what's the most powerful Fighter in the world F-22 or the Su 27(35m)

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by devilwasp
whats vffing?
some kinda fancy manovour

VIFFing = Vectoring In Forward Flight

Something the Brits developed years ago that you can only do with a harrier.

Gee coolhand, why did you not mention the JSF could not do that? Is it because the JSF can?

Thought so.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Originally posted by Humpy
Don't forget the Harrier.

It may be slow, but it is the most manouverable fighter currently in use.

Apparently you are about 15 years behind current times, the Harrier is not the most manueverable aircraft, the YF-22, YF-23, and the F-35 JSF are.

And agreed the YF-23 is a great aircraft, but this thread is not on the YF-23 now is it? There are way too many posts on both the Blackwidow and the Raptor, can we please keep these posts in within those threads?

Shattered OUT...

We'll, the raptor and 'widow are among the most manueverable - but some Russian aircraft can even beat them... The 35 is not in the same class as far as i know (I have been known to be wrong on occasion though).

I would also like to point out how manueverability is becoming less and less important as BVR combat becomes more and more the norm'. Obviously, you must have a manueverable fighter aircraft, but the aircraft it's self is becoming more of a missle platform then it is a dogfighter. Now adays, you could argue that the weapons and avionics are more important then the aircraft its self.

As for keeping this thread on topic, I believe it is...When ever you compare the new fighter to some other aircraft, it's other incarnation will and SHOULD come up - perhaps not be the main point, but still - IMHO - it is still aplicable.

Gee coolhand, why did you not mention the JSF could not do that? Is it because the JSF can?

Thought so.

Shattered OUT...

They have not tested it yet, so they don't know if it can. I think that there will be problems with back gassing the engine when they rotate the nozzle.

And how can VFFing assist in a combat cituation?

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
And how can VFFing assist in a combat cituation?

Shattered OUT...

You can use it to tighten up your turn, while slowing your forward speed. That lets your bogey get in front of you and you can pop off a few rounds at him. If you are really quick on it you can get a sidewinder off on him.

Ask the Argentinians how well it worked, they were on the wrong side of it.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by devilwasp
whats vffing?
some kinda fancy manovour

VIFFing = Vectoring In Forward Flight

Something the Brits developed years ago that you can only do with a harrier.

Gee coolhand, why did you not mention the JSF could not do that? Is it because the JSF can?

Thought so.

Shattered OUT...

I smell a flame war

anyways, if VIFFing is describing it's VTOL abillity this has nothing to do with it's agility - it simply allows the aircraft to rise vertically. Please clarify on how it helps manueverability please

Also, I have heard that the Harrior was greatly underpowered in VTOL mode.

And yes, the JSF uses a newer, better system - so I believe us americans are back ahead of the britts in that department

Also, there is this thing on the raptor called thrust vectoring - it makes it VERY manueverable

i think the jsf will do fine and will live up to the harriers role
lets keep this on topic i agree

any way whats the point in comparing them there never going to fight each other anyway
and in the right hands any fighter can beat a beter 1
(within certain limits aka a spitfire cannot beat an f22)

Originally posted by COOL HAND
Gee coolhand, why did you not mention the JSF could not do that? Is it because the JSF can?

Thought so.

Shattered OUT...

They have not tested it yet, so they don't know if it can. I think that there will be problems with back gassing the engine when they rotate the nozzle.



Not true - it has been tested and works quite well - that according to Intelgurl - who if you didn't know, would know

I smell a flame war

Not from this end

anyways, if VIFFing is describing it's VTOL abillity this has nothing to do with it's agility - it simply allows the aircraft to rise vertically. Please clarify on how it helps manueverability please

Read above post.

Also, I have heard that the Harrior was greatly underpowered in VTOL mode.

The original was, but the latest version has overcome that problem.

And yes, the JSF uses a newer, better system - so I believe us americans are back ahead of the britts in that department

We always have been ahead of them.

Not true - it has been tested and works quite well - that according to Intelgurl - who if you didn't know, would know

To my knowledge I have not heard of them testing it in an a2a fight. That is where it matters. They have tested its ability to transition from vertical to horizontal flight, which bodes well for its ability to VIFF.

Originally posted by devilwasp
i think the jsf will do fine and will live up to the harriers role
lets keep this on topic i agree

any way whats the point in comparing them there never going to fight each other anyway
and in the right hands any fighter can beat a beter 1
(within certain limits aka a spitfire cannot beat an f22)

Remember what Yeager said:

"It's the man, not the machine"

so where does this VIFFing work?

Is it from the main engine, or does it come from the VTOL system - i am confused

Originally posted by American Mad Man
so where does this VIFFing work?

Is it from the main engine, or does it come from the VTOL system - i am confused

Well, the harrier has only a single engine so that answers the where part of your question.

The how takes a little bit of explaining.

Let me see if I can find a picture of it. If not I will try to dig up the paper I did on it a while ago.

the americans where not always ahead of the british in aircraft
as i recall u actually where complete and utter [bad words] when it came to aquiring the harrier u said "if u let us look at ur aircraft we'll let u look at ours"
and so we let u look but when we go to look at ur aircraft no no no we cant let u look at it
its against national security
also being able to hover and rise vertically can be really handy in a dogfight
if u just stop in mid air then the enemy will fly right past u so u can fire at them now
also if u have full 3d agility then u have more agility than a plane

Originally posted by devilwasp
the americans where not always ahead of the british in aircraft
as i recall u actually where complete and utter [bad words] when it came to aquiring the harrier u said "if u let us look at ur aircraft we'll let u look at ours"
and so we let u look but when we go to look at ur aircraft no no no we cant let u look at it
its against national security
also being able to hover and rise vertically can be really handy in a dogfight
if u just stop in mid air then the enemy will fly right past u so u can fire at them now
also if u have full 3d agility then u have more agility than a plane

Well, I'll put it this way - if you want to put Brittish fighters up against US fighters, i'll take that bet any day of the week
They may have had a few parts that were better, but over all???? I seem to remember this plane built back in the 60's - it was black, it flew Mach 3+

Also VTOL can't be used in a dogfight - the plane doesn't just stop in mid air and shoot straight up or down. It doesn't work that way.

It's all a moot point. The limfac for any of these is the driver. In 30 years, manned air combat will be obsolete. UCAV's will rule the day.

Also VTOL can't be used in a dogfight - the plane doesn't just stop in mid air and shoot straight up or down. It doesn't work that way.

Yes it can, you can use it to slow yourself down and still point at the target. Meanwhile all he can do is shoot past you and present his backside.

VTOL presents a large problem, it does not stop on a dime.

You can be moving at mach 2 and to perform the VIFFing, you need to wait for a certain amount of time to elapse before the aircraft can actually hover.

It is impossible for the harrier to just stop right away and be moving instantly up and down, it needs to time and mass amount of kinetic energy to break the momentum of the aircraft.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
VTOL presents a large problem, it does not stop on a dime.

You can be moving at mach 2 and to perform the VIFFing, you need to wait for a certain amount of time to elapse before the aircraft can actually hover.

It is impossible for the harrier to just stop right away and be moving instantly up and down, it needs to time and mass amount of kinetic energy to break the momentum of the aircraft.

Shattered OUT...

Since the harrier is subsonic, the manuever works for it.

mad man its not the aircraft its the man that flies it
our aircraft may be crap but our engineering is the best

[Edited on 05/03/2004 by devilwasp]