Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

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posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by zlots331
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


You bring up another point that has been bandied about.

If a particular civilization is old enough, sea levels would have been drastically different. Most civilizations develop around water, for food, transportation, etc. Rising sea levels would not only submerge any traces but probably destroy any traces due to erosion or buried under sediments.

Climate changes that have resulted in huge deserts could also play a factor, burying any trace that might have existed.



Great Post Zlots, your thinking right up my alley!


This is something that gets overlooked, especially by the archeology which refuses to think outside of the box. Lets look at the climate and sea level changes for example, during the last ice age which ended 12,000 years ago (meaning B.C. 10,000) surprising you find this the limit most of the main stream scientific community will admit to some kind of Human Civilization.

Imagine a world of highly advance civilizations enjoying and living along the shores lines near between the tropics. Is it any wonder that there appears to be advance civilizations where you would expect them? The ones that were not drowned by flooding where located in Peru, Mexico, Eygpt, India and China. I have posted two images, one has the extent of the ice sheets along with submerged lands, notice the land bridge between Europe and Africa. The second image depicts the vegetation during the last ice age.







Imagine its starts raining 10,000 years ago and doesn't stop! The ice sheets melt within years and flood the great civilizations! The world is devastated and reeling from the this hugh event. People that aren't killed by flooding, die from starvation and disease. Sea would have had to risen almost 400 feet in some cases!

Sea Level Rise

This would explain the flood story of many ancient societies and the lose or lack of evidence of highly developed societies, other than a glimmer here and an artifact there that seems out of place of the darwain like theories that has man advancing continuously!

IMHO - Man's advancement has been in cycles, like all of natures!

Last Glacial Age

[edit on 12/21/08 by mel1962]




posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by DangerDeath
 


Howdy DangerDeath, yes rogues, loners, hermits, self-voyagers tend to keep a low profile but even they can be detected archaeology wise - of course their philosophy wouldn't be recovered. You might get clues of this by art work (bone and stone and in some cases softer things if the soil is the proper type) you might also detect them as being different from the matrix of whatever other civilization might be around.

Yoda411, underground civilzations. We discussed that recently here in another thread. Difficult for humans without a more technological society to deal with psychological and physical problems caused by living underground. Alternatively evolved or non-human civilizations living under ground? Possible but in my mind not of a high probably. However how would we detect such a society that lived in such heat at such depths?

Howdy Infinite, even nuclear weapons don't destroy everything, as proven by Hiroshima and Nagasaki - unless you go for ground bursts, and even then deeply buried materials will survive-plus you'd need a whole lot of them. At present there is no evidence of nuclear war in ancient times, the Mahabharata notwithstanding. Challenge, find that quote in the original source. There are similar types of quotes but that one seems more 'over translated'.

Howdy Dangerdeath, people without technological society tend to call things they see by names that of course don't exactly describe them. However we don't know if they are describing natural events, dreams, imaginations or actual technology. But we stray off subject.

Howdy Punkinworks, yes a well reasoned comment. Yep advanced, ie equal to us, would leave an impressive trail of debris, a favorite of mine, cut gems, virtually indestructable. Even when a city goes flat it leaves it traces in the soil, in the sediments of lakes and oceans and of course ice.

Howdy Merka, yes, how and where to look? There are a few independently wealthy archaeologists or those who have sources of funds that would allow for such searches. Field survey can be done by just about anyone, however. I would note that fossil hunters and rock hounds haven't come up with anything yet. ....but those types of amateurs would probably be the ones to come up with an anomaly first. As I walk around I tend to find arrow heads, since I have developed an eye for that in doing field survey in the ME.

Howdy Ex_MislTech, thanks for your comments but Zecharia made his stuff up and we know that Sumer has been found. This thread is about finding unknown civilizations.

Howdy Slayer69, yes were to look? Let us know what you come up with.

Howdy Mel1962, I would question the validity of your statement



especially by the archeology which refuses to think outside of the box


They do that all the time, what we know about the ancient world and early man all comes from them, "thinking outside the bos' created by religion. Geologists and Archaeologists were among the leaders in the 19th century in overturning thousands of years of religious based thinking. They continue to find new stuff all the time - quite out of the box I would think.



Imagine its starts raining 10,000 years ago and doesn't stop! The ice sheets melt within years and flood the great civilizations!


Considering we have icecores from 750,000 years ago I think your point of argument has, in fact, melted.

Great comments all



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Fascinating post, Hanslune. My problem when people start thinking of an advanced civilization is they immediately think material items such as iPods and cellphones. I also think that what others here have stated is true: many areas may be buried in the deep jungles of the tropics or deep sand of the deserts.

It is also good to take a rational view and see what is possible without resorting to alien technology.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 12:06 PM
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Anyone ever think that maybe in the great deserts like the Sahara, that maybe a civilization or a few of them are buried deep beneath them.
We do know at one point the desert was not. Then how did those great mounds of sand develop?
Possibly the shape comes from covering up lost buildings and structures and at one point wasn't it a more tropical location with trees and water and grass and what not?

This is the stuff that to me gets over looked too quickly because all we see is vast empty desert but I think the real secrets lie where we once were.
So we figure out how things were back then ( whenever then was ) And go from there.
Kinda like if you want to trace something you follow the money....but in this case you follow the landscape and the history of the area to see what could or was back in history.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by kidflash2008
 


Howdy Kidflash

Have you finished that Hancock book yet? To matters at hand. Having thought about this for some decades. I think any unknown civilization we might find will be just that, completely unknown.

When and if we find something, there will be a collective, slapping of the head and a loud, D'oh, as it will then appear obvious as to the indicators to it. I don't think there are any indicators existing today that point to this or these civilizations.

Howdy Sky

Another comment on your mention of documents. The Library at Alexandria, the materials there were open and available for a long time and there are commentaries by those who read there. There isn't any mention in them of finding information about lost civilizations, etc. The Roman 'Encyclopedists' didn't mention anything either. The Romans were interested in the subject as they kept track of the location of Troy - as their myths said they were from there. Later they had a colony at the site and conducted tourism.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 12:46 PM
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Hello again everyone.

I just wanted to thank you all for your well thought out input on this OP. Some excellent ideas and theories have been presented with the utmost respect for all involved.

It's refreshing to have an intellectual conversation about an interesting subject without the negative banter that seems to pervade even the most innocent threads.

Keep up the good work and thanks for an outstanding thread. This is what ATS does the best.

Merry Christmas




posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by LucidDreamer85
 


Yes the prehistoric importance of the Sahara has risen over the years. A great deal of research is occuring although delayed by regional difficulties and the reluctance of some of the nations. Internal wars in Algeria and Egypt, the well known conflict in Chad and Sudan and the earlier but lesser known wars between Libya and Chad have made work and travel there difficult. Some work has been done and at this point only hunter-gathers have been found. Nasa has provided some excellent data that points out the long evaporated rivers and lakes of the areas.

Look for places where, there is water, its defensible and has access to flint or obsidian for stone tools and you'll probably find that man has been there.

Howdy Z311, thanks for your comments - yes intelligent threads are a rare morsel on much of ATS.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 01:25 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


Yes, I finished "Fingertips of the Gods". I think the best evidence he presents are the measurements. I think those who want an alternative point of view should read his book. It does counter all those aliens came here from hundreds of light years to build pyramids and monuments. (I do believe it is possible we were visited in the past by aliens, but they just observed us.)

I also agree with you on the response such a find will receive.



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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I am continuously amazed how certain things just pop to my attention. As George Noory would say, "There are no coincidences".

While taking a break to visit my "throne" I ran across an article in my November, 2008 Discover Magazine (yes, I'm a few months behind, too much time spent on ATS) that fits right into this thread.

It deals with what has been coined as the Bosnian Pyramid. It is regularly debunked by professionals the world over and the fellow presenting this claim is constantly portrayed as a fake.




He is stating that a group of so called hills in Bosnia are actually 12,000 yr old pyramids. It has been pointed out that the area was under a glacier during the last ice age and at best the only people around were small bands of hunter-gatherers.

But hey, why not. However this find works out at least the guy has some imagination. Stranger things have happened. If everyone listened to the skeptics, nothing would get done.

Some more info can be found here:

discovermagazine.com...

www.piramidasunca.ba...

edit: took out external image..wouldn't work
edit: put image back in

[edit on 21-12-2008 by zlots331]





[edit on 21-12-2008 by zlots331]



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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We may have seen traces of such civilizations already .

From the pire reves map (not sure spelling )
The Greek computer .
The vessels in Egypt that were like a battery with lead cores
beads with extremely small holes in them .
the incas and their tight fitted walls.
If you have ever gone threw a sedimentary area with sand stone you can find deep holes going into the rock round like a cast iron pipe with rusty looking wall .

We may have seen many traces but it dose not fit inside the box so they are discarded by the present research. The theories have been made and if it dose not support present one it is cast off as erroneous. I think much of these need to be reexamined .

And since the anomalous is discounted it is far easier for a ancient civilization to go undetected .



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 04:53 PM
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Howdy Z331



But hey, why not. However this find works out at least the guy has some imagination. Stranger things have happened. If everyone listened to the skeptics, nothing would get done.


Having imagination is always nice, imagination with reality equals speculation, speculation can lead to discovery. Imagination with fantasy equals fraud and deception. Unfortunately, Osmie is running a classic con. It will be interesting to see how long he's allowed to keep at it. Skeptics? It was skeptics questioning the dogma of religion that allowed much of our world to found and understood by the methodology of science.

Howdy Lostinthedarkness

Your list is mainly long ago debunked things plus some things that do fit nicely into our world view. These things actually don't point towards unknown ancient civilizations. The Piri Reis map is a medieval map, nothing more, the Antikytheria is a nice astrology calculator and fruit of the Greek civilisation. The Baghdad battery is from the 6th century AD. The Incas knew how to build. Etc, these known things just point back at what we already know about.

Çatalhöyük and Gobekli tepe are examples of unexpected and unheralded 'civilizations' being found. Both I believe by surface find identification.

Wiki on Gobeki Tepe

Wiki on Catalhuyuk

Catalhuyuk is dated to around 10,000 BP and Gobeki around 11,500 BP. They show a proto village/town and Tepe as a temple site. Not quite full blown civilization like a Sumer or Harappa but certainly heading in the right direction.

Of course both are not fully explored, especially Catal.

As far as I know, there were no myths about these places, no documents and no 'ooparts' pointing towards them. No were there any channellers!



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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I would like to identify an incorrect unspoken premise, humans tend to believe that they are the only intelligent species to dominate the planet. You usually find what you look for so if you're looking for the "human footprint" in the past you are going to miss all those signs that are not included in your basic premise. Can't see the forest for the trees? How about entities without a physical form or ones that eschew water? What if their choice of habitat was underground? There are so many possibilities that it is mind-boggling. God created two invisible races before he created Man. They are both still around.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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Yes.


Reported at the end of last year, but missed pretty much everywhere, Russian archaeologists working in Kyrgyzstan have discovered the remains of, what must have been at its time, a thriving metropolis. Estimated to be from 2,500 years ago, they were found at the bottom of Lake Issyk Kul, in the Kyrgyz mountains.


I found this while browsing reddit earlier today and I didn't want to make a separate thread about this (making threads aren't really my forte), so I decided to put this in here as its somewhat related to the query in the OP. Please read the link below.

Canada Free Press

or you may find out more about this by yourself through google by searching for:

civilization found kyrgyzstan lake



[edit on 12.22.08 by toreishi]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by debris765nju
 


There have been many sightings of other humanoid type creatures, so there may be the possibility of other intelligent life forms. However, they would leave a footprint much in the same way as us: fire, buildings and monuments, tools and other items to find. They may live underground, but they would still need to eat to survive, so there would be some type of evidence out there. The main part is finding a footprint, and then finding out who made it.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 03:08 PM
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The Greek computer has been remarked by national geographic as being more precision built them many med evil clocks 1000 years later . There have been no supporting finds to the technological build up to the computer as of yet . Greek myths refer to gods creating living beings from metal . Greek tales of men building steam powered birds are scattered threw Greek history and myths. They could have been far more advanced that we think .They had tried to debunked this for a while till the find was verified from a Greek wreak of the time period not from a med evil wreak as they tried to debunk it with they had tried to say it came from a 1500s wreak at first.

As for things being summarily dismissed . We need to look to the Nova Scotia where there are finds of viking remains and long houses . Were dismissed.For years which keep Columbus as being the first to find the Americas which modern research leads us to the theory that the vikings were in fact here before Columbus. That had been claimed as debunked and proved as a reality .

If you look at the sphinx there are conflicting reports of water weathering of the area around it . which under our time frame couldnt have happened . The Egyptians built on a older structure or on a natural formation pre weathered . Yes some say this is debunked but when just photo of weathered areas are sent to a geologists and asked what causes this erosion the answer is water in till they hear where the photo is from then its anomalous and not water weathered .

For years people were finding coral beads and tropical feathers from the tropics in the desert southwest Indian ruins and for years the scientific community was saying it was anomalous and they were brought here in recent times . Until some archeologist them selves dug up coral and exotic bird feathers now they have decided that there were trade routes from east to west north to south and in fact these were valid finds . Debunked became a scientific fact .

And yes the Incas were great builders but as to my knowledge neither them nor the Egyptians have we truly figured out how they built them with such precision .

My point is we may have seen glimpses of older civilizations but are being summarily dismissed as anomalous or myths . Our status quo of the scientific community continues as such , pushing back the history clock will not happen till researchers are open to re evaluating our present time line with anomalous items being included .

With our present scientific community we could have many finds of older civilizations but they are discounted for not falling into place .



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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Depends on how ancient. If the population isn't large on the planet it should not be too hard.

People like to live near water. Water levels change.

If it is a very advanced people who are very ecologically minded, they might only put their structures in places that are likely to be "reclaimed" easily. Flooded over, Subducted.....

I like the sukbducted one. Small groups that only put their civilizations' infrastructure in areas that will subduct.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:09 PM
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Howdy Darkness



The Greek computer has been remarked by national geographic as being more precision built them many med evil clocks 1000 years later . There have been no supporting finds to the technological build up to the computer as of yet.


Hans: Ancient writers wrote about these devices but not in enough detail to allow people to appreciate their quality. They are however the work of the Greeks. There has been speculation of a connection with Babylonian devices but its weak at best



Greek myths refer to gods creating living beings from metal . Greek tales of men building steam powered birds are scattered threw Greek history and myths. They could have been far more advanced that we think .


Hans: The Greeks recorded a great deal, although its possible we are missing stuff.



They had tried to debunked this for a while till the find was verified from a Greek wreak of the time period not from a med evil wreak as they tried to debunk it with they had tried to say it came from a 1500s wreak at first.



Hans: items are dismissed due to a lack of evidence, summarily means they are dismissed without being looked at. Everything gets looked at as scientists know that their own fame and fortune lies in making a great find.



We need to look to the Nova Scotia where there are finds of viking remains and long houses . Were dismissed.


Hans: Nope, their was debate about what the Sagas said before the finds, once L’anse aux Meadows was found all debate ended.



For years which keep Columbus as being the first to find the Americas which modern research leads us to the theory that the vikings were in fact here before Columbus. That had been claimed as debunked and proved as a reality.


Hans: Before evidence was found of the Vikings being here the evidence was not accepted, once evidence was found it was accepted



If you look at the sphinx there are conflicting reports of water weathering of the area around it . which under our time frame couldnt have happened .


Hans: There is great debate as to the date of the Sphinx, the evidence is not clear which side is right (IMHO)



The Egyptians built on a older structure or on a natural formation pre weathered . Yes some say this is debunked but when just photo of weathered areas are sent to a geologists and asked what causes this erosion the answer is water in till they hear where the photo is from then its anomalous and not water weathered .


Hans: Yep people disagree on lots of things, more evidence is needed



For years people were finding coral beads and tropical feathers from the tropics in the desert southwest Indian ruins and for years the scientific community was saying it was anomalous and they were brought here in recent times . Until some archeologist them selves dug up coral and exotic bird feathers now they have decided that there were trade routes from east to west north to south and in fact these were valid finds . Debunked became a scientific fact .


Hans: I’m not aware of this one so I won’t comment, accept to say, if new evidence comes in yes, it is incorporated



And yes the Incas were great builders but as to my knowledge neither them nor the Egyptians have we truly figured out how they built them with such precision .


Hans: They were the only people we have evidence for being there at that time and my should we not believe they were capable of good stone work?



My point is we may have seen glimpses of older civilizations but are being summarily dismissed as anomalous or myths .


Hans: Myths are not proof of anything, they are just hearsay and they need supporting evidence .



Our status quo of the scientific community continues as such , pushing back the history clock will not happen till researchers are open to re evaluating our present time line with anomalous items being included .


Hans: Ah the history clock has been pushed back by science many thousands of years just in my life time. When the evidence comes in the history changes. We'd added the Minoan, Sumerian, Harappa, Hittite and other civilizations to our knowledge since we pushed back the dogma of religion. Your comment doesn't make sense in light of these discoveries.




With our present scientific community we could have many finds of older civilizations but they are discounted for not falling into place .


Hans: the evidence doesn’t support the existence of unknown civilizations - this thread is asking the question, could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:12 PM
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Howdy Aeons




I like the sukbducted one. Small groups that only put their civilizations' infrastructure in areas that will subduct.


That would be some very clever people! One knowing about subduction and two somehow knowing no one will find their civilization for the millions of years it takes it to be subducted! I believe it is usually sea bed that is subducted so it might take some time.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune


For years people were finding coral beads and tropical feathers from the tropics in the desert southwest Indian ruins and for years the scientific community was saying it was anomalous and they were brought here in recent times . Until some archeologist them selves dug up coral and exotic bird feathers now they have decided that there were trade routes from east to west north to south and in fact these were valid finds . Debunked became a scientific fact .


Hans: I’m not aware of this one so I won’t comment, accept to say, if new evidence comes in yes, it is incorporated


Darkness is correct that there were tropical feathers found in Pueblo ceremonial masks and some coral beads as well. They showed an active trade between the Pueblos (about 500 years ago) and Central America/Mexico. I saw some of the petroglyphs on the "two parrots" trail... quite intriguing.

Anthropologists and archaeologists weren't really aware of the true extent of these networks until about 40 years ago. Part of this is the colonial attitude, I believe.

("colonial", here, refers to a patronizing overlord sort of attitude and not the attitudes of our founding fathers. It's one of them weird academic terms that makes some folks scratch their heads the first time they see it.)

(added missing end quote tag)

[edit on Mon Dec 22 2008 by Jbird]



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by Byrd
 


Howdy Byrd

Yes just came back to board - after looking up what you just posted about. Its interesting, as I had not come across that claim before. Did the finding of the beads and feathers drive a search for a trade route or was that discovered by a different research path?

Yeah lots of old terms still floating around. Came across Zinjanthropus a few days ago and that threw me until I realize it had been renamed the Australopithecus Boise. Negroid and the other 19th 'oids cause problems too - but we digress!

[edit on 22/12/08 by Hanslune]





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