I have to pay for food and rent and I am a law abiding tax paying citizen.
I do not see why it should be any different for them.

Originally posted by The Bald Champion
the point is???

Shall we not take steps to further prevent infectious diseases???

Maybe the cops should spray gonerrhia juice on everyone they pull over...

Or maybe if the rapist rapes again they would not give their victims the @#!# because they did not contract in first place.

How about castration for repeated offenders?

I think collecting would be a bigger pain in the arse than its worth. I say feed them the same slop every day morning noon and night. Then give them the option to work for a better meal. When they have the money, then they can have the option to buy a grilled cheese. If they work SUPER hard they can have enough to buy a cookie. On the same note, you can put them all in one cell with one potty, giving them the option of working hard to pay for their own cell. If nothing else it takes away any arguments about what is fair and what is not.

Its amazing how much of a motivator food is.

[edit on 21-12-2008 by mrsdudara]

again, mrsdudura, as i stated prior, by restricting peoples access to wholesome nutritious food you are inhibiting their ability to think clearly and rationally and to deal with stress reasonably. Studies have proven that whole and organic foods greatly increase peoples ability to reason and ration, and to deal with stress constructively.

The right to food should not mean the right to eat garbage, as it does in america. It should mean the right to eat nutritious wholesome food with all the vitamins and nutrients a body and mind need to work OPTIMALLY, not merely to survive. Clean chemical free water is equally a necessity.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by The Bald Champion
the point is???

Shall we not take steps to further prevent infectious diseases???

Maybe the cops should spray gonerrhia juice on everyone they pull over...

Or maybe if the rapist rapes again they would not give their victims the @#!# because they did not contract in first place.

How about castration for repeated offenders?

YES

I can do it... two bricks and a microphone.

We could then sell the ( ) to TACO BELL and put the money back into the program.

Originally posted by george_gaz
I have to pay for food and rent and I am a law abiding tax paying citizen.
I do not see why it should be any different for them.

I don't see why it should be any different for them either. Yet it is a lot different. They get unhealthy disgusting food despite the fact the judge did not specify that as a punishment. So, why should the food they get be so much different for them? The prison guards and the prisoners should be getting the SAME FOOD and the SAME AMOUNT of it! Unless for some reason it was specified to be different in their punishment, it is simply sadistic to give them crap food on purpose.

So again, to purposefully put additional punishments on a prisoner in order to get a fuzzy good feeling in side you falsely call "justice" is plainly sadistic. Sadism is about taking joy in other people's misery, and clearly a lot of people on ATS take a whole lot of joy in seeing people suffer beyond what the judge has specified their punishment to be.

Originally posted by chasm
The same high standards? Who's "everybody else"?

I don't have a right to Cable TV
I don't have a right to medical care
I don't have a right to three meals a day
I don't have a right to access to an up to date Law Library
I don't have a right to AC in the summer or heat in the Winter.

Everybody does not "get" these high standards.

I said high standard of basic needs. I never said anything about cable TV! I said "basic needs".

I very strongly believe everyone does have a right to access an up-to-date law library. Do you honestly think it is proper to subject someone to laws and then deny them access to what those laws actually are? Do you honestly think it is proper to take away one's means of defending them self in court? I would find such situations pitiful, sad, and pathetic... a true disgusting society to have to live with!

When you are holding someone against their will for any reason at all, the captor has a human right to be treated with the same standard of living in terms of needs as the very people who force them into captivity unless getting sub-standard health is part of the punishment. So who's standard of basic needs you ask? The people who are forcing them captive, that is who. So I would say they should be given the same basic needs as the police who arrested them if they are in jail. If they go to prison, then the judge is responsible and they deserve the same level of basic needs as the judge, unless a sub-standard condition is specifically part of their punishment verdict.

This means the same standard of medical care, the same standard of heating and cooling, the same standard of the number of meals a day, and the same standard of the level of clothing cover and laundry service.

All of you who have more sympathy for the criminals in prison than the victims of the criminals. I'm talking to you. I'm sure most of you have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc as well.

So how would you feel if somebody were to rape your mother and murder her in cold blood? Let's see how liberal you are if that were to happen to you. Are you going to want said perpetrator to suffer or feel good after committing such a heinous act?

An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. The world's oldest form of punishment that has been in use since the inception of human-kind. And it's not going to go away.

As long as people live on this earth and desire the things that the law forbids them to have? There will ALWAYS be crime and violent acts. As well as the ramifications that result from said crime and violent acts.

We're human beings. Not bees. We don't operate on a hive mentality. So therefore it will always be the same. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. There's no way around it. Unless we all operated on a hive mentality.

[edit on 12/21/08 by Marked One]

Originally posted by Marked One
All of you who have more sympathy for the criminals in prison than the victims of the criminals. I'm talking to you. I'm sure most of you have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc as well.

So how would you feel if somebody were to rape your mother and murder her in cold blood? Let's see how liberal you are if that were to happen to you. Are you going to want said perpetrator to suffer or feel good after committing such a heinous act?

An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. The world's oldest form of punishment that has been in use since the inception of human-kind. And it's not going to go away.

As long as people live on this earth and desire the things that the law forbids them to have? There will ALWAYS be crime and violent acts. As well as the ramifications that result from said crime and violent acts.

We're human beings. Not bees. We don't operate on a hive mentality. So therefore it will always be the same. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. There's no way around it. Unless we all operated on a hive mentality.

[edit on 12/21/08 by Marked One]

Dude... the point is not loving criminals. The point is we have standards for a reason.
We live in a society, mankind changes and grows. What was expectable 1000 years ago is not expectable now. We are nor barbarians, we are AMERICANS in the 21st century.

What you my conservative person forget is that we progress. Otherwise we would still be stoning people, burning witches and holding town square executions. What if we conserved those traditions and did not liberate our views? At some point I am certain
you would find a time past, where the traditions of justice would be to radical for you to conserve.

At this point we have determined that we are a nation of laws and standards. Our method of punishment as determined by LAW, is the lose of ones time and restriction
of free movement. Once again sentencing is executed by lose of TIME and FREEDOM
OCCASSIONALY death.

NOT the lose of one's humanity.

NOT the lose of one's ability to survive.

So I remind you, it is not out of love for the offenders.

We are a nation of laws and standards - we do not HAVE to break our own rules
to enforce our laws. It is out of love for this idea.

Second the concept of modern punishment is to reform.
Logically how do you expect anyone violent, or not, to reflect reform if they have been
treated like beef for five years?

What is the point of prison for anyone?

If you are going to make monsters out of most why not just execute every criminal regardless of the crime?

I don't want people who have been treated like dogs on the streets.

Do you really think you could squeeze one single "CHANGED MAN" out of a prison without rules or standards??? ONE???

I repeat I don't want broken men MONSTERS with zero esteem coming out, ever.

I don't care if you put a thieving priest in there with APEMAN standards, he ain't coming out a thieving priest. He's coming out ANIMAL....


WHATS the point of laws if they do not apply to the righteous????



[edit on 22-12-2008 by The Bald Champion]

[edit on 22-12-2008 by The Bald Champion]

First of all, to the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing, well thats not our justice system anyhow.
How is it eye for an eye to give someone who sold a little marijuana to someone else several years of prison? Thats hardly eye for an eye...by your measurement what we should do is sell marijuana back to them, and that seems pretty just to me.
How is it "tooth for a tooth" to give a 18 year old boy who has consensual sex with his 15 year old girlfriend several years in prison? Tooth for tooth would be to make a 21 year old woman have sex with him...and that does seem more just to me, but no, we sentence him to years in prison, abuse, possibly rape, etc. So lets dont give me that eye for an eye bs.

And to the last poster stating its phooey that they deserve food that meets basic human nutritional requirements..... just because the sorry state of america says that there is little healthy nourishing food available by no means means that our prisoners deserve to be put on a diet that slowly debilitates their ability to reason clearly and handle stress well. We ALL deserve healthy food, INCLUDING our prisoners. In many places it is just as cheap or cheaper to get organic chicken and eggs, and locally and clean grown produce, so why cant they get it? Or better yet they could grow their own produce, its a much more spiritual experience and the food is much better for you that way too.....its a system used in other countries with great success and by itsself instills a sense of accomplishment and pride in the prisoners.

Originally posted by pexx421
Or better yet they could grow their own produce

They do. So get off that high horse.

I dont believe in communism.

I believe in the right to work however hard you want, and the right to reap what you sow.


Perhaps if those who were buying drugs spent their money on that organic yummy good for you food instead, they wouldnt have to worry about what they had to eat in prison.

oh, i see now. I wasnt getting it before. Lets abuse them, allow them to be raped, feed them crappy food, and this will make us and them better people. I dont see how i missed it before. While were at it, we can do that to psyche patients too! After all, its their fault for being crazy, and they dont need good food or treatment either. Oh wait, yeah thats right, many of our prisoners ARE psyche patients! I dont see us arresting and torturing the wealthy elite who have stolen all our money, been engaged in massive defrauding of our poor and middle class, legislated benefits for the corporations at the taxpayers expense, and passed toxic poisons through the FDA in return for kickbacks, so until justice is equal across the board, lets not talk about whats "fair" to the prisoners or not.

Until then it is to often a system that is used to punish and punish those that disagree with current legislation and laws, which often have nothing to do with right or wrong and are many times motivated by profit. When we say innocente, lets further define this as there are many people in prison who have NEVER HURT ANYONE, and they are being subject to possible rape abuse and torture, and you folk are ok with this.
It is far from an effective system, it does not matter what justifications you use, and im certain its not because we are too "NICE" to them, whatever you may think.

As some here pointed out, they are all someones children, someones husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, and what you wouldnt do to your own child you shouldnt consider doing to them. Someone asked me earlier what I would do if someone raped my wife or child, what i would want to do to them. I have taken the time to understand my humanity enough that i know what it would do to me if i gave in to wrath, which is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason, and took violent hateful vengeance against them. I would use force to stop them, and would likely kill them, however i would NOT subject them to the torment of a justice system like ours because i dont believe that pain or torment inflicted upon the defenseless teaches adults complex lessons other than hatred and violence.

To add, if you believe in the right to work as hard as you want and reap what you sow, then im sure you must not live in the US. Here those that work hardest and contribute most to society often get the least compensation, while those who learn to best manipulate the system and people are the ones who get compensated most. A small group of people have taken control of all the means of production, and use congress and lobbyists to keep those means of production in their own hands with regular attacks against alternative health, natural and healthy food, small farms, and small businesses.

As to the buying of drugs, it is my and everyones right to choose what we do or dont put in our body, it was NEVER our nations right to legislate this, regardless of which liberties they take (from us). The war on drugs is a system of control and profit, which destroys way more lives then the drugs themselves do, costs massive amounts of money, promotes violence and destruction, and has no noticeable effect on addiction.

Mrsdudara's responses are typical of those whose arguments stand on narrow grounds. First one little point of my arguement is disputed, the fact that apparently prisoners grow their own produce. Do they? Not by me, and not in many area's i have been in. If they do by you, then thats GREAT!
Next she pretends as if that one dispute negates the validity of my whole presentation, despite the fact that it does not even address the other valid points in my writing, nor does it truly dispute the point it was addressing. Then she makes a snide aspersion towards people spending money on drugs rather then on clean food, as if the majority of americans dont at some time spend money on drugs, alcohol, and other mind altering substances, and as such deserve whatever negative fate in life may befall them.

Nowhere have we seen in any of the articles above by anyone, how apparently, according to them, torturing and abusing prisoners more is what is needed, and how this is going to make our society better. Nowhere do we see them showing studies or any other evidence, that compared to more humane prisons in other countries, our prisons of rape and abuse are much more effective at turning our prisoners lives around and helping to be good loving citizens that are productive members of our society.
We live in a sick society full of sick people. Very few are the examples i see of wisdom, maturity, and loving kindness anywhere in daily life. Most people i come in contact with, old, young and all, are filled with confusion, fear, desperation, and often hate and anger. Women never learning to accept aging with wisdom struggle to remain young and in their mind attractive with massive alterations to the body. Men and women both never being able to find or understand their nature descend into alcoholism and addiction and often live the ends of their lives in misery, depression, and loneliness. And the best system we can come up with for "justice" is a system that specifically HURTS people to make them stop doing things, a thing that DAMAGES spirits and minds of both the victim and the perpetrator, has no noticeable success rate, destroys lives of relatively harmless offenders, and offers very little humanity. Fitting and appropriate. Unproductive and sad.

Originally posted by The Bald Champion

NOT the lose of one's humanity.

NOT the lose of one's ability to survive.

So I remind you, it is not out of love for the offenders.

We are a nation of laws and standards - we do not HAVE to break our own rules to enforce our laws. It is out of love for this idea.

Second the concept of modern punishment is to reform.
Logically how do you expect anyone violent, or not, to reflect reform if they have been treated like beef for five years?

What is the point of prison for anyone?
[edit on 22-12-2008 by The Bald Champion]

For you the point of prison is to treat them like guests at the Dubai Hotel. Believe me nobody is being treated like beef in Arpaio's prison. They ARE being subject to reform. And trust me it works. You don't believe me? Check it out. Don't take my word for it.

A nation of laws and standards? Tell that to the prison inmates who committed the crime in the first place. I'm sure they'd be eager to listen. And no; we don't break our own rules to enforce our laws. We seek and pursue our way to justice through loopholes in those rules. If you think that's breaking rules then that's your problem. Not mine. Even if we ARE breaking the rules it's because those rules were put in place by bleeding-heart liberals.

And finally? No. It's not out of love for the offenders. It is out of tough love. But you want to talk about loss of humanity, loss of dignity, and loss of the ability to survive, etc? What about the victims and the families of the victims who suffered at the hands of the individual responsible for the crime? (A bank teller who had the front-end of a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun aimed point-blank to their face and was demanded money. Or the family of a 14yr old girl who was raped and strangled.)

Why don't you talk to those people about loss of humanity, loss of dignity, and loss of the ability to survive and live a normal life without the burden of trauma and having to to pay profusely for the cost of psychological therapy and treatment for said trauma?

Tell them. Rest assured they'd be more than eager to listen.

"This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back." - Sheriff Joe Arpaio

The above comment by Arpaio sums it best. The food in prison might suck but guess what buddy? You're in prison. You want to talk about law? The law says that we must provide prisoners with a nutritious meal. Not a five-star meal. If they don't like it? They shouldn't commit crimes in the first place.

Listen if you don't like the way inmates are treated in our prisons then write to your congressman or representative. If you can write about it here you are surely more than capable of writing to your congressman.

(OH WAIT! Some of you CAN'T do that because you're from planet liberal--err--I mean Canada. You know who you are. No offense!)

[edit on 12/22/08 by Marked One]

Originally posted by pexx421
I dont see us arresting and torturing the wealthy elite who have stolen all our money, been engaged in massive defrauding of our poor and middle class, legislated benefits for the corporations at the taxpayers expense, and passed toxic poisons through the FDA in return for kickbacks, so until justice is equal across the board, lets not talk about whats "fair" to the prisoners or not.

You're equivocating a filibuster.

pixx, that is a very sweet view point. It would be a great one, IF this was the bright and shiney world you would like it to be.

The fact that you think our prisons are filled with a bunch of good people who are misunderstood and just need a hug is so..... Barney/Dr. Phil.