All I can say is bravo. Education embracing the idea of teaching verifiable facts in place of milennia old mythology. That is awesome.

than more power to them... although I consider forcing a religion on a child before they have the cognative capacity to choose responsibly is a form of child abuse.

Good. Because that's not how it's done, nor was it ever suggested that.

Values are the responsibility of the parents... NOT THE SCHOOLS...

Well that's the way it should be. But I'm afraid that's not how the world works.

Originally posted by C0bzz

than more power to them... although I consider forcing a religion on a child before they have the cognative capacity to choose responsibly is a form of child abuse.

Good. Because that's not how it's done, nor was it ever suggested that.

That wasn't in reference to the schools... that was in reference to forcing religion on kids from a young age....

Well that's the way it should be. But I'm afraid that's not how the world works.

So the state should be responsible for instilling values?

How does this not read as state sponsored brainwashing then?

Religion has played a huge role in history (Dark Ages anyone?) and can be approached from that angle. I trust no one is arguing forcing a belief system on anyone.

Personally, I believe in a Creator. I do not believe in man-made religions -- none of them.

There is a lot of knowledge and wisdom to be gained without any form of coercion.

Why is it so difficult?

Originally posted by argilla11
Religion has played a huge role in history (Dark Ages anyone?) and can be approached from that angle. I trust no one is arguing forcing a belief system on anyone.

Personally, I believe in a Creator. I do not believe in man-made religions -- none of them.

There is a lot of knowledge and wisdom to be gained without any form of coercion.

Why is it so difficult?

I also believe a creator of mankind exists. However, there is ongoing debate of who created humans and also the universe.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yep, I find it hilarious how many Atheists deny the existence of God, yet are convinced of the existence of self.

Since they are not, as you seem to think, inexorably linked and in fact have absolutely no relevance to each other at all, I fail to see why you sit there giggling to yourself over this issue.

There is no onus on atheists to prove God does not exist, the burden of proof is on those who believe the chocolate teapot really is orbiting Mercury.

Wow.... how wonderfully put.

The best way is to ask one's self: If there is only one God, how come it took him 158,000 out of 160,000 years of human existence to tell everyone about that fact?

For 158,000 years (roughly), he has quite happily allowed all people on planet Earth to go to "Hell" because he simply didn't feel like telling them about his wonderful religion. It doesn't matter who they are or what they do, they are just arbitrarily consigned to the flames, through no fault of their own.

The problem with God is that the concept of an entity such as this doesn't really stand up to logic.

Originally posted by HunkaHunkaWhat I find a problem with, is humans thinking they have a clue what the will of a potential supreme being might be. Or better yet, the people who assume that God is a personal entity in an objective way.

The whole mystery of God is that, if there is such a form, we have no idea what God would be, or what the Will of such an entity would be.

God is an ancient metaphor for the universe itself. Don't get me wrong, it's a big concept for the ancient Jews to have got their heads around, so well done them, but there is absolutely no need for worship of any kind.

Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphise absolutely everything, including the universe.

Remember, as Aristotle said, men make gods in their own image, and the ancient Jews were no exception.

[edit on 14-12-2008 by The Last Man on Earth]

Originally posted by argilla11
Religion has played a huge role in history (Dark Ages anyone?) and can be approached from that angle. I trust no one is arguing forcing a belief system on anyone.

Personally, I believe in a Creator. I do not believe in man-made religions -- none of them.

There is a lot of knowledge and wisdom to be gained without any form of coercion.

Why is it so difficult?

That's actually quite wise of you.

I came to a realization a ways back, that the only people who could have written the current standing religions had to be people who didn't actually believe in them themselves.

You can see where each one came from. How the power holders at the time amalgamated different religions together in order to unify the people under one controlling mechanism.

I'm quite willing to bet that the authors of Christianity and many other religions were Atheists themselves. Recognizing that they simply don't have the means to keep an eye on everyone, so they enforce through the fear of an imaginary being.

The reason there are so many blatant discrepancies in the bible is because the bible isn't the word of god. It's the word of man.
Let's face it, back then, we didn't know about DNA, Evolution, we didn't know that the earth isn't the center of the universe, we didn't know ANYTHING... and it shows in the bible. Why? Because WE wrote it.

(The only form of science that was prevalent back then was Astronomy, and it's extremely obvious, as the entire Christian religion revolves around Astrological events, and metaphors for the Sun etc. Look deep enough and you realize this "god" they are talking about is nothing more than the Sun itself... which again makes sense, as most religions of the time operated on the same principals... can't convert them unless there's something familiar to jump to.)


Once you realize that the bible was written by Atheists, Agnostics or Spiritualists, you have one final choice.

Do you continue to believe that you were the product of some higher beings power?

There are three options.
Yes = Spiritual.
Maybe/Don't care = Agnostic.
No = Atheist.


When I tell people their religion is a lie, I'm not expecting them to give up on their faith in god... I'm simply saying the organization you go to for answers about that god is a lie.


I don't want to convert people, I want to give them the ability to freely chose what they believe in, with their religious propaganda removed.
Set aside what you were told by the church... throw the bible back in the drawer... ignore what your family told you about god.
Knowing that your bible wasn't created by god.
Knowing that your religion is using that bible to make money off you.
Knowing that everything you've been told about god is all made up...

What do YOU believe?

If you continue to believe in a god, GREAT.
If you don't, welcome to the club.
If you can't decide, that's fine, nobody's pressuring you.

It's ALL about FREE THOUGHT.


Cause really... how can you possibly call it faith if you don't get to chose for yourself?

i don't think religious ed should be taught in schools, that's what churches are for but the shouldn't be taught that there is no god without any evidence

Originally posted by johnsky
Cause really... how can you possibly call it faith if you don't get to chose for yourself?

This is profound and begs the question, "What is Faith?".

I agree true Faith isn't something that has been spoon fed since birth but deep wisdom and understanding gained through intense self exploration. If your Creator can't be found within, where can s/he be found?

Originally posted by iced_blue
i don't think religious ed should be taught in schools, that's what churches are for but the shouldn't be taught that there is no god without any evidence

I'm afraid this is all wrong. I am the Oracle of Apollo at Swindon, England, and he's telling me that the gods are pissed that you are giving all the credit for everything to Zeus, and the other gods aren't getting a look-in.

He's calling upon all true believers to go on a holy war against you...I'm afraid we might even be looking at a civil war of the gods, here.

I'll keep you posted as to what else Apollo has to say as it comes in...

Originally posted by nj2day
LOL I'm afraid the burden of proof lies on you friend...

It is impossible to disprove the existence of Unicorns... maybe people shouldn't think they don't exist until they can prove it...

True that! I wonder, when shown, why most people don't prefer a deity who exudes love and acceptance versus a deity who is willing to throw them into a pit of damnation at the first whiff of wrongdoing or wrongthinking.

I find inscrutable the process modern religions found in their rise to power and dominance -- yet here we are.

I count this as a step forward, Atheism is part of one of the ELECTIVE (which is apparently a word people seem to keep missing here) religious courses.
The parents make the decisions about whether or not the kids attend the classes, and whether they go to the atheist, Christian, Buddhist, ect.

So really, there's a definite amount of choice given, and from the person who's actually had a class there, albeit somewhat earlier, it seems much different from what most you seem to be getting from it.
Apparently enough to get someone encouraged to learn about it, versus force feeding them.
Sounds a lot better than the religious education I've had, personally.

I don't see how this is any different than having an apologetics class for dogma, which there is no point for having unless there is a class against dogma. I just see it like this: if your going to expose an intellectual religious discussion for or against, in any school, do not let it be biased. Existence of God is a topic of who is more right, not who is right. So if it may be discussed or taught for that matter, I think there should be an equal counter measurement in the discussion.

People will believe anything that makes sense.

peace.

Originally posted by C0bzz

Values are the responsibility of the parents... NOT THE SCHOOLS...

Well that's the way it should be. But I'm afraid that's not how the world works.

[edit on 14/12/2008 by C0bzz]

So? What gives schools the right to instill any subjective belief system? If the child goes to a catholic/religious school, fair enough - the parents obviously made that choice. Fat lot of good it did me, I despised the entire time.

Tell me, how does RE give a child a better chance at securing a gainful future? It has nothing to do with practical education. It's a belief that has NO value outside of the group that endorses it.

There are plenty of good, honest and decent atheists and agnostics. Religion is a personal choice, and has no place in the mandatory education of children who are still unable to decide for themselves if it appeals to them.

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