Students to be taught there isn't a God, page 13
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 09:32 PM by cruzion
reply to post by papabryant



Dude, how did you get a BA and you still can't spell?


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 10:02 PM by Thurisaz
reply to post by WatchNLearn




well perhaps but I consider the effects of 'no faith' especially when I read just recently that the Chinese People are committing suicide every two minutes, Chinese committing suicide every two minutes China is a communist country, is communism creeping into an already over-policed Australia?

I wonder also if there are Constitutional issues with this? God is well entrenched and indoctrinated within the Constitution...

It could be a rather timely inititiate, especially with the rumours circulating about calling another referendum for a Republic.

Get rid of the Monarchy and God?










[edit on 18-12-2008 by Thurisaz]


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 10:05 PM by AshleyD
reply to post by cruzion



I disagree. It has nothing to do with racial desegregation. The increase in private religious schools coincided with the banning of prayer and Bible lessons in public school. Your confusion is understandable as this also took place in the 60's but here you go:

The court decided that government-directed prayer in public schools was an unconstitutional violation of the Establishment Clause. This was decided in a vote of 6-1, because before the decision could be announced, Justice Frankfurter suffered a cerebral stroke that forced him to retire, and Charles Whittaker resigned in March 1962.


Engel Vs. Vitale

And:

Abington Township School District v. Schempp (consolidated with Murray v. Curlett), 374 U.S. 203 (1963), was a United States Supreme Court case argued on February 27–28, 1963 and decided on June 17, 1963. In the case, the Court decided 8-1 in favor of the respondent, Edward Schempp, and declared school sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States to be unconstitutional. The case was part of a string of Supreme Court cases ruling on the place of religion in public schools, and was both condemned by some religious conservatives and celebrated by those who supported constitutional separation of church and state.


Arbington Vs. Schempp

Because the government began to prohibit religions in public schools, many private schools opened as a result in the 60's. It was not due to desegregation in the 60's.


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 10:30 PM by cruzion
reply to post by AshleyD



Indeed, that too, but I would guess, you being a good christian soldier and all that, it is probably something that wasn't mentioned at your house, or school. We did a day on it, along with some court cases which were connected to it, in history 1302. Seems to the people teaching it, i.e the history teachers, that it was a commonplace knowledge.


I am neither blind nor dishonest. When the civil rights movement in the US got underway Martin Luther King Jr. noted that the most segregated hour in the United States was Sunday morning when white and black went to their separate churches. The African Methodist Episcopal church was founded for blacks because blacks were not allowed in white churches. The largest Protestant denomination in the US is the Southern Baptists. They split from the other Baptists before the Civil War because they were in favour of slavery. It is a fact that Christian religious school were set up to avoid mixing their children with black children after the US Supreme Court desegregated the schools. Although Christians have supported civil rights in the United States some at the cost of their lives more Christians have supported racial bigotry. It is also a fact that fundamentalist Christianity has supported racism.


Seems other people think along the same lines as me, and very succinctly put.

Here's an article on Segregation in religious schools.

And another....

And another....

This one is juicy!


[edit on 18-12-2008 by cruzion]


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 10:43 PM by AshleyD
reply to post by cruzion



Quick question: Are you focusing on English schools or American? My cases dealt with American religious issues, laws, and education but all of your links refer to English controversies, with the exception of your non sourced first quoted paragraph. I can defend my position dealing with America but have to plead ignorance on recent English civil history. I don't know much about what went/goes on over there. Where is your top quoted text taken from? There were most certainly segregated churches back then and there are 'self-segregated' churches today although anyone can attend church wherever they want.


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 11:39 PM by cruzion
reply to post by AshleyD



See pages 24 and 25.
books.google.com... S3r8pIXw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=26&ct=result



Forty years ago, "Christian" schools sprang up in the South as segregation academies. Today, we threaten to create new segregation academies by funding schools that have declared new categories of outcasts.

www.post-gazette.com...

Still ongoing:


Religious private schools most segregated in U.S.


harvardscience.harvard.edu...

I can't find what I am specifically looking for, and I'm not about to go trawling through my text books.
The 2 most likely sources I can find online, both want money..
journals.cambridge.org...;jsessionid=05BDE427C65FA44E24E1C035BE4D70B8.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=7917
www.questia.com...
Hey, maybe it is a conspiracy by the board of education?
I thought it common knowledge that post Brown vs BOE decision illicited a rash of new religious and private schools to circumvent segregation.
They were even taking tables and chairs from public schools to furnish their new 'white' faith-based schooling.


reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 04:08 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by cruzion



Ah so thusly ALL religious schools the very principles for which they were founded just MUST be racist in nature right?
If you do not see the problems with that logic I am afraid I can't help you.




[edit on 19-12-2008 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 06:28 PM by Grandma
reply to post by WatchNLearn



WatchNLearn:

I agree with a lot of people here on your thread, that the belief in the existence of God or not, should be taught by the parents. This is of course based on their experience. It is a very personal choice and the school system should not educate the child on this matter.

I agree, that as the child grows older, he/she will not doubt come to their own understand of what their belief is in a divine Creator, called God.


Peace to you,
Grandma


reply posted on 19-12-2008 @ 09:00 PM by cruzion
Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to
post by cruzion



Ah so thusly ALL religious schools the very principles for which they were founded just MUST be racist in nature right?
If you do not see the problems with that logic I am afraid I can't help you.

Let me repeat part of my last post, as I don't think you quite read it correctly...


Religious schools have been around as long as there has been religion, I don't think anyone would dispute that. What we are focussing on is the growth of religious schools after the Brown vs Board of education decision to ban segregation, and the continuing use of segregation by religious schools.

Did I ever say ever, that ALL religious schools were founded to promote racism? Not not at all. You just made that up.
As for teaching children about God - sure, why not? If you are just telling them about the christian God, I would have a problem with that, but if it is Gods and Godesses of lots of different cultures, I have no problem with children learning history and social science - the more the merrier. It's good for children to see different aspect of the world.
It starts getting a bit iffy when there is an indoctrination agenda and bias going on in the background. I really wouldn't want my children to be as closetted, blinkered and ignorant of the world, as most middle-american religious are.

[edit on 19-12-2008 by cruzion]



reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 02:38 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by cruzion



I can agree and applaud you on that as far as your children go.
But the bias goes both ways. Which is largely what the whole debate and this thread is about. The Christians want to instill their bias upon the next generation. The atheists want to do the same for the same reason. Sure BOTH sides cover it in lots of deflective bull# but that is it pure and simple. Of course that doesn't include EVERY individual in the aforementioned groups but it does make up at least a majority. And of course one with such a bias would see the other side as being made mostly up of the bad types and their's having "pure" reasons. Which is of course textbook demonization. All the while both sides are pretty damn similar despite their ideological differences.
And on and on the silly cycle goes.
Seeing as to how we soo love our stupidity.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 03:41 AM by johnsky
reply to post by Styki



You see, I see it quite the opposite.

We can only teach our children that which we KNOW.
Faith isn't knowledge, faith is just that, blind faith. Hence, it can't be taught.
Hence, it can't be a subject in a scholarly facility.

The history of religion, sure, as that's history.


If I were to raise children, no, I wouldn't teach them my religious views. When they get curious, I'll provide them with documentation on ALL beliefs, ALL religions, and of course, all non faith options as well, they can chose from there.

Faith is supposed to be decided upon by you and you alone. Telling people "This is your god, and he is who you will pray to" is just wrong.

I won't be telling any children of my views, not until they've decided on their own.
Anything else, is persuasion.
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