Noah's Ark, page 3

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reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 11:02 AM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by FlyersFan

LOL thanks for your reply, and your math still sucks, not an attack just an observation. you just posted Noah his wife and three sons and wives and still came up with 6, sorry to say but in MY WORLD that is 8 EVERY TIME...

The story which you either did not read or you think the Sumerian is it doesn't say what you say it says. See mankind has this word "Species" and mankind has seen fit to classify animals in this manner. And as is mans usual way of doing things, we interpret the information as to what we know, you know speciation. Did you know that there are over 15,000 species of worms, some say many more? Did you know they ARE ALL WORMS? So let's use the Biblical Definition and wording shall we?

Two of each KIND that have the BREATHE OF LIFE IN THEIR NOSTRILS...

Now we just narrowed it down to probably less than 15,000 animals and it's been clearly shown that the dimensions of Noah's Ark as given were way more than big enough to support 15,000 animals...

You say Polar Bears, a species of BEAR, I say two BEARS total and all of them came from those ORIGINAL TWO, the Bible says what I say.

Now by all means you can think however you like but let's not pretend that you can prove the Bible wrong, many people smarter than you or me have tried and they have not come up with anything...

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 11:09 AM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by FlyersFan

When will you people LEARN MATH, this s not a flame or a slam MODS, look at their Posts. They keep saying 6 people but they keep MENTIONING 8, am I the only one that is counting NOAH AND HIS WIFE or what? Lets cover this i a simple MANNER shall we...

1+1 = 2
2+2 = 4
3+3 = 6
4+4 = 8

Now let's use these simple math equations to prove am correct and therefore it is not a flame...

Noah + wife = 2
Shem + wife = 2
Ham + wife = 2
Japeth + wife = 2
_______________
2+2+2+2 = ? I say 8 but where oh where did I get this nonconformists number from??? MATH SKILLS..

If they can't add up to 8 in their posts why should I bother responding? That is a GREAT point, so I shall stop responding to the ones who cant get 4x2 = 8

There Mod I am done with them and I believe I have proven my point through a new science called MATH, well new to some it seems!

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 11:20 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
your math still sucks,... Noah his wife and three sons and wives and still came up with 6, sorry to say but in MY WORLD that is 8 EVERY TIME...

Then you have rather interesting math in 'your world'. (to quote you)

Re-read what I posted. Noah and his wife were beyond reproducing age. That leaves 3 pair of reproducing humans. Even if you included Noah and his wife as 'reproducers' and it were 4 pair - as you claim - that still is definately NOT enough of a reproducive human gene pool to be able to have healthily reproduced the human race - white, black, asian, etc.

The story which you either did not read

Already said ... I read it. A few times.

it's been clearly shown that the dimensions of Noah's Ark as given were way more than big enough to support 15,000 animals...

30,000. They all had mates. And I didn't say that I had a problem with how big of a boat it would be. I didn't even bring that up.

You say Polar Bears, a species of BEAR, I say two BEARS total and all of them came from those ORIGINAL TWO,

You missed the point. How'd the polar bears get to the North Pole? How'd the penguins get to antarctica? How'd the kangaroos get to Australia?

the Bible says what I say.

Your INTERPRETATION of the bible says what you say.

let's not pretend that you can prove the Bible wrong, many people smarter than you or me have tried and they have not come up with anything...

No errors in the bible?

Oh ... do you REALLY want to go there?

Errors in the bible

Bible contradictions

Holes in the Bible

The Skeptics Bible

Math Errors in the bible

More bible inconsistancies

Oh there is soooooooo much more!

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 11:29 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
When will you people LEARN MATH, .... Lets cover this i a simple MANNER shall we... If they can't add up to 8 in their posts why should I bother responding?

*sigh*

For the third time (or is it the fourth?) There were ALLEGEDLY 8 people on Noahs Ark. 6 were of reproductive age. 2 were too old. No matter if 6 is used - or 8 is used - that is still NOT a big enough gene pool to have procreated in a healthy manner the repopulation of the world and it definately does NOT explain the different races of black, white, asian.

I have proven my point

No. All you have proven is that you don't read what is posted.

Show how 3 pairs of reproducing humans could have been the basis for the re-population of the entire earth and how these 3 pairs of reproducing humans could have caused the different races. Show how the aboriginies, and the Islanders in the South Pacific, and the white nordics, and the Asians, and the black Africans and the Native American Indians, etc etc ALL came from these three pairs of reproducing humans and how they all got to their parts of the world - some living in complete isolation from the other parts - ... show how all this came about through three pairs of reproducing humans on one boat that landed at Mt. Ararat (or in that area).

If you can do that, then you will have proven a point. Otherwise ....

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 12:01 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by FlyersFan

Now we are going off Bible again aren't we? Noah and his wife were beyond reproducing age, and you gt this information from where Doctor?

Noah lived 935 years and had MANY sons and daughters.
Noah Lived about 900 or so years as he was 500 when he had Shem, Ham and Japeth.

Genesis 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

And he lived 350 years after the flood.

Ge 9:28 ¶ And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

So I guess my question is simple, if he had 3 children named at 500 why would he be sterile because he spent one year on a boat?

Or are you putting into it what you want it too say, this I find is the biggest problem with most people, they like to put THEIR understanding of Today's world on the peoples of ancient times. And not just in the Bible, we can NOT make a pyramid like the Great Pyramid nor the Mayans Pyramids today, yet many call them less developed, not very advanced or some such nonsensical term...

So everyone knows why you MUST INCLUDE Noah and his wife, they had children pre flood times probably near their full ages...

You have proven nothing but Biblical Illiteracy bad math skills...

[edit on 12/19/2008 by theindependentjournal]

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 12:29 PM by Hanslune

what the Qu'ran has to say about Noah

Genesis's Noah lives for a total of 950 years, with the Flood coming in his six hundredth year; the Quran's Noah is already 950 at the time of the Flood, and has spent this time preaching the singleness of God. It is mankind's obduracy which eventually brings the wrath of God on the unbelievers.

The theme of the Quranic story is the unity of Allah and the need to seek peace with Him. The narrative element concentrates exclusively on the Flood story, and does not include the Genesis account of Noah's drunkenness. The possibility of the Curse of Ham narrative is in fact implicitly excluded: the Quranic Noah has two sons, not three, and that son does not join his father despite Noah's final plea to be saved ("O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers!"); instead he flees to the mountains, and God tells Noah that this is because he is an evildoer. (In later Islamic tradition the son is given the name Canaan).

ex]

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 12:40 PM by FlyersFan

I thought you weren't going to respond.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Noah and his wife were beyond reproducing age, and you gt this information from where Doctor?

Pick a documented scientific source - just a few of many -

age and fertility
Factors affecting fertility - age and environment
Fertility/advanced Fertility
Mens fertility declines with age
Oxford Journal
Another Oxford Journal
Info
genetic defects in children of older parents
age and human reproduction
Reproductive Endocrunology

Noah Lived about 900 or so years as he was 500 when he had Shem, Ham and Japeth.

So I guess my question is simple, if he had 3 children named at 500 why would he be sterile because he spent one year on a boat?

1 - I never said he was sterile because he spent one year on a boat. He and his wife were beyond reproducing because of their AGE. Although stress does effect fertility so it is entirely possible that spending a year stuck on a boat like that could have also affected his sterility.

2 - Noah could have had those three children at age 20 or 30 or 40 ... but not age 500. That's impossible.

So everyone knows why you MUST INCLUDE Noah and his wife, they had children pre flood times probably near their full ages...

Wrong. And btw - you don't know what age Noah had those three children.

You have proven nothing but Biblical Illiteracy bad math skills...

WRONG. (and still tossing insults

) and you still have FAILED to show how all the different ethnic groups and all the different peoples in all the different places of the world - some who were (and some still are) isolated - could have come from 3 (or even 4 .. if it makes you happy) reproducing pairs of humans.

Prove it.

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:02 PM by Hanslune

As noted above the Qu'ran which Mohammed said was given to him by God says Noah was 950 years old and had only two children.

Who ya gonna believe!

Flyer - won't the response be to the population question that, "God can do anything he wants"?

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:07 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by Hanslune

Interesting as more evidence that the koran was spoofed by captive Rabbis. The whole of the koran is riddled with these types of historical inaccuracies, but none the less interesting.

I didn't give Noah's age because I can not effectively guess the ages given are 850, but that does not say whether it includes Shem's life til he was old or the 120 ears it too Noah to build it or the year they were on it so I gave the KJV Biblical account for age and added 50 years for good measure..

I don't think that Noah ever attained the age of Melchizedek who is the oldest one named in the Bible, who most likely died in the flood as did Cain. Which is interesting in itself, if you remember that God put a mark on Cain that no man would kill him lest he pay for it big time. So God killed Cain with his Flood, saving any human from the punishment fr killing Cain...

Thanks for the koran version, it is interesting and good fodder...

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:12 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by FlyersFan

So just say you think the story is false and get out, if we are gonna talk about the BIBLICAL STORY of NOAH'S ARK I would suggest knowing the STORY and using it as reference NOT something else.

If I wanted to know what so called scientists think about age and child bearing years I would start a thread. But I am talking about the BIBLE story of NOAH'S ARK...

Thank you now everyone knows where you stand... For those that didn't get it Flyersfan doesn't believe the Bible or the Story of a worldwide flood that Most Geologists say happened... Let's not forget the over 270 myths all over the world.

As for why I responded I guess I am a glutton for punishment or I like to educate the Biblically Illiterate, whatever the case, it is what it is!

Have a great day!

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:16 PM by Hanslune

types of historical inaccuracies,

The story of Noah, his age and the ark would not be deemed 'historic', mythical would be more appropriate.

Muslim scholars consider the bible to be corrupted or distorted. So how do you know the bible version is correct and the Qu'ran version is incorrect?

By the way I'd like to see that math too.

Story of a worldwide flood that Most Geologists say happened...

Hans: Actually they don't only a limited number of Creationist geologists say that. The concensus is no biblical deluge.

[edit on 19/12/08 by Hanslune]

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:22 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by FlyersFan

I guess I answered you because I am a glutton for punishment or I like to educate the Biblically Illiterate whatever the case may be it is what it is...

Some interesting Biblical facts about the flood, it probably killed both Cain and Melchizedek he oldest man named in the bible. Cain had a mark and whoever killed him, if you recall, would suffer greatly so God spared any human that and killed him himself in the flood.

As to your science links I will only say we are talking about Noah's Ark, if I wanted some doctors guess on bearing children and what ages I would start a thread on it, but since it is a NOAH'S ARK story I have stayed within the bounds of the discussion.

Now everyone knows, FlyerFan doesn't believe the Bible but he likes to misquote it and ridicule it in threads started by others...

And if you want a scientific answer to the flood look at POPULATION of Earth and how long would it take to get to 6 billion...

Heres a population Growth study accepted by scientists

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 01:29 PM by Hanslune

Your source doesn't exactly support your postion there IJ

It turns out that if r = 0.0047 then after 4344 years we would wind up with about 5.6 billion people, which is close enough. After substituting the values for P and r into the above equation we are at liberty to try out different values for n to obtain the population at different times. At the time the Israelites entered Canaan, for instance, we get a world population of 2024! By the time you divide that up between Egypt, Canaan, the rest of the world, and Israel, that leaves maybe 6 or 7 people for the Israeli army! If we go back to the time that the Hykos were expelled from Egypt, in 1560 BC, we get a world population of 325 people!

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 02:06 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by Hanslune

I know what my source says, it also says that Creationist Scientists have released different information. I didn't think you would take the site that posts my view, even though it is scientists that did the work. So I posted the link that admits we Creationists have answered the population growth question, and a site that offers a different opinion on it...

I am not anti information or looking at all the information so I will often post both sides of an issue. How else can we decide what is right if we only ever hear one side? I think you would agree with that on the surface, more information makes for better informed decisions... I only try to inform more on some things, and I am sure that long timer ATS'RS know that Religion and Politics are my subjects although I also tend to like the political conspiracies too...

I aint here for a fight just here to get out more and different information than most get elsewhere. If you can see my profile you would see that I have VERY FEW enemy's listed on my side. This is because I want to hear all sides of most issues so I can better be informed and fluctuate my ideas or not based on that new information...

In this thread I have tried to stick to the Biblical Narrative as that is the most well known version of the story, although I could post links to the Mayan flood story or the Hawaiian one or Chinese. I didn't think those narratives/myths were pertinent to most people's understanding of the story. So if I seemed short with you, it was not anger, or even your posts, it was frustration at trying to put current days ideas onto something said to have occurred over 4000 years ago... I did this also because there are scientists and doctors out there that claim that recovered bones of ancestors are really just 400-900 year old humans... See Jack Cuozzo in Google if you are interested in this side note...

So anyways I aint mad at you, I will still respond to your posts in other threads, or not depending n the topic. I hold no ill will for you or yours and wish you nothing but good fortune and knowledge. I just thought it was best in this topic to stick to the story most well known and most widely debated, that would be the KJV Bible and particularly Genesis 5- 9 or whatever, I don't have my Bible handy for an exact point in the Bible. As I probably stated I take a lot of pain killers for back issues and my memory isn't always perfect...

Hope you feel the same about me as I feel about you and you have no anger towards me...

GOOD DAY!

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 02:35 PM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Hanslune
As noted above the Qu'ran which Mohammed said was given to him by God says Noah was 950 years old and had only two children.

Excellent information.

won't the response be to the population question that, "God can do anything he wants"?

That is always the #1 response when people are shown scientific evidence that disputes their position. The #2 response is 'you bad evil unbeliever!'

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
If I wanted to know what so called scientists think about age and child bearing years ...

Hey buddy ... YOU said 'which doctor'. I answered your question.
And you STILL have not answered mine. PROVE that 3 (or 4)
reproductive couples in the middle east area of the world could
reproduce in a healthy DNA manner enough people to repopulate
the entire planet - full of nordics, blacks, asians, etc ...

For those that didn't get it Flyersfan doesn't believe the Bible or the Story of a worldwide flood that Most Geologists say happened... Let's not forget the over 270 myths all over the world.

Again - you didn't read my posts.

I'll repeat ... try to remember this time ...

- I said that there is evidence of a worldwide flood - or perhaps evidence of a lot of major regional floods. I already said 'duh' to the 270 flood myths.

- As to your blanket statement that 'flyersfan doesn't believe the bible' ... that's a lot of audacity for you to claim that. The FACT is that the bible is true, and false, and myth, and legend, and history, and agenda as well as having parts that are deeply spiritual and mystical, and other parts that are pure rubbish.

AND WHAT I BELIEVE DOESN'T MATTER ... You still have not proven how 3 (or 4) pairs of humans of reproductive age could reproduce in a healthy DNA manner all the races of the earth in the amount of time the bible gives. You also have FAILED to show how the ark carrying those animals could have possibly carried enough animals to have them be able to reproduce and to get those animals back to their isolated locations - such as antarctica and australia.

Again - PROVE IT.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Cain had a mark and whoever killed him, if you recall, would suffer greatly so God spared any human that and killed him himself in the flood.

That's presumption on your part.

it is a NOAH'S ARK story I have stayed within the bounds of the discussion.

It IS within the bounds of discussion. Showing the human fertility rates and abilities goes to DISPROVE the possiblity of the bible story.

FlyerFan doesn't believe the Bible but he likes to misquote it and ridicule it in threads started by others...

1 - I have not misquoted anything. The fact is that the bible disproves itself over and over. Take Genesis .. two different creation myths. Which one is correct? Or are neither correct?

2 - I'm not a 'he'. I'm a 'she'.

look at POPULATION of Earth and how long would it take to get to 6 billion...

You still have not answered - how can 3 (or 4) reproductive couples reproduce in a healthy DNA manner ALL THE RACES in the world - and all the peoples - including those living in Isolation - in the time given by the bible.

Answer - they can't.

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 02:41 PM by Hanslune

Howdy FF

It would appear that theindependentjournal has been taken up by an early rapture. His last message is a rather long post to say, oops!

Nice reading your material.

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 02:56 PM by theindependentjournal

reply to post by Hanslune

I wasn't saying oops, I stand by the Biblical Narrative and remain in my strong BELIEF that the Earth is about 6k years old and that Noah did build an Ark etc etc...

It is just something that happened to me in between posts that made me think...

As i have stated somewhere, I do my son's baseball teams website and I therefore have a lot of contact with the Coach and such posting new additions all the time. Well I get this email that says there is something wrong with some flyer or whatnot and I responded, QUESTIONING what I could do to fix the situation and did I cause it. I thought the email was completely benign but the Coach called my wife and asked if I was mad at him that my email mad him think I was...

I have reread the email and can not see anger in it but this made me think...

Am I coming off as brash and hateful and angry to everyone when I type???

I posted that as a statement that I am not Angry, I do not intend to harm no one nor question their beliefs or sensibilities, I am not here for a fight and all that...

I am here for information and discussion I can not have with those around me in real life because they are not as informed or bright as the ATS norm seems to be... Just thought I should say I was sorry if I was coming off in unintended ways to others... I WAS APOLOGIZING FOR PETE'S SAKE!

Good Day!

EDIT - I don't believe in the rapture by the way, it's not in the (yup you guessed it). LOL

[edit on 12/19/2008 by theindependentjournal]

reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 03:33 PM by letthereaderunderstand

reply to post by Quiintus

Noah/No-akh means "Rest"

Instructions for Ark

Gen 6:13 And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And behold, I will destroy them along with the earth.
Gen 6:14 Make an ark of cyprus (see mistranslation) timbers for yourself. You shall make rooms in the ark; and you shall cover it with asphalt inside and out.
Gen 6:15 And you shall make it this way: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.
Gen 6:16 You shall make a window in the ark, and you shall finish it above to a cubit. And you shall set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third stories.

Picture of the Ark

Please note that it is Orion's Bow that is set in the heavens to remind us and not the "Rainbow".

Egyptian Cubit used to build the Ark, which is what Moses knew being raised Egyptian.

Mistranslation of "Gopher Wood"

Question over identity
Gen 6:14 states that Noah built the Ark of גפר (gofer, more commonly gopher) wood, a word not otherwise known in the Bible or in Hebrew. The Jewish Encyclopedia believes it was most likely a translation of the Babylonian "gushure i÷ erini" (cedar-beams), or the Assyrian "giparu" (reed).[1] The Greek Septuagint (3rd–1st centuries BC) translated it as xylon tetragonon, "squared timber".[2] Similarly, the Latin Vulgate (5th century AD) rendered it as lignis levigatis, "smoothed (possibly planed) wood".

Older English translations, including the King James Version (17th century), simply leave it untranslated. Many modern translations tend to favour cypress (although the word for "cypress" in Biblical Hebrew is brosh), following Adam Clarke, a Methodist theologian famous for his commentary on the Bible: Clarke cited the resemblance between Greek word for cypress, kuparisson and the Hebrew word gophar, although Greek and Hebrew are not related languages and the linguistic resemblance is superficial.

Other suggestions include pine, cedar, fir, ebony, wicker, juniper, acacia, boxwood, slimed bulrushes and resinous wood, and even American trees such as Cladrastis kentuckea, or American yellowwood, although this type of gopherwood has no known relation to the material of Noah's Ark.

Others, noting the physical similarity between the Hebrew letters g and k, suggest that the word may actually be kopher, the Hebrew word meaning "pitch"; thus kopher wood would be pitched wood. Recent suggestions have included a lamination process (to strengthen the Ark), or a now-lost type of tree, but there is no consensus.[3]

Kopher looks familiar, because it is where we derive "Coffin" from, which is what the ark is, A Coffin in which God finds Rest pleasing.

Peace

Another thing to not be confused on which is all a tower of Babel.

Covenant means "to make a compact/settlement, by passing between two pieces of flesh", some call it "Knockin boots" or "the nasty", either way it will deliver the true gospel, if you don't where protection.

Much love my friends...