Why is evolution the counter to Jesus?

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by Anonymous ATS

 

Nice post Anon...

I welcome you to register on ATS...

Well thought through posts are a good thing!

Thanks....I decided to take you up on your offer....looks like after finding this site, I may be around a while.

The moral of my earlier post....

I believe it takes as much faith to not believe in God as it does to believe.
Is the person asking for proof of God any better than those asking to prove evolution?

I will agree it takes a lot of ignorance on the Christian's part to simply go on the offensive when asked about his or her faith. I often find the bulk of this ignorance exists in Christians who were brought up to believe and have not spent the time really needed to establish a good foundation.

On the other hand, this also holds true for most Atheists. They too can not tell you why they don't believe in God, and more often personally attack people who believe, claiming we are stupid or such for believing. I had this arguement with a really good friend of mine. Rather than having an educated response why I shouldn't believe, it was more of how could I be so stupid as to believe in a God.

Only my 1/2 cents worth.....Thanks

reply to post by DoYouSeeIt


I challenge you to ask any atheist why they don't believe.... and tell me how many responses you get where they "don't know".

Its VERY rare at this stage in our history to find a kid raised atheist... most atheists are former believers who learned to think for themselves...

Your friends reaction is because he has been "deprogrammed". Its alot like arguing with a cult member when you deal with believers...

They never really realize how obscene their beliefs are until they are free of the brainwashing tactics...

reply to post by nj2day


And yet here I am, raised secular, total atheist until I was around 20, when I opened my eyes and became spiritual.

What your actually describing is people bucking the brain washing system of the major religious factions. Where they often end up denouncing their belief in god because 1) The Scriptures are full of things they dont like and are contradictory in nature, 2) Other people who have moved away from religion like to treat people who are into religion as whack jobs worshiping an imaginary being, and this spreads.

Neither side has tolerance of the other, which is a shame, Athiests should not go around attempting to ridicule other peoples belief structures, and Religious people should not attempt to force their view onto people outside of their religious circle, the fact that we have free will clearly means the following of any particular faith is not mandatory despite what they (leaders of said faiths) may want you to believe.

Fellow people,


It is our duty to question the larger... once you start doing that you will in turn question yourself to a god-like realm.



Be open to love.
Love is not a "doing",



Love is an "allowing".

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
reply to post by nj2day

 

Neither side has tolerance of the other, which is a shame, Athiests should not go around attempting to ridicule other peoples belief structures, and Religious people should not attempt to force their view onto people outside of their religious circle, the fact that we have free will clearly means the following of any particular faith is not mandatory despite what they (leaders of said faiths) may want you to believe.

You are forgetting something:

I am required to respect your right to believe...

nowhere does it say I have to respect your beliefs.

There's a subtle difference. Why is my free speech abridged because I think believing in a fairy tale is insane?

I have every right to voice this opinion...

Believers have been able to keep atheists silent for almost 1500 years... now that we are finally getting the protection of the courts to freedom from religion... it becomes an issue?

I promise you, if you left your religion at home, and in the church... you would hear significantly less from atheists...

I am not a member of any faith but thanks for the assumption that I should leave my beliefs in church.

Tell me then why I shouldn't believe in an ultimate divine source, you obviously know why I'd like to know your point of view, calling it a fairy tale is just as useful as me telling you that god exists because the bible says so, which I wouldn't dream of doing.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by DoYouSeeIt

 

I challenge you to ask any atheist why they don't believe.... and tell me how many responses you get where they "don't know".

Its VERY rare at this stage in our history to find a kid raised atheist... most atheists are former believers who learned to think for themselves...

Your friends reaction is because he has been "deprogrammed". Its alot like arguing with a cult member when you deal with believers...

They never really realize how obscene their beliefs are until they are free of the brainwashing tactics...

Fair enough....Why do you not believe?
It is rare to find anyone raised atheist, but very common for someone to be raised in a secular family who has the religion forced down his throat which mind you is not an arguement for not believing....You say "deprogrammed"....so what of the person who was not raised in the cult christian atmosphere, who was never programmed one way or the other.....but was left to find his faith on his own? I was not raised in church, and have parents who to this day do not attend, but by my own accord established a very ferverant faith....
In short, I sympathize with anyone that has been "programmed" to be any particular way or the other....there is as much evidence for God, as there is for evolution...and as much as someone can prove God or evolution, there are still very many unanswered questions in regards to both beliefs; and that is what BOTH are, beliefs....Before conforming to any faith, religious or scientific, a person should spend time finding his own answers...Even if I was not a Christian, I feel my soul and how things end for me, are worth the effort.....

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
I am not a member of any faith but thanks for the assumption that I should leave my beliefs in church.

Tell me then why I shouldn't believe in an ultimate divine source, you obviously know why I'd like to know your point of view, calling it a fairy tale is just as useful as me telling you that god exists because the bible says so, which I wouldn't dream of doing.

Oh I didn't say you shouldn't believe... Its obviously working for you...

Your faith doesn't belong in government buildings, schools, legislation, public property, or any of the like...

Keep your morality to yourself and quit trying to force it on me... either subtly or overtly.

I call it a fairy tale because there is no more reason to believe in a god than there is to believe in unicorns or dragons...

reply to post by nj2day


I wasn't trying to force my beliefs on you or infect your public institutions with such beliefs, again you are equating belief in god to religious manipulation they are separate things.

I asked you a civil question and in response you attempt to ridicule me, and yet you still haven't answered the question, I would suggest your atheism is as much a form of faith as my own.

So one more time, why is their no god ?

Originally posted by DoYouSeeIt
Fair enough....Why do you not believe?

I don't believe for the same reasons you are atheistic about Thor, Zeus, Jupiter, Quetzelquatel, Amen-Ra, Osiris, Shiva, and the likes...

When your religion has just as much evidence as unicorns, why should you believe in god, but not fire-breathing dragons?

so what of the person who was not raised in the cult christian atmosphere, who was never programmed one way or the other.....

The human brain is evolutionarily programmed to attempt to resolve whats going on in their surroundings... This genetic predisposition makes believing in god very easy... couple that with the propaganda machine... and you get a very easy convert.

You weren't programmed, but obviously found things you couldn't understand, and felt the need to quantify these mysteries...

there is as much evidence for God, as there is for evolution

Erm no... this is the result of being "programmed" by religion after you found faith... this statement is utterly false.

...and as much as someone can prove God or evolution, there are still very many unanswered questions in regards to both beliefs; and that is what BOTH are, beliefs....Before conforming to any faith, religious or scientific, a person should spend time finding his own answers...Even if I was not a Christian, I feel my soul and how things end for me, are worth the effort.....

No, evolution is not a faith... evolution is a theory.. supported by multitudes of verifiable hypotheses...

How do you feel about the evidence that Atoms exist? Atomic theory is still just a theory you know...

Gravity? well, you get the gist.





[edit on 16-12-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
So one more time, why is their no god ?

Whoa! you moved the goalposts!

You originally asked why you shouldn't believe in god... here's the quote:

Tell me then why I shouldn't believe in an ultimate divine source

Answering this question is off topic... but if you'd like an answer, feel free to make a thread... and let me know what the name is...

I'll happily contribute.

So much of this is based on opinion, but again there are as much facts for one side or the other. This nation was founded mostly in part on Christian beliefs. So its obvious that so much of that history has been on display as part of our American tradition.

With that being said, I will never agree with the Bible being taught in any public school, but why would I accept the teaching of Evolution, when at its core, is only a theory? And is a theory more over just someones belief that one day evidence will prove it to be true? Either way, why would we want our youth being taught that ignorance is acceptable? I feel time should be spent either explaining both positions, allowing a person to foster his own personal opinion, or omitting both God and evolution from the public school system. Either method will allow our youth to find answers through his own method of interpretation.

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
So one more time, why is their no god ?

Whoa! you moved the goalposts!

You originally asked why you shouldn't believe in god... here's the quote:

Tell me then why I shouldn't believe in an ultimate divine source

Answering this question is off topic... but if you'd like an answer, feel free to make a thread... and let me know what the name is...


I'll happily contribute.

I did make said thread....."Christianity vs. Atheism"


[edit on 16-12-2008 by DoYouSeeIt]

Alright I will make said topic i could use the points to get access to RATS anyway and your right I shouldn't derail this thread.

With all respect Christianity Vs Atheism is not what im trying to get at.

The thread is called To Believe Or Not To Believe

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 16-12-2008 by gYvMessanger]

[edit on 16-12-2008 by gYvMessanger]

there is as much evidence for God, as there is for evolution

Erm no... this is the result of being "programmed" by religion after you found faith... this statement is utterly false.


No, evolution is not a faith... evolution is a theory.. supported by multitudes of verifiable hypotheses...

How do you feel about the evidence that Atoms exist? Atomic theory is still just a theory you know...

Gravity? well, you get the gist.





[edit on 16-12-2008 by nj2day]

Again, my response stems from my own experience. Humanity is missing the all important proof to evolution, ie. the missing link. I agree that evolution is a theory, but one that requires some faith if you believe it to be factual. Although, I will agree some evidence does exist to support evolution, not any one thing can prove it.
The same holds true for "God/Supreme Being/Higher power". There is evidence to support there being a God, but not any one thing that can beyond a doubt prove it.
As for being programmed by religion, not true. I actually studied both sides heavily while I was an Agnostic several years back. While both arguements were compelling, and I admit to believing in some form of evolution (just not Darwin), I personally concluded the debate for God was way to substantial in our human condition to simply ignore it.

Originally posted by OldThinker
euphemism?

Yes. What is the problem?

?????????

Help OT out here?

With what exactly?

What is your point?

I was not making a point, I was asking you a direct question.

I need more than a 'freakin' blurb...write man, write!

Why do I need to use more words? My sentence is whole and intact, grammatically correct and in English. I am lost as to what your problem with it is. Is the word too much for you and you would rather I spell it out with lots of little words for you? Not poking fun, that is what I am getting.

I thought my response was thoroughly stated...I don't 'pick and choose '...do u think I do...or have evidence for such?

I was asking. Overreact much? You are really all worked up because I asked if BB meant pick and choose?

You proposed that the OT be read one way and the NT be read another way, did you not? So I am asking what a BB is. Is that someone who decides how to read the bible depending on what part they are reading and what message they hope to find in it?

This is a question, not a point. If it upsets you, I really have no idea why.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
This thread has gotten derailed a little bit into personal conversations it seems.

Yeah, I really did not mind until it became two pages of making a date and then one of them gets upset because I interrupted to ask a question. Maybe some people need to go to that secret forum now and stroke each other for two pages if they are going to get mad when I question one of them in my own thread about the actual topic at hand. And I usually like OT's posts too.

Originally posted by nj2day
I promise you, if you left your religion at home, and in the church... you would hear significantly less from atheists...

And yet, you are in a religious forum arguing with religious people.

Problems can't be solved on the same level of thinking that created them.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo

Originally posted by OldThinker
euphemism?

....
I was asking. Overreact much? You are really all worked up because I asked if BB meant pick and choose?

You proposed that the OT be read one way and the NT be read another way, did you not? So I am asking what a BB is. Is that someone who decides how to read the bible depending on what part they are reading and what message they hope to find in it?

This is a question, not a point. If it upsets you, I really have no idea why.

TIME OUT....

I'm in no way upset......the cutting and pasting chop chop responses kinda bugs me...I guess I prefer more of a conversational dialog...of well, no biggy though...

Hey where did I say read the OT and NT differently...?

Also a balanced believer, to me atleast has nothing to do with picking and choosing...have you heard of hermaneutics? A text without context is a pretext...so in a sense each book of the Bible should be read independently....does that mean differently? Dunno?

I guess I'm struggling with what particularly you are asking of me, would you be open to try again?

Thanks

OT