Grandiose Schemes

Originally posted by CSquared288

I am not upset and I apologize if it seems that I am becoming so. However, you are talking without really saying anything.

but it only takes a few people who don't give a toss about things like that and they can wreak havoc on the rest of the community. hence we need laws, bylaws and all sorts of regulations to protect the greater community.

Please give me an example, in this context (as you seem to have some reason for saying this), of how a few people who don't care about personal responsiblity would wreak havoc if this system was nation-wide.

i gave you an example a few posts back. look what happened when a 6 point something earthquake hit india a couple of years ago. it seems they're allowed to put up any type of construction that will shelter them but when that earthquake hit ... they lost a lot of people due to those shonky buildings and shelters.

how many of the people lost there 'didn't' construct any of those shelters/building? i bet there were a few but if they were in the vicinity they would have died too no?

or put it this way. i bet you live in an area where there are building codes and regulations. say every type of construction in your area got totally deregulated due to your efforts. say you and 100 mates learned how to build and built a whole town in and around your area?

should everyone just "trust" that your buildings are safe?

Originally posted by ll__raine__ll
yes in an ideal world we'd all be allowed to do what we want and would be able to rely on "personal responsibility" to see us through.

Exactly the point of this thread if I am not mistaken: Personal Responsibility rather than government control. And is there something wrong with this?

but it only takes a few people who don't give a toss about things like that and they can wreak havoc on the rest of the community. hence we need laws, bylaws and all sorts of regulations to protect the greater community.

Just like in elementary school when the whole class got in trouble by the ignorant teacher for a few misbehaving children. Instead, the teacher should have handled the individual children that were misbehaving rather than the whole class, but what can the children do about it? overthrow the government...oops, I mean teacher?

Anyone that so desires can build their own home, provided it meets building codes relevant to their locale. Bypass those codes and you'll never be able to insure it. And, if it should harm another, expect to loose everything you may own or will ever earn for the rest of your life.

The way we build homes though is ridiculous. Wood rots. It burns too. It also requires many nails to hold it all together. It's more labor intensive than it should be to build them too. They also blow away in a strong storm because nails are used. And the weirdest thing is they appreciate in value as they age and rot, which makes no sense either. The whole industry is screwed up. So is society. Find a cave, one will be required when 2012 rolls around anyhow.

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by ll__raine__ll
lots of countries either don't have building codes or don't enforce them. but then when they get hit with a magnitude 6 earthquake, such as india did not so long ago, hundreds of thousands of people die .... why do you think that is?

People that live in countries like these will disagree, because they do not have the money to follow the codes. Some people have to focus their income on things like food. You can make excuses for why mandatory codes are best, but those who cannot afford houses like that are either forced to break the law or go homeless and ultimately many more lives in the predicted future would be lost due to homelessness than to earthquakes.

they won't disagree ... they're poor, not stupid. if they know anything about anything they know their homes won't stand the tests of time. but of course, as you say, they address their immediate needs.

in our countries though ... our immediate needs such as food, water etc are already addressed and we keep striving to make everything else better. that includes our accommodations and other dwellings. they HAVE to be safe and that safety has to be guaranteed. that's what the government does.

Originally posted by CSquared288
Instead of hiring contractors or carpenters to build houses, therefore forcing you to either borrow excessively or pay through the nose, why is the average American not able to construct their own shelter? I figure the government could fund clinics or companies whose sole purpose is to educate you on all aspects of home building and provide materials (or means to obtain materials) so that a person may construct their own house.

While I sympathize with your core-sentiment CS...in isolation, the gradual affect of this 'hypothetical' on the livelihood of approx 8 million wage and salary workers, and 2 million self-employed...kinda speaks for itself. While I advocate self-reliance, and the decentralization of economic/political power...consider the overall economic impact of your solution?

If your radical restructuring were actually in the offing, as a retired cement contractor, I propose we start with clinics whose sole purpose is to educate the average citizen on all aspects of the legal-system. Surely the country could survive with a few less lawyers.

Have you hugged your plumber today?

in our countries though ... our immediate needs such as food, water etc are already addressed and we keep striving to make everything else better. that includes our accommodations and other dwellings.

yea but how well are they addressed when the only means of obtaining food, water, shelter, clothing, energy, etc, is to go to someone else and say 'hey, I need this. Can you build/get/create it for me?'

Why isn't it 'hey, I need this. I'll go figure out how to build/get/create this.'

they HAVE to be safe and that safety has to be guaranteed. that's what the government does.

Why? why can't we do it? sure the government could be there to help us along by providing information and resources (perhaps on safe building standards?) but why is it that we MUST defer responsibility to some other entity, namely our govt?

reply to post by ll__raine__ll


So if it is the government's responsibility to keep us safe then why is it not mandatory that everyone have a dome home which is perhaps the safest home of all rather than any kind they like which may not last "the test of time". After all, the building codes aren't perfect, some homes are destroyed even with them by tornadoes which are much more common than earthquakes. And while we let the government control the safety of our homes why don't we put our babies in government custody so that no harm comes to them, and eat from a government regulated menu everyday so that we are healthy too?

While I sympathize with your core-sentiment CS...in isolation, the gradual affect of this 'hypothetical' on the livelihood of approx 8 million wage and salary workers, and 2 million self-employed...kinda speaks for itself. While I advocate self-reliance, and the decentralization of economic/political power...consider the overall economic impact of your solution?

I am simply asking for ideas. I fully understand that there is no viable way to implement any of the radical change needed to fix this country with destroying basically everything.

But sharing ideas is definitely a good start. All actions started with ideas.

If your radical restructuring were actually in the offing, as a retired cement contractor, I propose we start with clinics whose sole purpose is to educate the average citizen on all aspects of the legal-system. Surely the country could survive with a few less lawyers.

like that. I agree wholeheartedly. That could very well be a great first step into changing what we have. Even if it doesn't, wouldn't life in general be much better if we had a government that did that?

those are the types of ideas i'm looking for.

and i think ill hug my plumber tomorrow

Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by ll__raine__ll

 

So if it is the government's responsibility to keep us safe then why is it not mandatory that everyone have a dome home which is perhaps the safest home of all rather than any kind they like which may not last "the test of time". After all, the building codes aren't perfect, some homes are destroyed even with them by tornadoes which are much more common than earthquakes. And while we let the government control the safety of our homes why don't we put our babies in government custody so that no harm comes to them, and eat from a government regulated menu everyday so that we are healthy too?

when i speak of "the government" ... i'm not talking about your people in the whitehouse and/or our people in the beehive or other equivalents in whatever country. i'm speaking of your local officials on the ground who are responsible for carrying out the duties that you all voted them in to do!

what? you didn't vote for them? i happen to know that your little communities ... just like ours, DO have individual community votes.

i know when all goes wrong you might like to look at someone else to blame for the hardships but ... this might be a good time to look at this "personal responsibility" that the OP keeps speaking of.

we may have voted them in be we sure as hell didn't tell them they could squander our money. that was a choice of their own independent of the will of the people.

you can't spot corruption until the corrupt deeds have already taken place.

and for some reason you believe that this is restricted to the upper echelons of our governing bodies. you are mistaken.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

AND, darn it all, this post is about ideas for the betterment of our civilization. please post some. we all know the world has gone to hell.

[edit on 15-12-2008 by CSquared288]

Originally posted by CSquared288
we may have voted them in be we sure as hell didn't tell them they could squander our money. that was a choice of their own independent of the will of the people.

you can't spot corruption until the corrupt deeds have already taken place.

and for some reason you believe that this is restricted to the upper echelons of our governing bodies. you are mistaken.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

AND, darn it all, this post is about ideas for the betterment of our civilization. please post some. we all know the world has gone to hell.

[edit on 15-12-2008 by CSquared288]

i honestly don't mean to be the one to stick up for the powers that be that oppress us.

i guess i'm just on the fence about where the lines should be drawn.

you mentioned 'housing' in your first post and that's something i know a little bit about so sorry if i've rained on your parade any.