difference. Both the churchs and government are lying to us here. Could there be a connection in the whoredom you are describing in the above quote??

Also recon pilot...does this mean the government is in the religion bizz??
Think it through..it will come to you in process of time.

If it is true that government is in the religion bizz...what is the name of the religion of government?? For all that matter ..if the government is in the religion bizz...what is the name of their god?? Think long and thoughtfully on this one.

You see...reconpilot..once one knows the history of this world...one sees clearly that what you describe is the template of the pagan nations...and their religion...long before Christianity came along. It is just a continuation of the same template ..going back for thousands of years .... under the guise of Christianity...guise...ie..a counterfeit. Amazingly ..most Believers don't have enough thought to connect these dots on their own. You can see plenty of this template if you know where to look in history..pre Christian eras.


The consequences of inbreeding are many . Lower IQ , many and varied physical infirmities , intolerance , deviant behaviour and finally sterility and natures mercy to the rest of us , extinction.


I can make this same argument about public education standards today. All I have to do is open an olde Mcguffey Reader or any book over 100 years old and read.
Oh...and for public education standards..you can also substitute the term...a television education/drama education as evidenced by your post.


Hey , maybe there is a god after all ? Lets call her nature and the laws of evolution . After all ,that's what the pagans worshiped . Mother natures abundance and the sharing of her fruits EQUALLY .


Quite correct here recon pilot. Among some this is called pantheism. Nature worship. Which was in fact part and parcel of the religions of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel and for which they were instructed not to follow their customs and practices....for these were abomination.

Thanks for giving us your religion and also the religion of our government.
Pantheism. Nature worship. When ever nations go back to nature worship...nature conquers man...not the other way around. Man soon enough finds himself subject to nature..while a few under feudal title and fiefdom live reasonably well off the labor and risk of others.
This is called Royalty/Feudalism. Advancing by degrees in the wisdom of this world. Is this not what the body politic is becoming if not actually already are?? And remember ..the body politic finances public education.

History is replete with this track record and example if one knows where to look.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom





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