Can God be defined scientifically?

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by nj2day

 

Your wrong that simple, I won't look at your site I have seen the world's smartest man Stephen Hawkins declare evolution to be a fairytale as well as many other scientists.

There is NO OBSERVABLE RE CREATABLE proof of evolution, and if anyone had some then they would be millionaires as there is millions offered fr Scientific Proof of evolution, to date unclaimed...

Your arguement for the proof of God and Creationism is that there isn't a smoking gun for the opposition?

Evolutionists at least have fossils in the midst of transitional periods. Where is your fossil of Jesus, or proof of God?

You cannot attack the other side for lacking evidence whilst your arguement contains no evidence at all.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
To date GOD, nor Aliens seeding the planet has been Statistically disproved as evolution has...

Perhaps I should also point out, that nothing can be statistically disproven... even if the chance of x happening is 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 There is still that 1 chance that it could happen...

Originally posted by Incarnated
I believe it is to try to make the self perclamed moron feel special. No abah englas.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo
reply to post by Incarnated

 

Ok, let's say I have issues. How about we agree I am a moron.

Ahhhhh, the wonderfully Christian tactic of "context loss." Nice. Call me names or whatever if that is the best you can do for a response. Anyone that can read understands that I was telling you for one minute pretend I am a moron for one post and try to explain your pointless dribble because it sounded like BS but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I severely regret that.


However I do want to thank you for leaving just as I am sure Jesus would. As soon as he was truly challenged, I believe he would hurl a personal insult and then right right?

reply to post by angel of lightangelo
Perhaps they really are one in the same? That was my point, and it seems you understood, at least partially.

"...if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him? The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God."
- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
....science and its laws and math that prove these laws seems a little to organized to be random. To me that's proof of something bigger behind the scenes. at least IMHO

See, I get that. But here is where I lose it.

Christians usually toss out evolution immediately over the "missing link" argument right?

Ok, now lets expand your theory.
Jesus(God) said he is forever, everywhere, all the time.
Jesus(God) said he is the light

In physics we learned the light is first of all, everywhere.
It travles at the speed of light so the light in front of me is also reaching the person on the other side of the room at the same time. So light is everywhere at the same time.
Since time is irrelelvant at the speed of light, then light is at all places, all the time, at once right?

OK, it is not amazing but it was a start. I thought that was interesting. I think you went where I hoped it would go but I have one question. Between all the science that is so ordered, so beutifully "designed" or whatever, and an actual higher being, where is the missing link and why don't Christians have the same reservations there?

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by angel of lightangelo

 

Try Archeology and GOD, Try history and GOD you may find they too point to GOD...

I am all ears. Any examples would be great. Anything other than telling me to go read some 400 page book that is too obscure to find at the local bookstore. Anything else is cool.

Originally posted by Incarnated
The "physical evidence" is all around us. It only takes eye truly willing to open to see clearly.

Just curious...if you were going into the hospital for major surgery, would you go with the doctor that had not scientific proof involved in his education but he was really willing to look around him instead or the guy that graduated med school? Then explain the difference, please.

Originally posted by prototism
reply to post by angel of lightangelo

 

Perhaps they really are one in the same? That was my point, and it seems you understood, at least partially.

I get ya, and I am not discounting it. I am saying that is not my intent for this thread. I mean hard cold evidence. I have been hearing so much about gays and evolution and they are attacked all the time for not having enough proof. Well, I am seriously willing to hear the other side's proof then. Maybe I should put it like this.

-I am willing to say there is no evolution and there are things far beyond our understand- (whether I believe all that or not) so you can all now convert me to a Christian quite easily. You killed the opposing argument, so there should be no problem stepping up and showing us the goods, the facts, the Christian "missing link" some kind of evidence that a miracle has ever truly taken place, that angels are a real thing, and so on. I want to see something. Even a math equation would be great as long as independant journal does not just throw numbers in all willy nilly.

reply to post by cancerian42


Really nice quote. Einstein is interesting in that he was interested, curious about God; even more as he grew older. I think it is safe to say he believed a great deal of science. So I have to think somewhere, there is something that someone is seeing.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by nj2day

 

Your wrong that simple, I won't look at your site I have seen the world's smartest man Stephen Hawkins declare evolution to be a fairytale as well as many other scientists.

Show me where Hawkins has stated this? And you may not use the Youtube video that has been revealed as a hoax.

Instead... how about we use a lecture he likes to give... that is posted on his own website: www.hawking.org.uk...

I find the lecture on his own personal website to be a little more credible than a youtube clip that has been shown to be a hoax.

There is NO OBSERVABLE RE CREATABLE proof of evolution, and if anyone had some then they would be millionaires as there is millions offered fr Scientific Proof of evolution, to date unclaimed...

I really could link scientific study after study that prove various principals of evolution. Again you are forgetting, it is a group of hypotheses that make this theory... not a single hypothesis...

However, I will not, as this is not the intent of this thread... and I will save the OP from seeing his thread degenerate completely...

Sorry OP!

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by angel of lightangelo

 

Can you give me one scientific fact that proves Evolution?

I have no problem with the argument but Evolution has no place here. Thank you to those that actually respected that. Shame on the Christians that ran from giving us god and instead asked us to prove something completely off topic to him. Want to fight about that, feel free here.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
....science and its laws and math that prove these laws seems a little to organized to be random. To me that's proof of something bigger behind the scenes. at least IMHO

See, I get that. But here is where I lose it.

Christians usually toss out evolution immediately over the "missing link" argument right?

Ok, now lets expand your theory.
Jesus(God) said he is forever, everywhere, all the time.
Jesus(God) said he is the light

In physics we learned the light is first of all, everywhere.
It travles at the speed of light so the light in front of me is also reaching the person on the other side of the room at the same time. So light is everywhere at the same time.
Since time is irrelelvant at the speed of light, then light is at all places, all the time, at once right?

OK, it is not amazing but it was a start. I thought that was interesting. I think you went where I hoped it would go but I have one question. Between all the science that is so ordered, so beutifully "designed" or whatever, and an actual higher being, where is the missing link and why don't Christians have the same reservations there?

Well, I personally do not think ANY religion has it right. I think we are a bunch of monkey flying around on a dirt ball trying to figure out things we do not understand once person says the Sun the giver of life to the planet was GOD. Moses has his GOD, etc. Whos right , Id say no one.

I do believe there is more. Though more then we can probably ever figure out correctly. I think its quite arrogant when people say "no this is what GOD wants". And even more insulting (To God) when they say GOD couldnt be part of the big bang, evolution etc) Seems to me that's the hard way to create a system, not the easy way they(Creationists) write about (or I like to call the I dream of Genie version, where God twinkled his nose and there were people).

Most Christians I know ( and I was brought up Irish Catholic) Believe in Evolution, Big Bang etc, Because these are pretty well proven facts, the priest where I went to school, believed it as well, I think Christians have gotten a bad rap because of their crazy fundamentalist cousins, with the whole rapture garbage as well. ( Was made up in the 1800s lol)

On the light speed thing though, See light does have a speed limit and is not everywhere though. in fact if you stood two feet behind me, you are seeing into the past, granted .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 milli seconds (or some outrageously small number) But for example when you look at the moon, your looking at it eight mins ago. But Light does travel for ever, and seems to be one of the major governing factors of the universe.

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
But for example when you look at the moon, your looking at it eight mins ago. But Light does travel for ever, and seems to be one of the major governing factors of the universe.

Sorry Sift... felt the need to correct the math a little bit before people decide to chew you to pieces...

when you look at the moon, you're seeing it about 2.5 seconds ago... when you look at the sun, you are seeing it as it was 8 mins ago...

Good math, wrong celestial body

Originally posted by nj2day

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
But for example when you look at the moon, your looking at it eight mins ago. But Light does travel for ever, and seems to be one of the major governing factors of the universe.

Sorry Sift... felt the need to correct the math a little bit before people decide to chew you to pieces...

when you look at the moon, you're seeing it about 2.5 seconds ago... when you look at the sun, you are seeing it as it was 8 mins ago...

Good math, wrong celestial body

LOL When your right, your right! =) Here is one to add to the 10 commandments.

Thou Shall Google before typing to confirm his facts. =)

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo
So what do you think has so many people still willing to believe in gods in the year 2008 when it is so obviously unscientific? Know what I'm sayin?

Science = Action/Reaction.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Science has the rule that everything must be repeatable and predictable.

Philosophy = Reasoning/Understanding/Choice.

When an action occurs, it can be reasoned, understood and then the reaction is not by default equal and opposite. This is provided by consciousness. Because this is not predictable, science is ill equipped to deal with it. It is not repeatable, predictable etc. The only part of science that has even attempted to include consciousness is quantum physics - which I think has more merit than conventional science.

The "war" you see going on before you is a war on consciousness. All of it. God = pure consciousness, and as such it is a war on God. Society through manipulation, fear and many other methods try to get people to be nothing more than action and reaction. Give up your individuality(your soul) and conform to the action/reaction of a manipulated society.

Because then people are more easily controlled. Just like a rocket which gives great power because it is all predictable and nothing more than action/reaction.

Why believe in god? Let me put it to you this way. Do you know what it is "to be"? I think therefore "I AM"?. Do you know and observe what it is to exist? As a conscious being - if there is no god, then you are god. The "observer" of creation. That which is not of this universe of action/reaction. You can not get randomness out of action/reaction - not even a computer can generate a truly random number.

What does it mean to be? To what and to whom are the images your eyes bring in presented to? What does it mean to "feel"? Sure, it's a way of telling you something is contacting you, but what is it to actually "feel"? To what is this reality being presented to? What are YOU?

Consciousness is eternal, can't be created or destroyed, it is that piece of god inside you and if you tap into that, you will find your connection to god. But you sure aren't going to find it in this external universe looking in Science that only knows action/reaction.

I believe in god because of experience. And the only way to explain it is not through science, but through philosophy.

Originally posted by nj2day
when you look at the sun, you are seeing it as it was 8 mins ago...

I thought when you looked at the sun it was like masterbation as both are said to make you go blind.

If you look at the sun and you go blind isn't that like saying if you look into the past you go blind?

Originally posted by ShiftTrio


On the light speed thing though, See light does have a speed limit and is not everywhere though. in fact if you stood two feet behind me, you are seeing into the past, granted .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 milli seconds (or some outrageously small number) But for example when you look at the moon, your looking at it eight mins ago. But Light does travel for ever, and seems to be one of the major governing factors of the universe.

Tsk tsk tsk. You are forgetting about relativity. I am looking at the sun and seeing the light it sent 8 minutes ago right? The light I am seeing still exsists though, because I am seeing it.
8 minutes ago it exsisted on the sun right?
OK, now relative to everything else if i get on the light I am looking at and go the speed of light, i reach the sun at the same time i left right? To me no time will pass. To you it will be 8 minutes. It is all the same light though isnt it?

p.s. let me try to clarify. the light I am on is with me at the time i am on it. I am on it when i leave earth and when i reach the sun. I am traveling the speed of light to the sun. The light i left on is the light i travel with and arrive with. and to me, it was instantaneous. You were watching and this entire trip lasted 8 minutes to you. You could see me leave, you could see the light as it went from, the earth to the sun (i.e. you can see all the way to the sun right?)'


So for your 8 minutes you are staring at the exact same light that I am on for only fraction of time but over a huge distance. The exact same light does all that. It is here, there, and everywhere in between in 8 minutes as well as instantly. It all depends on where you look at it from but it is still the same light here, on the sun and for 8 minuts and no time at all. make sense now?

[edit on 13-12-2008 by angel of lightangelo]

One problem with this kind of topics is that "God" doesn't necessarily have the same meaning for everyone.

In theory, if God is a "perfect concept", it can never really be rationally "proved" - since we are unable to absolutely understand it - or even define it in such a manner that it won't leave anything out and may satisfy all! What exactly is God? Can anyone give an absolute answer to that? We can choose to believe there is "God" - or not. But even though we give it a "label" - we cannot really understand what the concept behind is - because to be able to rationally understand God is to be God!

That's why at the end of the day, all debates on this issue are limited to different "aspects" of "God", such as "a supernatural being", "a creator of universe", etc - but not to God itself, the sum of all aspects. Ironically, one could even argue that a creator of universe may not necessarily be God! Therefore, how can you really ever expect to rationally prove or disprove "God"?!

[edit on 13-12-2008 by zamolxis]

reply to post by Incarnated


Scientists look at the sun everyday... there are multiple solar observatories throughout the world...