Hubris: The Arrogance of Conviction

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
To know nothing isn't even to know oneself. No, I think the truly wise are those who readily admit they don't know everything, and do so emphatically, with the utmost conviction.

The empty vessel waits to be filled, the closed fist cannot receive.

To be empty is to be free of the self impetus.

Jais Guru Deva Om.

Ooooooommmmm.

To be void of conviction is to be free from accusation and unaccusing. To be empty of righteousness is to see all as equal.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/444ec7fafdbc.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e55df44b8480.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
The empty vessel waits to be filled, the closed fist cannot receive.
To be empty is to be free of the self impetus.

To be empty is also to be free of metaphors.

Wow... this thread came back after a dormant time... interesting.


Thanks for the updates...

Here is an update of my own.


I have found that many peoples's motives are formed by their beliefs. In many ways this creates spiritual contortionists as these same people attempt to mold their motives to their beliefs. This is the root of hypocrisy.

What if you form your beliefs based on your motives?

reply to post by visible_villain

That's hilarious!

-----------------------

To the OP,

Of course our motives are driven by our beliefs, everything we do, say and are BEING, is rooted in our beliefs, about ourselves, others the world, our reason, purpose, about love, relationships, goals, objectives, it's all beliefs and it's highly motivating. Therefore, it is important to understand and be fully aware of one's beliefs and to choose wisely.

Our internal map of reality is largley made of of beliefs. Beliefs and values. What's important is to remember that we HAVE them, but are not neccessarily them in and of themselves, and if our maps are open to new information, then those beliefs will only evolve over time, and grow more sophisticated, and either more, or less congruent with reality the way it really is.

But only a foolish person would try to deny that they are not motivated by their beliefs.

What's with you OP. Why don't you say what you want to say explicitely, instead of beating around the bush. Clear communication is important, maybe the ONLY thing, since everyone's beliefs and point of view varies to one degree or another.

I sense you have an axe to grind against people of faith, for example.. so say whatever you need to say. The veiled allusions to hypocrisy based on beliefs and motivations is attempting to convey a judgement on a certain group. About WHOM are you REALLY speaking and what specific experience or experiences have you had with these people?


[edit on 19-5-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to OP

You make and defend your case with great conviction. I thoroughly approve.

But what I meant to ask you was: where exactly in Plato is Socrates reported as having said 'true knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'?

Could you direct us to the relevant passage, please? Many thanks.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Hey, nice thread and great thinkers all around.
This thread kind of complements my own thread here.

I completely agree with you, and i want to thank you about
this new perception (for me) of the ego 'trip', so to say.

I always thought that the distractions from the body and all
the things that the five senses restrain from perception were the
main road of distraction... but ego and vanity as a belief never
occurred to me, as I referrenced this things as this protective
layer of reality to the perceiver, observer.

Thanks!!



[]´s
RP

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
Arrogance and strong conviction are both good because they help you get to the end of incorrect premises faster.

'Hi',

some questions and a fair amount of statements.

Would you tell us about the people on your selfish , probably, self destructive path to 'wisdom'? Do they matter much ? What would , or did, you do when you finally discover your arrogance and all the things you have done to others based on your prior 'convictions'? Ask forgiveness and hope you can convince them not to hold a grudge?

The type of person who thinks arrogance and hubris and zeal is bad a proiri, is a weak wormy person who feels a generalized resentment against the more able which he couches in terms of a morally condescending "more in sorrow than in anger" philosophical poormouthing program.

Or he is he is worried that he might do a great deal of harm to others while trying to uncover objective truths about the world? Doesn't our dictionarty defintions make it clear that both arrogance and hubris are neccesarily problematic things and that the vast majority of those who indulges in it are the very people destroying their various societies?

To sink to the level of the satanic proverbs, here's two:

THE ROAD OF EXCESS LEADS TO THE PALACE OF WISDOM
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT TOO MUCH IS, UNTIL YOU DO TOO MUCH

And by that time it's too late to correct your mistakes and to undo the harm you have done others. Provided, as would normally not be the case, you care about others that is.....

But the main reason why people should be arrogant is because it's fun...if they like fun, that is.

Never have met a arrogant/egotistical self indulgent person that were not desperately unhappy with the state of the world. Ironically true contentness and a sense of meaning in life seems to be found almost exclusively in starting and raising a family and interacting in the commonly agreed upon best interest of your local community. There might be alternative paths but they are narrow and very, very lonely.

Stellar

[edit on 20-5-2009 by StellarX]

Hi traveler,

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
It's flawed because Socrates obviously thought he knew enough to know that. Rather self-defeating to me.

As i have always understood that quote ( well since i first read it) he simply meant that the resolution of current questions will lead to more questions; greater knowledge will slowly expose your ever greater ignorance of what is not yet known to you.

To my perspective, one must explore as many avenues as are found available. And what use is it to follow any path without the conviction that it is the right path at the time?

In my perspective some avenues are obviously self destructive ( one could study history/biographies to expose some of them) and best avoided. All learning avenues isn't constructive in as much as some of them can scar you or kill you.

To know nothing isn't even to know oneself.

I have a real issue with the idea that the world/universe can't be objectively understood and that one can not set objective aims in terms of making yourself the type of person that can either serve as a model others would deep worthy of emulating or at least someone who would be ready to help others when they need it.

No, I think the truly wise are those who readily admit they don't know everything, and do so emphatically, with the utmost conviction.

But that's probably going too far as it's kind of like admitting other well known 'facts' about the human experience. I think anyone who claims to know everything will mostly get laughed out of whatever office he got elected too ( Few preachers of even fewer faiths even claim this; that should say something) so perhaps we can set a more objective standard?

Isn't the danger really that the less people admit to 'knowing' the more certain they seem to be of those few dearly held 'convictions'; isn't that what makes fundamentalism so very dangerous in the first place? In my experience greater 'true' knowledge necessarily breeds insecurity as the contradictions and conflicts are exposed along the way of discovery that negates the type of concerted minority/singular action we normally associate with the market/social/religious fundamentalist of our world?

So if my experience is any measurement the more i have read/learnt the more uncertainty is exposed and the more i am forced to evaluate that seemingly insignificant possibility that i could get a fact wrong and cause a cascading/domino effect on a good proportion of the rest. Obviously this type of fear is not much of a mobilizing emotional state so i can but say that i will exchange it can find something that has the same correcting mechanisms but yields something more stable....

In closing I must commend the OP as i think he picked and expounded upon a very interesting subject matter.

Stellar

Any luck finding the source of that Socrates 'quotation', OP?

Been three days now. All Plato's works are on the internet, you know.

Thank You to the OP.

I want to contribute more to this conversation than just a Thank You, but I can't think of anything to contribute that the OP already hasn't described.

About the only thing I can add is experiental.

Being raised in a Fundamentalist Christian environment, I believe I have some insight on the subject of conviction and it's effects. IMO, the OP has nailed it and created a very functional world view (or framework or whatever you want to call it) on this topic.

I'll be fitting this one into my collection of world views.