Holiday Skirmish: schrodingers dog vs budski: "On Comet, On Cupid, On Donner; It's True!", page

Ladies and gentlemen, I ask you, in the name of all that is kind and pure, what kind of heartless grinch amongst us would propose in this the merriest of seasons, that Santa has been disingenuous about his means of propulsion for all these years?

Calling Santa a liar no less!

Why not question the existence of Santa Claus himself?

Quite frankly I wouldn't put it past my opponent's jaded heart. For anyone who is willing to question Santa's credibility might as well question his existence and go ahead and spit in the eyes of all the children in the world.

There I said it!

However I am not one to attempt to win this debate by pulling on your emotional strings.

Santa is real, we all know that and it is not up for debate. However I doubt my opponent will concede this, he has his own maker to face for his insolence. So for his sake, I will spend the first part of this debate establishing this fact once and for all. As soon as this is established beyond question, and without shattering the hopes of millions of children, I will move on to prove that he achieves his good deeds via the means of his sleigh and the flying reindeer which propel it.

Do keep in mind that the flying reindeer which are selected for this honorable mission are not the only flying reindeer. They are, if I main use a "Top Gun" colloquialism, the best of the best. It is true, and it might come as a surprise to those of you who are not privy to the extensive academic zoological research done on the sub-species of the flying reindeer. We will delve into this fascinating research in due course.

Let us for the time being dispose of any of my opponent's emotionally questionable reasons for doubting the existence of Santa Claus.

The existence of Santa Claus is confirmed by many of our institutions:

1. He is a recognized Saint of Christianity.

Saint Nicholas (Greek: Άγιος Νικόλαος , Agios Nikolaos, "victory of the people") (270 - December 6, 346) is the common name for Nicholas of Myra, a saint and Bishop of Myra (in Lycia, part of modern-day Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nicholas the Wonderworker. He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and is now commonly identified with Santa Claus.St. Nicholas

2. He is registered at the post office.

WASHINGTON, DC - Santa Claus has a lot in common with the United States Postal Service. Santa's customer satisfaction levels directly relate to consistent, on-time delivery. Neither rain nor snow nor heat nor gloom of night keeps Santa and his dedicated helpers from providing joy at millions of homes the world over. While Santa's been doing it a bit longer than the Postal Service, for more than two centuries he's relied almost exclusively on U.S. Postal Service letter carriers to bring him letters from girls and boys all across America.USPS

3. He is tracked by the government.

The NORAD Tracks Santa Web site is the form of a public relations program by the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). Every year for over fifty years on Christmas Eve NORAD has told stories of how their powerful tracking systems such as the Distant Early Warning Line (DEW Line) detected Santa Claus leaving the North Pole to deliver his presents.Wiki

There's no getting around that Santa Claus is indeed real. He is as real as baby Jesus and dark matter. And he is real in our heart and spirit.

Socratic Question 1

Are you calling Santa a liar?


Now that the existence of Santa has been firmly established I will spend the remainder of the debate directly addressing the topic at hand. Flying reindeer are real creatures, the best of their species are chosen to ambulate Mr Claus as he makes his rounds to fulfill the hopes and dreams of children worldwide. My opponent is bound to use much deflection and misdirection to detract you from this inescapable fact, do not allow him to succeed. Ladies and gentlemen, think of the children!

Forgive my opponent for lacking the etiquette of the debate forum - allow me to thank our kind mods who have set up this wonderfull skirmish event, who have organised, collated and produced some great topics. Allow me also to thank our readers, and to the judges who have been patient while I do my Halle at the Oscars speech.

The proposition, is simple as is my argument.

Ladies and gentlemen, I implore

nay beseech thee

to remember common sense - and remember that there was only one Reindeer that ever flew.

In the 1948 novel No Highway by Nevil Shute the improbable Rutland Reindeer appeared - based on the Bristol Brabazon, probably - and because it is a fictional plane, it never actually even flew.

My good and respected guests, I appeal to your common sense.

Donner and Blitzen??? or should that be "und"

Ladies and gents
The modern fairy tale of flying reindeers is akin to believing in mount olympus and the gods of greece and the pantheon.

My opponent asks
Are you calling Santa a liar?
Well,
frankly,
yes.

Santa says he comes down the chimney - I don't have a chimney, but I still get gifts.
Does this mean that santa has lied to me?

Yes.

I would like to see my opponent name "santa's reindeer" (in inverted comma's in order to negate the obvious ploy that sdog would try and use) and appraise us of their characteristics - after all, there must be some evidence of them.

I offer evidence, science and logic.

My opponent offers you hopes and dreams.

In an ideal world, I would take hopes and dreams every time.

But we don't live in an ideal world - submit that this is the right thing to do.

I submit that we must be honest with our loved ones.

I submit that at least 2 of santa's reindeers were nazi's - and of course I mean the model on which the myth is based as my basis.

I submit that my opponent has no case, and I move for a vote of no confidence against him.

Socratic Questions.
1. What means of propulsion do reindeer use?
2. What are the aerodynamic properties of Antlers?
3. Do you believe in the tooth fairy, and if yes, how do you feel about someone rummaging under your pillow while you sleep, looking for milk teeth?
4. If santa said he was coming down the chimney and he instead miraculously materialised would you think he was a bit creepy for sneaking into kids rooms?
5. Would you say that reindeer propulsion in the manner of flying is difficult to impossible, and if so, how do you propose that reindeers fly?


I further submit that my opponent will now obfuscate, procrastinate and generally try and muddy the waters.

But let's not forget what this debate is about - only one reindeer has ever been documented on flying, and that was just another plane in disguise.

My assertion, is that reindeer do NOT and CANNOT fly.

My opponent offers you hopes and dreams.

Wow, slow down there skippy, we're getting to the science of it all.

Socratic Question 1. What means of propulsion do reindeer use?

I am overjoyed that you have asked me this question, it is after all the whole crux of the debate. Let me begin by using one of my image source allotments to share this academic research based video with you:



There you have it, "extended leaping" with each leap reaching hundreds of miles!

In fact, here's a rare picture from the archives of the Oregon Zoo of a reindeer caught practicing flight.



Do hear something?
That is the sound of my opponent leaping, dare I say flying to his computer, to lodge a semantic protest.

"Ladies and gentlemen (he says that a lot), leaping is not flying."

Well actually it is. For what is flight but the simple ability to remain airborne over great distances. If a squirrel which can leap/fly but for a few feet can be categorized as "flying squirrel" surely reindeer which have been scientifically documented to leap for hundreds of miles are in effect flying reindeer.

End of debate really. However for the sake of comedic indulgence I will continue to address my opponent's evil questions.

Socratic Question 2. What are the aerodynamic properties of Antlers?

Do I have to explain every little thing to you?

The mathematician Ian Stewart of Warwick University in England says that ''reindeer have a curious arrangement of gadgetry on top of their heads which we call antlers and naively assume exist for the males to do battle to win females. This is absolute nonsense. The antlers are actually fractal vortex-shedding devices. We are talking not aerodynamics here, but antlaerodynamics.'' This phenomenon arises on the wingtips of a Concorde, but it is only apparent on antlers at very high velocity. However, in order to deliver all the presents, the reindeer are forced to fly at speeds of 6,000 times the speed of sound, far in excess of the speed required for antlers to generate lift. time.com

Socratic Question 3. Do you believe in the tooth fairy, and if yes, how do you feel about someone rummaging under your pillow while you sleep, looking for milk teeth?

Misdirection and sarcasm will get you nowhere in this debate other than to magnify your apparent anaphylactic relationship with facts, science, and all things jolly. It is not enough that your calling Santa a liar, now you're having a go at the tooth fairy, no doubt calling the sweet thing a clepto. Is there any child's dream that you do not wish to crush?

Socratic Question 4. If santa said he was coming down the chimney and he instead miraculously materialised would you think he was a bit creepy for sneaking into kids rooms?

No I would not. Santa is the kindest soul in the world. All he does is give and only asks that you be good to your fellow man. That is why he is a saint.

Socratic Question 5. Would you say that reindeer propulsion in the manner of flying is difficult to impossible, and if so, how do you propose that reindeers fly?

See question 1.
Is not reading your own post a new debate tactic for you?


I see that my opponent has even further questions than the ones alloted to him by the debate rules. This of course could have easily been avoided if he hadn't asked the same question twice. In fact it seems that questions is all my opponent has to offer in this debate rather than taking the time to construct his own christmas ruining argument. I as always I'm happy to answer his questions, after all. education is the only path from ignorance.

I would like to see my opponent name "santa's reindeer" (in inverted comma's in order to negate the obvious ploy that sdog would try and use) and appraise us of their characteristics - after all, there must be some evidence of them.

The reindeer named in the song aren't the only ones you can see in flight. Besides Dancer, Dasher, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, Blitzen and Rudolph, there are many other reindeer capable of flying. The famous reindeer may need a break, so try the names Toby (Toboggan), Mel, Otto, Tinsel, Star, Manny, Holly, Nogg (Eggnog) and Belle.
bch

I further submit that my opponent will now obfuscate, procrastinate and generally try and muddy the waters.

Sorry to disappoint you. Should you have any other questions, do hesitate to ask.

________________________________________________________________

Socratic Question 1

I submit that at least 2 of santa's reindeers were nazi's

Other than the grammatical error, could you please elaborate on your statement, the children are all ears.








[edit on 12/14/2008 by semperfortis]

And there we have it.

Leaping is not flying - I'm so very glad that my opponent pointed out my grammatical error, for it shows he holds language and its usage in high esteem, and as we can see from definitions, leaping is NOT flying

leap (lp) v. leaped or leapt (lpt, lpt), leap·ing, leaps v.intr.
. To spring or bound upward from or as if from the ground; jump: leaped over the wall; salmon leaping upriver.

[1]

fly·ing (flng)
adj.
1. Of or relating to aviation:
2. Capable of or engaged in flight:

[2]

Lest we forget, the title of this debate is “Santa's Reindeer Are Real And They Fly Too"
In the title, I direct your attention to the word FLY
Nowhere in the title is extended leaping mentioned.

I would also direct my opponent to my socratic questions - numbers 2 (failed to answer - I asked for the aerodynamic properties of antlers, which were not provided), 3 (it is not for him to decide whether the question merits an answer, he only need answer it) and number 5 (which is distinct from question 1 in that I first asked for propulsion and am now asking how they fly - lift, power to weight ratios and all that flying entails)
Please be so good as to abide by the rules of the forum and provide straightforward answers.
This is something I insist upon.

And now for the real science, rather than the fluff my "esteemed" opponent has been attempting to drip feed you.

An adult reindeer weighs between 130 and 700 lbs, depending on the sex and the time of year - in the autumn males are heaviest.
So in Santa's alleged team of flying reindeer of eight, the maximum weight would be around 5,600 lbs.

Given that there are almost 2 billion children in the world, and for the sake of argument we minus 10% because of naughtiness, that still gives us 1.8 billion children.

I wish to be generous here, so let's say that each present, with wrapping weighs only half a pound (unlikely, as toys are SO heavy these days)

This gives us a CARGO weight of 900 million pounds - and that is before we consider the weight of the sleigh and the weight of santa (who is a rather corpulant man)

Does my opponent really expect us to believe that reindeer weighing around 5,600 lbs can even "leap" with a cargo weight of presents alone of millions of tons?

In oirder to carry this amount, the sled alone would need to weigh hundreds of millions of tons.

The heaviest cargo transporter in the world cannot carry this amount.

But eight reindeer can?

mmmm' kay......

Let's also not forget something rather crucial in answer to the image posted by my opponent - male reindeer shed their antlers at the beginning of winter, so the "photograph" he posted has obviously been doctored - either that or all the reindeer are female, which would then take the total weight of the sled towers to around 2,400 lbs, which would make it even less plausible that they could pull the sled, and begging the question of why female reindeer are named with male names.

I shall be generous once again in believing that he must have been taken in by this obvious fake, rather than knowingly posting false material, so desperate was he to find evidence for his theory.

Answer to socratic question

Other than the grammatical error, could you please elaborate on your statement, the children are all ears.

In the original poem about alleged santa's reindeer, the names of two of the reindeer were "Dunder" and "Blixem"
These names were later changed to "Donner" and "Blitzen" or thunder and lightning - a clear reference to the nazi blitzkrieg strategy of warfare, and the nazi iconography of twin lightning bolts on SS uniforms.

So we now enter the realm of conspiracy.

The Real Purpose of Christmas
In a diabolical attempt to beguile children and some of the more gullible adults, we have been brought up on a steady diet of lies, half truths and misinformation, so that commercialsim may profit even more at a specific time of year, no doubt intended to boost the balance sheet so that company directors could "earn" their yearly bonus.

Is it any accident that christmas, jolly old St Nick and the tradition of present giving was thrust upon us at a time of year when shops do not sell much?

And then there is also the great turkey conspiracy, which I shall come to in due course.

Christmas in its modern form was invented for the purpose of keeping stores, factories etc prosperous all year round, and because of this obvious ploy to get us to part with our hard earned cash, it must also be true that "santa's" reindeer are also a ruse to lull the gullible into paying for THEIR end of year office party.

Since the 16th century, the wiley protestants have been onto this scam, and indeed Oliver Cronwell went so far as to ban christmas on religious grounds.

Rev. Paul Nedergaard a clergyman in Copenhagen, Denmark, called santa a pagan goblin, and the Jehovah's Witnesses reject christmas altogether!

Indeed, it is only in the west that christmas is celebrated in such a materialistic way - more meat for the grist of conspiracy theory.

Because of this, and more evidence which will be produced, I will show that not only does santa NOT exist, but neither do "his" reindeer.

Socratic Questions.
1. How do reindeer pull such a formidable load. (I will not accept Monty Python comparisons to swallows - we are talking about reindeer here)
2. In modern PC parlance santa would be arrested as a paedophile for sneaking into childrens rooms at night and grooming them with gifts - does the fact that he has never been caught or arrested or even sighted mean that does not exist?
3. Given satellite technology as well as radar and other forms of detection, why have there been no documented sightings of Santa and his alleged flying reindeer by the authorities?
4. Why are "the children" so imortant to you?
5. Are the reindeer of the fairytale male or female?

As I predicted, my semantically challenged opponent is attempting to scuttle this debate with his silly words.

Lest we forget, the title of this debate is “Santa's Reindeer Are Real And They Fly Too"
In the title, I direct your attention to the word FLY
Nowhere in the title is extended leaping mentioned.

Nothing could be further from the truth. "Flying" is a broad term encompassing all that can remain airborne over great distances. Flight is achieved via many instruments, birds use locomotive wings, bats and flying squirrels use membranes, rockets and planes use fossil fuels, UFOs use magic, and naturally flying reindeer use extended leaping. It's no use throwing definitions at this debate if you are not going to take the time to understand them. Leaping is the method flying is the end result, couldn't be simpler really.

What my opponent fails to prove with words he tries to destroy with mathematics.

An adult reindeer weighs between 130 and 700 lbs, depending on the sex and the time of year - in the autumn males are heaviest.
So in Santa's alleged team of flying reindeer of eight, the maximum weight would be around 5,600 lbs.

See right there your premise collapses onto itself like a poor man's soufflé. You are using data from ordinary reindeer which are obviously much heavier than flying reindeer. The reason for this is simple, if ordinary reindeer were as light as flying reindeer this would happen to them:

Flying reindeer have an extraordinary combination of lightness and strength, they are more than capable in propelling Santa, his sleigh, and the children's gifts across the sky at fantastic speeds.

As to your answer to my socratic question...

In the original poem about alleged santa's reindeer, the names of two of the reindeer were "Dunder" and "Blixem"
These names were later changed to "Donner" and "Blitzen" or thunder and lightning - a clear reference to the nazi blitzkrieg strategy of warfare, and the nazi iconography of twin lightning bolts on SS uniforms.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Watch out for those thunderstorms, they're fascist. You are a very silly man.



Socratic Question 1. How do reindeer pull such a formidable load. (I will not accept Monty Python comparisons to swallows - we are talking about reindeer here)

The same way that ants are built to carry a formidable load, baby Jesus built them that way. Though I suspect you will also question his existence and motives.

Socratic Question 2. In modern PC parlance santa would be arrested as a pedophile for sneaking into children's rooms at night and grooming them with gifts - does the fact that he has never been caught or arrested or even sighted mean that does not exist?

If you can find an example where the real Santa has behaved inappropriately towards any child we are all ears. If not I ask you that you keep your ungodly and perverted thoughts to yourself, unless of course there is a personal experience you wish to share with us.

Santa hasn't been caught or arrested because he's the very essence of purity and virtue and no one is after him. Again, unless you can provide a warrant your accusations are nothing but unsubstantiated slander aimed at soiling Santa's good name.

Socratic Question 3. Given satellite technology as well as radar and other forms of detection, why have there been no documented sightings of Santa and his alleged flying reindeer by the authorities?

Like I have already explained the authorities including NORAD are fully aware of Santa's activities. So the idea that there has been no sighting is flat out nincompoopery.

In fact here's a map of Santa's route from last year as documented by NORAD:



And here is map showing all confirmed sightings:


Confirmed Santa Sightings

Santa is obviously secretive by nature, but as you can see, he and his flying reindeer are not invisible. If you open your eyes and your cold cynical heart even you could see them. Though after the things you've said, I wouldn't expect him to drop by.

Socratic Question 4. Why are "the children" so important to you?

Children are the future.

Socratic Question 5. Are the reindeer of the fairy tale male or female?

Fairy tale, what fairy tale?
And what is your obsession with sex?
Flying reindeer as has already been explained, are a rare but documented sub-species. As such there are both boy and girl flying reindeer.

I have a pre-socratic question for you.

Can you please use spellcheck? I'm tired of correcting your quotes as well as your argument.

Well it's settled, my opponent is going straight to hell.
He's had a go at flying reindeer, Santa, thunderstorms, nazis, AND baby Jesus.
Let's not forget the children!

My opponent keeps harping on the idea that Santa and his flying reindeer couldn't possibly deliver all the toys to all the deserving children in the time alloted for this deed. Whilst it is true that population increase has made Santa's job more difficult, it has not made it impossible. Santa is a pragmatic man and is not afraid to ask for help and to use the latest technology at his disposal.

NEWS RELEASE

National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Assists Santa Claus.
BETHESDA, Md.— This holiday season, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) again offered its expertise to one very special customer -- Santa Claus. After being overwhelmed by a growing world demand, Santa approached NGA and asked for help to streamline his Christmas Eve deliveries. “You helped me out last year and I need some new routes that will let me move around the world quickly and efficiently,” he said.

NGA combined satellite imagery with its map and chart making expertise to upgrade a digital navigation system that focused on Santa’s problem. Called NGA TOY DELIVERY SYSTEM X-100, this specialized geospatial intelligence product was specifically formatted to let Santa create quick and easy routes around the globe. Since its development in 2006, NGA has made several enhancements to the system, resulting in increased speed and accuracy.www.nga.mil.

And to further impress upon you the real nature of Santa and his flying reindeer we have this bit of news:

RALEIGH (AP) -- Gov. Mike Easley has temporarily lifted the ban on importing reindeer into North Carolina and has asked the Federal Aviation Administration to keep the skies clear over the state on Christmas Eve.

Easley is keeping with holiday tradition to make sure Santa Claus and his flying reindeer will be able to visit North Carolina to deliver gifts for Christmas.

Easley granted a temporary reprieve to flying reindeer beginning on Christmas Eve and lasting through early Christmas morning.wway3

Yet one more official confirmation of the existence of flying reindeer.

______________________________________________________________

Socratic Question 1. Why have you still not answered previous socratic questions...

For the record, ALL of your socratic questions have been answered to MY satisfaction. Though I did notice that my question from my previous post was ignored both in spirit and in practice.

Socratic Question 2. Why is so much of the globe missed by "santa" on the fabricated map you posted?

Holding your breath and pouting does not make the map "fabricated," NORAD is as serious as it gets, they don't go releasing information haphazardly and without proper clearance. As to the flight specifics, Santa's flight plan is his own to keep, he isn't required to justify it to anyone.

Socratic Question 3. Where is the real documented evidence, from a reputable source, that a different type of reindeer exists (cartoons don't count unfortunately).

Did you watch the video I provided? Flying reindeer with their "extended leaping" capabilities are fully explained in super-scientific terms as an existing sub-species by an animal behavioralist. But if you need further evidence:

FAA Clears Santa's Flight Plan
Inspectors find Clause fit to engage in interstate air transportation

Kris Kringle, d.b.a Santa Claus, got the green light today from the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to engage in air travel to various points throughout the United States the night of Dec. 24-25.

An order granting a flight certificate and signed by U.S. Transportation Secretary Rodney E. Slater said that Santa Claus was "exceptionally fit, as well as joyfully willing and uniquely able to engage in the interstate air transportation for which he has requested a certificate." The Secretary added that Santa has a 100 percent on-time arrival record, having never failed to deliver all of his toys by Christmas morning.

The applicant notes that his operating proposal will meet the air service requirements of countless small communities, and also will serve the major transportation hubs in all regions.

Santa Claus also told DOT that his sleigh will be powered by eight tiny reindeer, with the addition of a possible ninth reindeer with a special air navigation warning light in its nose, in the event of fog or heavy snow.usgovinfo

Now let us see, what does the FAA regulate? Oh that's right,

Flight!

Socratic Question 4. If "santa" provides all the gifts, why are the shops so busy at this time of year...

Nowhere does it say that Santa's gifts are the only gifts to be given. Good news for you!

...and why do naughty children still receive gifts?

I believe you are better qualified to answer this question on account of your own penchant for extreme naughtiness. Imo, some parents are way too forgiving.

Socratic Question 5. How does "santa" culturally quantify naughtiness, and why should it be different according to culture?

He makes his own determinations, he's very good at it. He is also interactive and takes advantage of the internet: northpole.com