It's Official Now: Iraq is a QUAGMIRE

I'm pretty much your average news consumer and moderate to left leaning couch pundit, but after watching the news this weekend I can't see how anyone can feel good about the direction the so-called liberation of the Iraqi people is going.

I'm sure the board bullet biters will say everything's just fine, but for me I'm genuinely surprised just how hopeless Iraq is becoming.

Forget Al Queda, forget "dead enders", forget "insurgents", forget everything the administration and the retired General brigade on TV has told you.

We're fighting the Shiites. Seemingly all of them. And once we murder Al-Sadr (which we will), it's a full blown holy war. :shk:

If it makes you feel good you can quote how many more Americans died from handguns last year than the Iraqi war, or talk about what a terrible dictator Saddam was, blah, blah, blah...

But it doesn't fix this mess. I remember Rumsfeld promising dancing in the streets.

Mission Accomplished

your right, rant. it's now a tribal power grab and it looks like
the shi'a may work with the sunni, to some degree to
force the coali' to get out. once that's done, the kurds
will $hit themselves and turkey will have a refugee crisis.
and so the dominos keep falling...
S.

I think the entire facade will unravel itself before 6/30/04 comes around. if and when the US pulls out, that's when the # could hit the fan. im thinking this will happen before that time period, but I strongly hope that it doesnt. I really hope that peace can be achieved in that country and that all sanctions are lifted. the indirect torture of the iraqi population has to end once and for all.

if the US decides to stay in after 6/30/04... then... well... they better up the hazard pay to the people over there.

That's what you get when you elect a "dumb thuggish PIG" to the White House. But, you can't tell the repugnants that.

You know, after all the times we have funded coups, you'd think we would have gone that route a few years ago.

January 2002 sounded good to me.

Place requirements on the new government in return for our help.

Cost effective? Much more so.

Dead Americans? Nope..... NICE

America looking like a bunch of assholes? Not as much (not nearly).

What the hell was the problem? It was all lining up so nicely. I wouldn't have taken long either by the way reports are coming in about the "corruption" in the ranks and "faux" weapons programs.

Leaping before you look is a good way to get Americans killed for nothing.

Must be Clinton's fault. Or maybe Richard Clarkes fault. Anyones fault but this administration's...

If I would blame ANYBODY it would be daddy bush he had them down and people cheering in the streets all he had to do was arm the kurds like he promised themn and we would not have this problem right now

It's getting worse over there, day by day. Why the hell they waited nearly a week to retaliate is crazy. "Studying the videotapes to make sure they identify the guilty" is the excuse. In the meantime, a dozen more marines are killed.

So we waited a week, gave them advance notice, which accomplished two things:

Gave the guilty a chance to leave and regroup
Made us look like a paper tiger

We knew things like this were going to happen. I had full faith in our military's ability to handle these situations. I am very quickly losing faith in the leadership of the military over there. And they take their orders from Rumsfeld.

I still believe in what we're doing. I am losing faith in how we're going about doing it.

KJ hit the nail half way through.

We are the Coup Makers of Legend. As KJ indicated, an Iraqi overthrow would have been somewhere on the easy scale between the one we just pulled off in Haiti and the one we've been attempting in Venezuela. Venezuela is tough because, hey, they are already a democracy. The whole "Corrupt" Chavez thing is a tough pin as well since the streets get filled with his supporters each bungled overthrow. The only ones screaming for his ouster, beside Otto Reich ( not just a fascist, but also a NAZI, IMO), are the ones in Bush's favorite tax bracket equivalent down there.

So, we didn't stage a coup because:

- the 12 years of bombing sorties on Iraq have kept the Military Industrial Complex very well fed.

- PNAC's goal of establishing a massive US forces staging area in the region HAD TO BE FED

- The Puppet government was going in either way, as it is now, this just provide more ROI.

Just heard an excuse for why they didn't arrest that cleric earlier; the warrant has been outstanding for several months: "One explanation is that the judicial system is in disarray over there and they weren't prepared to take him into custody".

But...we can pull Saddam, a much bigger fish, out of a spider hole and into custody????? Makes no sense, it's just a poor excuse.



[Edited on 5-4-2004 by jsobecky]

America deserves everything that its getting in Iraq, and when I say America I mean the American government. They started a pointless and completely unjust war in Iraq and are now being made to pay for it.

Things will gradually get worse in Iraq and the violence will continue. I hope the American people realise just what a huge mistake George Bush has made before the next election.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Must be Clinton's fault. Or maybe Richard Clarkes fault. Anyones fault but this administration's...

Yeah Im just waiting for the Bush apologists to storm this thread and start spreading their Bull$hit like they always do.

I suppose some of the fear that people had 1 year ago is finally becoming proven true.

This is a long thread many different articles from different journalists...

This quagmire we talk about has only gotten worse since u.s military has gotten over there. Nobody is to blame except the bush administration, military top guns, and Ariel Sharon...

We won't find the truth on CNN aka CIA...
We don't find the truth on Fox either... They are pro Bush administration and will twist the truth to fit their agenda as well...


All news stations do nothing but twist and turn the truth in order to mold it into their own agenda...
Let's take some time out to review what some independant journalists have to say that have been to Iraq, and know whats on the Iraqi people's minds....
Below are clippings... You can find more and the website below...... Just because it's rense doesn't mean the authors aren't credible... If you want to believe in the disinfo turn your stations to cnn,fox,and msnbc.. If you want the truth keep reading.



Bad news
By Nir Rosen
Reason Online
3-27-4


By Nick Wadhams
Associated Press Writer
3-27-4
Article #3UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- Several United Nations agencies may be forced to cut back or end humanitarian work in the Gaza Strip because of Israeli restrictions on their movement into and out of the territory, a U.N. statement said Friday.
By Manuel Valenzuela
Axis of Logic Contributing Editor
Online Journal
3-28-4
"Anti-occupation, anti-apartheid and anti-dehumanization is not anti-Semitism nor anti-Israel. Pro-peace, pro-human rights and pro-freedom is not pro-Palestinian. The power of freedom is pointing out when it is being denied. The search for justice and equality comes not from hiding from fear of criticism but rather from taking the road less traveled up the mountain of truth." -Manuel Valenzuela

What were Sharon and the Israeli government thinking when they decided to decapitate Hamas through the assassination of its founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin? If the state sponsored murder of Yassin was not so recklessly self-defeating, one might be inclined to think that Sharon is on a mission to implode the state of Israel.

The evaporation of a wheelchair-laden Yassin through American Apache helicopter missiles underscores the vicious cycle the state of Israel has thrust upon itself for years on end. Its ceaseless terror-inducing actions on an occupied and resisting people continue to haunt it and its own citizens; its continued oppression, violence and dehumanization on the indigenous people of Palestine inevitably always boomerangs, yet Israel does not relent, nor understands, nor seems to care about the consequences of its actions.

As if addicted to perpetual death, fear and violence, the state of Israel continues to escalate a war it cannot win, an occupation it cannot escape and a state of siege it does not fully care to understand. Israel has through the years only increased its oppression of a population it cannot erase, no matter how hard it tries to cleanse the Holy Land of its native inhabitants. It continues to masochistically seek the principle of kill and be killed, of cause and effect and action and reaction, making one wonder if suffering and hardship are necessary ingredients for life in the Middle East. For decades Israel has tried everything to no avail, collective punishment, virtual imprisonment, economic genocide, killing, maiming, oppressing, occupying, cleansing and dehumanizing. Does it not see that her continued actions are leading not to the "promised land" but rather straight to hell on Earth and that life is only getting harder and much less safe?
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Several thousand Iraqis protested the closure of a newspaper Sunday, chanting anti-U.S. slogans and burning American flags outside the newspaper's office in Baghdad.

The U.S.-led civil administration in Iraq closed the Baghdad newspaper Al Hawsa for 60 days, accusing its publishers of inciting violence against coalition troops.

The paper is published by followers of prominent Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

"If the Coalition forces are going to keep on presenting us with such messages... they can just dream about any sort of end to terrorism," a statement from the newspaper said. "And they can also dream that we will stay quiet and step down from what we believe."



There has been no 'victory' we have not won, in fact the entire quagmire has only gotten deeper, and that region of the world in its entirety has become far more dangerous. Today it is far less secure a place than ever before-ask anyone who lives in the Middle East.

Look at the Israeli-Palestinian situation, which thanks to our support of the daily terrorism that the Israeli's are reigning down upon the captive state of Palestine which is now beginning to open the next chapter in a new global conflict. Where's the diplomacy we were once so famous for? It's been replaced with Shock & Awe, and our cowardly compliance with the long-range goals of extreme right wing elements in the government of Israel. To this end the Bush administration has squandered billions upon billions of the public's money without any pubic, or congressional discussions.

The USA was formerly considered to be the leading nation in the world. We were seen as a positive force for peace and potentially as a blueprint for prosperity and life. Now we are seen by most around the planet as the greatest threat to peace in the world today. And we can thank the Bush administration for this change in just four long years, of war, war, and lots more war.

The Contessa of Lies should be subpoenaed to testify in open court and arrested for obstruction of justice if she refuses: She should also be followed by all her fellow travelers in this administration, until we get to the bottom of this sordid and criminal event.

George W. Bush has said that he "owns" 911. Great, then let him begin to pay for that 'ownership' with the truth of what happened on that day.

kirwan The Contessa of Lies
US Closes Iraq Paper - No
Most of the 1.3 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are partly dependent on aid handouts, and stopping shipments there would be a disaster. More Iraqi information

Okay all you "rense" qouting 20/20 hindsight armchair quarterbacks,

Quoting TrueLies,
"The U.S.-led civil administration in Iraq closed the Baghdad newspaper Al Hawsa for 60 days, accusing its publishers of inciting violence against coalition troops."

True and prudent, but maybe pushed the right button - I'll explain later.

Again quoting TrueLies,
"The paper is published by followers of prominent Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr."

ABC polling done in february shows Muqtada al-Sadr has very little real support in Iraq,
ABC News Story
"In terms of al-Sadr, a bare 1 percent of Iraqis name him as the national leader they trust most. On Iran, just 3 percent name it as a model for Iraq in the coming years, and just 4 percent say it should play a role in rebuilding Iraq."

"The Iraq poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England. Interviews were conducted in person, in Arabic and Kurdish, among a random national sample of 2,737 Iraqis age 15 and up from Feb. 9-28. The results have a two-point error margin."

In fact al-Sadr is a tool of the Iranian mullahs, It's worth emphasizing that this is factional fighting, not popular uprising, and that Sadr is not particularly popular outside his own faction.

Sistani appealed for Sadr to stop all violence
Iraqs Leading cleric Says.......
"We asked Moqtada (al-Sadr) to stop resorting to violence, occupying public buildings and other actions that make him an outlaw. He insists on staying on the same course that could destroy the nation."

From WND Article
What the other news accounts left out was one significant, but well-established fact: Al-Sadr works for Iran. He is an Iranian agent. His authority comes from Iran.

Last April, an Iranian cleric, Kadhem al-Husseini al-Haeri, issued a religious edict and distributed to Shiite mullahs in Iraq, calling on them "to seize the first possible opportunity to fill the power vacuum in the administration of Iraqi cities."

The edict, or fatwa, issued April 8, 2003, showed that Shiite clerics in Iraq are receiving significant direction from Iran. The edict said that Shiite leaders have to "seize as many positions as possible to impose a fait accompli for any coming government."

Is this a Quagmire as RANT asserts, Is it Bush's Tet - not in any sense of the word in my opinion.

Now to what I said I would explain earlier,

I don't know if the Bush administration is as strategically inclined as this suggests, but to have deliberately brought on last-ditch mayhem from armed extremists while full troop strength is present - rather than a year from now - is a brilliantly calculated risk. Al-Sadr, particularly, was basically handed the brush to paint himself with crosshairs.

But I can see the liberal headline: "BUSH MISLEADS SUNNI AND SHIITE EXTREMISTS."

"Bush lied -- terrorists died!" That works for me.

i'm kind of getting tired about this whole postwar thing. y don't we leave their country to rot. if they don't want us, f*ck them. it's their fault for kicking us out.

You know, after all the times we have funded coups, you'd think we would have gone that route a few years ago.

January 2002 sounded good to me.

Bravo... Unfortunately, we've got a pres who is seemingly inept in matters of espionage, which is ESPECIALLY appalling, considering his dad was once head spook.....

Thats right silQ, al-Quaida would love to have a new base of operations covering several hundred thousand square miles, maybe they'll find the WMD and put it to proper use - no sense letting it rot eh!

Interesting discussion, but I have to ask, Do you think Iraq is really worse in the long run? Everything will stabilize, whether that takes American involvement or not, Iraq will be a better place without a Baathist Dicatatorship.

I honestly think that it takes more than a year and seven-hundred-odd deaths to genuinely establish a "quagmire". Viet Nam was a quagmire, World War II might have been called one on some fronts, but Iraq isn't; not yet.

I'm not saying that it won't become a "quagmire" (Damn, I am getting sick of that word), but as it stands, it's been quick and clean, and we're getting our job done. The only obstacle remaining in our bid to establish a democracy is the sheer unwillingness of Islamic extremists to accept such a government.