Originally posted by CharlesMartel

Well, either:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

this is gonna be good....

or God is not our Creator and our rights come from God or they exist at the whim of politicians.

What? I only get those two choices? Wow, well, I cannot wait to see how this goes over but.....all men are not created equal. That is a nice philosophical idea to keep people fair in their treatment of others but it is a platitude, not a literal reality. I have a friend that needs me to get things from high shelves because she is much shorter. My black friend can stay out in the sun much longer than my irish/german/english butt can. My mother lost her kidney due to a genetic defect and without medical advancements would have been dead 20 years ago. Were you born that way too?

Evolution diminishes our Rights, because it means they do not come from God. What God gives, only God can take away. What the politicians give, they can take away, and will when they feel they need to.

Sorry but evolution does not diminish our rights any more than religion does. You speak of the Christian god, are you one of his special chosen people? Which rights did he give us all that we all need, or want, or like? How do you know that I would not be more inclined to enjoy the rights that may be granted by Elliot Spitzer instead of your god? Why do you get to decide who grants me my rights if we are all equal? Should I not then have the same right to decide for myself where my rights come down from?

I will say it again just to be clear. All men are not created equal. Blind people cannot describe a painting to someone nearly as well as a sighted person could. Deaf people do not get to enjoy the new Nevermore live album. I can. Does that make me better? Nooooooooooooooooooo. Different? Yessssssssssss.

[edit on 15-12-2008 by angel of lightangelo]

Originally posted by Yoda411
Well, evolution disproves creationism. It does not disprove the existence of Jesus Christ or a God. Evolution disproves the theory of creationism (God created us as we are today). If this is off topic I think everyone else in this thread is having trouble following your ill logic.

I guess the problem is that I explained it in the OP and again to you. I should have known by then that when I see that avatar of the fine intelligent looking young man with the nice teeth and hair, that some crazy stupid is coming.

Evolution disproves creationism, ok. And?
What was my point? Oh, when I asked people about proof of God. God. Hear me? God. I said God. The word I am using here is capital G GOD. Got it yet?

OK so here I am looking for some scientific way to prove God and I keep getting these "Christians" coming in to tell me that I need to prove evolution.

What???? Why do I need to prove evolution. We were not talking about the bible, creationism, Christian world history, just God. That is it. Evolution was not only off topic but asking me to prove it instead of offering something up of their god? Well that seemed a little off.

I asked about God and I got -"you prove evolution!!!!"

Um, no. Not how it works. I was not talking about evolution, just God.

Are you getting this yet? I am sick of explaining myself more than once to you. Rap music must do something to reading skills.

I said that if they wanted to debate how me proving evolution is the only response they have to my question about God, then they needed a thread where that would not be off topic in which to discuss.

Here it is. They are welcome to come here and explain to me why I need to prove evolution when I want them to prove God or Jesus. You can have both God and Jesus without creationism. You and the people I am talking about put them together so inextricably.

Again, if you are not one of them, I was not addressing you in the OP. If just wandered in and wanted to spout off ignorant rants because you misunderstood the point, please keep your avatar the same so I can just skim past that crap from now on.

I've been laughing my way through this thread, especially at some of the comments from some of our creationist posters.

However, it's the sixth page and the original question still has not been answered due to misinterpretations....


I wanted to attempt to answer it as plainly as possible for the ease of understanding of many here.

Why is evolution the counter to Jesus?

Well it's because people who cannot prove the existence of God need to take emotional comfort in 'knowing' (hoping) that evolution is false and therefore eases the pain of being wrong and delusional. It's a defense mechanism.

Of course, the problem arises when evidence comes into play and the creationists' anti-evolution arguments fall flat on their faces.

The problem with that theory...that the believers in God need evolution to fall flat...is wrong.

I believe in a Higher Power/Energy...what ever suits you....and I believe evolution can be a part in the works of that power, god, whatever...

You can not place all believers in a category of 'against evolution'...it doesn't work.

And again...why is it that everyone looks over this 'bara' word....it does not mean created. I would love to hear specifically from those who think God works through creating out of nothing, personally.

Ok, so someone doesn't believe in God or Jesus and wants proof. They say creationism cant be true because evolution is proven. But then you have this group over in the corner getting ignored that says they believe there is a God and they believe he works through evolution, processes, science.

This whole thread proves absolutely nothings except we are all looking for ways to stereotype a group.

But some good points were made throughout it, I think....

Peace to all,
LV

There are believers that can think out of the box, but non believers will still find ways to assume we do this just for comfort, something we need in life....it will always be that way.

I consider myself Christian and I believe Jesus was sent from God, however, I also believe in evolution and science. The bible is written by people (not god), for people with very limited general knowledge and science to those people didnt exist. Thats why it is so "simple", it is for the simple minded, but dont get me wrong, it is not stupid. There is huge amount of knowledge and evidence of deep understanding of the soul in the bible, its just that alot of what is written, especially in the old testament should not be taken literally.

I have no idea why there is still people in todays world that actually think the bible is the only truth. It makes me sad to know we have so many naives.

I have to add to the discussion about the book of Genesis where it says that God created everything in 7 days. Let us pause there for a moment, one earth day is the revolution of the earth around it self. Isnt God above the earth? What if one God day was the revolution of the Galaxy around it self? Then it would have taken God, 7 x 250,000,000 YEARS to create us. Thats 1,75 BILLION human years.

Who says god uses earth days?

@ LeoVirgo

I understand the point that as a believer you do not want to be stereotyped into the group which I created in my last post.

I want to clarify that I am only speaking in reference to the group of individuals mentioned by our OP who created this thread as a response to the hijacking of the previous one where creationists used the defensive statement 'Prove evolution' as a response to the question 'prove God exists'.


As if by disproving evolution would somehow make God exist.


This is, of course, absurd. I wanted to explain that the only reasons someone would use this argument is if they felt they needed emotional security by holding onto irrational thought.

Mostly this is done subconsciously and is not realised.

Again, I just wanted to answer the question.

To pick up on the word 'bara'; in this context - it's off topic sorry. But interesting none-the-less, maybe consider gathering more info and references and post a new thread. I know that I would be interested to read it


edit to direct comment to poster.

[edit on 15-12-2008 by Unsane]

Upon a simple cursory examination, I see no reason why the concept of Jesus and Evolution should be diametrically opposed. I don't believe Jesus really had anything to say on the subject of Evolution or Creation. Indeed, I don't recall Jesus making very many definitive statements about the nature of the universe at all - but rather seemed to focus more on the philosophy of how man should act in regards to their fellow man and in regards to god.

Also, insofar as God, since I didn't get to participate in the last thread - I guess I should offer up my proof of one. Er... if I had any that is. Unfortunately, God apparently, and by very definition, exists beyond the perceptible universe and evidence we can decipher can only exist within the perceptible universe. So asking for evidence is every bit as silly as stating so matter of factually that god does exist despite a complete lack of evidence. Though I do believe in a creator god/gods, it is nothing more than a belief I hold - and I fully recognize the fact that I may be completely wrong. Outside of the simple precept of belief, I try to hold no preconceived notions about that god or gods - because if there isn't even enough evidence to fully substantiate the claim that god even exists, how can we claim to know anything about such a being's nature, desires, powers, modus operandi, etc.

The genius of God is this: In order to know God (or in your words prove His existence) He must reveal Himself to you. And the way He reveals Himself to people is through His Son, His creation and His Word the Bible. For us to "prove" God's existence we must come to him through faith in Jesus Christ. Because the truth is, everyone of us has been supernaturally blinded and must be born again spiritually in order to "prove" God exists. Proving God exists falls into the same catagory as defining God. You cannot define Someone who is infinite in every respect. So to answer your thread, seriously consider the evidence found in the universe and your own body. The fact that you are reading this with eyes that focus and see three dimensionally in color is nothing short of a miracle. Last of all, you will never present enough evidence to convince someone who chooses not to believe. God really is a genious.

Wanted to add some more thoughts for us to consider. I have to believe the strongest evidence for point in time creation rather than eons required to make evolution work is the fact that species that cannot reproduce die out in one generation. There had to be a point in time when the sexes were created male and female so that they could reproduce and contine to exist. Evolution only works when you inject the time factor. Scientific proof?

Honestly, I can't see how evolution negates GOD, it's a natural process that can be viewed as just another small piece of his grand creation. It should be accepted by now as such, just as we accept the Earth revolves around the Sun. People who discount evolution, do so because they choose not to understand it. We accept mutation as a part of biology and understand it's due to cosmic particles slamming into our DNA. Every so often one of these mutations creates an advantage for a species and within few thousand years the part of the species without this adaptation have been bred out entirely. Which part of this process offends people's beliefs?