Holiday Skirmish: GAOTU789 vs 44soulslayer: Santa’s Battle Of The Bulge?, page 1
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Topic started on 12-12-2008 @ 11:04 AM by MemoryShock
The topic for this debate is “Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

GAOTU789 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
44soulslayer will argue the con position.

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[edit on 13-12-2008 by MemoryShock]


reply posted on 13-12-2008 @ 10:04 PM by GAOTU789
Merry Christmas everyone.

All the standard thank you's are in place for this debate, including my opponent, 44soulslayer, good luck mate and let's have some fun with this subject.

“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

I bet you all think I'm going to tell you about how healthy it is for the jolly old fellow to eat low fat cookies and drink low fat milk.

Well, I might use that train of thought, being the obvious one and all.

There are a myriad of other reasons to feed Santa healthy cookies and milk though. Have any of you seen "The Santa Clause"? or any of the sequels?
Or how about Fred Claus, the story about Santa's brother. Santa has it hard. He has a big sweet tooth to begin with and couple that for the one night he gets to step into the proverbial spotlight, he has to gorge on high fat, artery clogging snacks that we think are helping him get through the night. Imagine the sugar rush the old guy gets every Christmas Eve? Also, as the Santa Clause showed, he isn't immortal, not in the strictest sense of the word anyway. He can and does die. I just think that it is better for the mans health to keep it low fat/low cholesterol when it comes to treats we leave him.I'll explore why this is important to the old guy and by extension, millions upon millions of children around the world.

Could you imagine what would happen if Santa met an untimely end and no-one was around to pick up the suit and carry on like Scott Calvin did? If we keep feeding him those fat laden cookies, that just might be what happens. I know I don't want to be the parent that has to tell the kids that
Santa didn't make it this year because of those fatty, heart stopping treats we and every one else left out for him.

No thank you.

That is why, at my house, we leave him Skim Milk and low fat Chocolate Chip cookies as my daughter is also concerned about his health. He eats them, no crumbs on the plate or anything. Well, I guess he eats them anyway. They're gone
on Christmas Morning so I assume that is what he did.


I mean Santa's life is hard. It is only natural to want to feed him healthy drinks and snacks on his big day isn't it?

OK, imagine having to do what Santa does just for a minute. You have to work hard for all year to prepare for the trip around the world. You have to be able to remember where all those naughty boys and girls live. The Reindeer need to be able to carry all those toys and your fat butt too. If for no other reason to feed Santa Low fat and Cholesterol type drinks and snacks, do it for the reindeer. I'll show you why this important through out the course of this discussion also.

I mean, every one leaves a carrot out for the animals. That is a nice healthy snack.

Socratic Question
1.Don't you care about Santa too?

Imagine the stress on Mrs. Claus also. Knowing that her overweight, junk food loving husband is going out to binge on all those oh so bad for you treats. That might be enough to cause her some problems too. Stress does that too you.

Both short and long-term stress can have effects on your body. Research is starting to show the serious effects of stress on our bodies. Stress triggers changes in our bodies and makes us more likely to get sick. It can also make problems we already have worse. It can play a part in these problems:

Trouble sleeping, headaches, constipation, diarrhea, irritability, lack of energy, lack of concentration, eating too much or not at all, anger, sadnesshigher risk of asthma and arthritis flare-ups, tension stomach cramping and bloating,skin problems, like hives,depression anxiety,weight gain or loss,heart problems,high blood pressure, irritable bowel syndrome, diabetes, neck and/or back pain, less sexual desire, harder to get pregnant.

source

Are these the type of things we want for Mrs. Claus? I know I don't. This is another aspect of the healthy snack premise I'll touch on more later. We have to remember, what we feed Santa doesn't just affect him but millions of other people around the world too, including his wife and his pets. I haven't even mentioned the elves yet. They are an entirely different reason.

Could you imagine an army of little elves running around, leaderless with all that free time? I'm sure they would get up to no good. It could be terrible for international relations between the US and Russia. God knows what mischief they could cause all alone up at the North Pole without Santa to keep them busy on the toy making. I shudder to think about it.

So with that, I'll pass it over to 44 for his opening.

Edit for coding.

[edit on 13-12-2008 by MemoryShock]



reply posted on 14-12-2008 @ 06:01 AM by 44soulslayer
Seasons greetings and Merry Christmas to you all!

Thanks to the organisers and my opponent for the opportunity to debate this issue of nutritional gravitas

The issue stands before us : “Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

My opponent has put forth some modern and rather radical impressions of Santa Claus. However let’s all take a minute to think back to our own childhood. Do you remember waiting on Christmas eve impatiently, hoping to stay up long enough to catch a glimpse of old Father Christmas? That is the magic of Santa… and that is the spirit which we must remember when thinking about this issue.

We all know that Santa is a jolly old man who lives in the far north of Lapland, is immortal (as he has been delivering presents for many thousands of years!), and is married to Mrs Claus. We also know that Santa has always struggled with… shall we say, a rather uncontrollable BMI!

So if we use this traditional image of Santa, we can see that he is clearly immortal. His immense girth is of historical status… his vitality is seemingly unaffected by it.

Leaving low fat, low cholesterol foodstuffs out for Santa would do nothing but leave him unsatisfied and eventually emaciated! Think about how many houses Santa has to visit on Christmas night- I’m sure that the fat in those cookies and milk is all that keeps him going.

Furthermore we have to consider that Santa has historically been rather rotund. His jolly, rotund image is all that prevents him from being assaulted as an intruder! Imagine a thin man with a beard dropping down your chimney… rather than leaving cookies for him, you would probably hit him with a bat. Children would also be unhappy with Santa if he couldn’t shake his belly like a bowl full of jelly. Is that what we want? To have a bunch of sad children and Santa wounded after being mistaken for a burglar?

Answers to Socratic questions

1. Yes I care about Santa too! You also mentioned Mrs Claus and the stress she would feel knowing that Santa is out eating all that unhealthy stuff.

If we work off the historical accounts of Santa, he is immortal. So Mrs Claus would feel no stress. Furthermore, it would in fact cause her more stress if Santa were to lose weight… since she is plainly what is known colloquially as a chubby chaser.

Summary of points

1. Santa is immortal and therefore it doesn’t matter what he eats!
2. Santa conducts some serious aerobic exercise on Christmas eve and therefore needs the calories from the cookies and milk! Furthermore high fat and high cholesterol cookies and milk taste better- we all want Santa to have a treat.
3. Santa needs to maintain his weight to retain a jolly, rotund appearance for children.
4. Mrs Claus likes Santa’s weight. Doesn’t my opponent want her to have “more cushion for the pushin”. Santa losing weight would cause undue stress for Mrs Claus.


reply posted on 14-12-2008 @ 10:10 PM by GAOTU789
“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

Reply 1.

I had no idea that my image of Santa was either Modern or radical. I am merely describing the man has seen through the eyes of Hollywood today.
As a matter of fact, I see what Santa has become as a direct result of the millions upon millions of cookies that he must consume
every year. Let"s have a look at what ole Saint Nick used to look like, back in the day.

.

Does that look like a man with a BMI issues?

Let's contrast that with today and what miilenia of gorging on sweets and whole milk have done to him and his sucessors.



Socratic Question 1.

Can't you see what all that unhealthy substances that Santa eats is doing to him?

Ok, quickly, we need to address a point made by opponent.
So if we use this traditional image of Santa, we can see that he is clearly immortal.


I agree that he is immortal but in a very different way than you seem to claim. The card that Scott Calvin finds in the Santa suit after he falls off the roof states.

The Santa Clause: In putting on this suit and entering the sleigh, the wearer waives any and all rights to any previous identity, real or implied, and fully accepts
the duties and responsibilities of Santa Claus, in perpetuity until such time that the wearer becomes unable to do so, by either accident or design.

source

So indeed Santa is immortal but he can and has been replaced by a new person, whom in turn becomes Santa. I mean the original Santa is a Saint. You have to be dead to be a saint.
And one other thing before we move on.

rather than leaving cookies for him, you would probably hit him with a bat.


Socratic Question 2.

You wouldn't do that to him just because he isn't a big old fat guy, would you?

So lets look at just what we feed Santa when we kepep piling up these little doughy balls of death.

The average fat content for cookies is 3-5% of your Recommended Daily Intake of saturated fat. That is per cookie. Now think about how many cookies he has to eat. Millions.
The man gets several years of Saturated fat in one night.
source

What about that milk? If you give him cow's milk, 3.25% mf, he only needs 100 glasses to get his RDI of saturated fat and cholesterol. He'll get that in one neighbourhood.
If you leave him goat's milk, he only needs to hit 11 houses to hit his RDI.
source

Compare that with Soy milk. 0% fat, 0% cholesterol. Much better for Santa
source

There is no way that even with the enormous amount of exercise that Santa does at Christmas, he could never burn all those calories off.

So it very easy to see, to help prolong each Santa's term, it is much better that...

Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.

In the next post, I'll move on to the Reindeer and how a trimmer, healthier Santa is good for them.

[edit on 12/14/2008 by semperfortis]


reply posted on 15-12-2008 @ 12:57 PM by 44soulslayer
Rebuttal section

My opponent brings up a good point about the historical depiction of Saint Nicholas. However, the question is do we consider Santa Claus and St. Nicholas to be the same person? The fact is that the tradition of Christmas is syncretic; and the tradition of Santa Claus is distinct from St. Nick.

Evidence: en.wikipedia.org...

Even if we work off the assumption that the two are the same, it still goes back to the point that St Nick is supposed to be overweight as part of his image! If anything, Santa’s popularity has risen immensely in correlation to his girth.

Socratic answer number 1 :

Yes I can see that Santa did indeed put on weight over time; however given that the tradition started over a thousand years ago- the old chap is doing rather alright!

Santa’s immortality is part and parcel of the illusion and magic surrounding his character. Let me just ask you this : Would you tell your daughter that Santa can die? The mortality ascribed to Santa by a filmmaker does not outweigh centuries of tradition!

Socratic answer number 2:

Santa is distinguished by his girth. Imagine waking up in the middle of the night on Christmas eve… if you walked downstairs and saw a jolly looking rotund chap dusting soot off himself would you be threatened or would you instantly equate that classic image to Santa Claus? Now compare that to your response if you saw a really thin person dropping down your chimney.


Furthermore you stated :

What about that milk? If you give him cow's milk, 3.25% mf, he only needs 100 glasses to get his RDI of saturated fat and cholesterol. He'll get that in one neighbourhood.


Dare I say that the RDI is for a normal person conducting normal activities on a normal day. Santa is an extraordinary man who must travel to every house in the world. Surely such a level of exercise is not accounted for in the RDI!


Soul's point


I would now like to make another point about why Santa's girth is necessary.

We all know that Santa lives in Lapland. This is widely percieved to be in the arctic circle. Let's take a look at some of the animals in the arctic circle:


[im]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:juNg7AO_GYj1OM:www.gdargaud.net...[/im]


[im]http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:S4_hjHvnT1yfuM:www.planetwater.ca...[/im]


We clearly see that fat is a natural part of an animal or human's defence against the extreme cold of the far north. Don't forget that Santa also rides a sleigh at high altitude- where its even colder... and its an open sleigh.

Leaving Santa low fat cookies would only succeed in making him emaciated and in danger of hypothermia!


Summary of Soul's major points so far

1. Santa is immortal therefore it doesnt matter what he eats
2. Santa's overweight stature is necessary for his image, his relationship with Mrs Claus and protection against the arctic cold!


reply posted on 15-12-2008 @ 11:28 PM by GAOTU789
“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

Reply 2.

Well it seems we can agree on Santa's immortality. That's good. It also appears that my opponent is coming around to my side with regards to different people have picked up the torch and ran with it.

The fact is that the tradition of Christmas is syncretic; and the tradition of Santa Claus is distinct from St. Nick.


You see it is quite easy to explain these differences over the centuries. Each new man that dons the suit retains some of the nationality of his previous identity.
Meaning that if the new Santa happens to be Finnish or Canadian or Italian; he would hold a small part of that with him.

From my opponents wikipedia link.

One legend associated with Santa says that he lives in the far north, in a land of perpetual snow. The American version of Santa Claus lives at the North Pole, while Father Christmas is said to reside in Lapland.

This differing Nationality would help explain why Santa or Saint Nick or any other alias Santa has gone by has been located at different parts of the Global North.

The mortality ascribed to Santa by a filmmaker does not outweigh centuries of tradition!


I think I've shown that in fact, one version can help explain the other. The tradition fits nicely into Hollywood's version.

My opponent also claims that Santa needs to be so grossly overweight because he lives up North, where it's cold.
I say that is silly. Whether it is the North Pole or Lapland, there is no reason for Santa to be that big because of cold.
My opponent then shows some pictures of seals and polar bears to show large coats of insulating fat that Santa supposedly needs.
Santa is not an animal, he is human. Although admittedly a different sort of human, a human none the less.
My best guess is that Santa works for the Government in a super above top secret black project testing suits that protect against extreme weather.
I mean he travels to the warmer areas of the world too so the suit has to be good in both hot and cold. That suit must be super stretchy too for all the
high fat and high cholesterol drinks and cookies he devours on Christmas eve. Think of the money the government could save by not having to develop Santa's suit to stretch that much.
Would add up over the years.



So let's get to the Reindeer. My opponent brought up the fat that animals need to survive in the extreme climate of the Arctic.
Reindeer are no different. Although I am sure Santa doesn't house them outside, they still have to fly with Santa on his big night, thus experiencing the same conditions as the big guy.



They also have thick fur.We know that if the load is lighter when you are pulling things, it's easier to pull. Simple physics.

Now when the big night comes, the only real weight that the reindeer have to carry is Santa and the sleigh.
everyone knows that Santa's bags of toys is magical and doesn't have any weight. If the bag has just normal, our nine friends could never get off the ground, Rudolph's shiny nose or not.
There is no way that reindeer could sustain that amount of load and still make it around the world in a night.
Seeing as Santa works for the Government, I' am sure that sleigh of his just isn't any old sleigh. It is the most current up to date, composite chassis that is available, making it very light weight and easy on the reindeer.
The Government isn't going to send Santa out to test its supersuits in an old beat up, used hay ride sleigh.
His is state of the art. So to keep the reindeer happy and healthy, not stressed and struggling, Santa needs to be as trim and in shape as possible.
We could possibly even cut down on the reindeer needed to work on Christmas Eve. I am sure the reindeer would not mind.

We may have to change a few Christmas carols if we go that way but all in the name of progress and Santa's health.

Think about how much stress that the ever changing weight of the sleigh must be through the night for our furry buddies.
I couldn't guess how much extra weight Santa must put on in one night because of the cookies and milk he drinks.
Maybe that is why we only have Santa delivering presents once a year and the Easter Bunny picks up the slack in the Spring.
The reindeer can't handle the extra work load thrust upon them by Santa's gorging on super fattening milk and cookies.
Just think about it, if we give Santa healthy drinks and snacks, we could get presents twice a year!!!

Now if that isn't a reason for....

Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol, I don't know what is.


reply posted on 16-12-2008 @ 04:57 AM by 44soulslayer
Rebuttal Section

My opponent states :

It also appears that my opponent is coming around to my side with regards to different people have picked up the torch and ran with it.


In fact I disagree- I stated that :

The fact is that the tradition of Christmas is syncretic; and the tradition of Santa Claus is distinct from St. Nick.
(Emphasis added later on)

While there are numerous traditions surrounding benevolent gift giving folk, such as St Nick, Santa etc… these are all distinct – ie separate and different entities.

Others may exist as parallels but there always was, and always will be only one Santa. And Santa is who we are concerned with here. Not his historic or Middle Eastern counterpart, but the traditional British/ American tradition of Santa Claus.

My opponent also states:

… Seeing as Santa works for the Government …


Im not sure how this conclusion was reached, but I think its highly unlikely that Santa works for the government. If he did, ATS would be abound with speculation about the true nature of Santa’s “naughty list”.

I think Santa is actually a freelance operator, and is in no way connected to the government.

My opponent’s concern for reindeer is admirable, but ultimately moot.
Lets take a look at an action shot!

[im] www.altairmodels.com... [/im]

We can clearly see that using the normal laws of physics, reindeers do not have the capability to fly; the power in their hind legs for a VTOL (vertical take off and landing) capabilities needed for taking off and landing on a roof; and to top it all they are aerodynamically unstable!

Therefore we can safely assume that Santa’s reindeer are magical in nature, and capable of flight via an innate ability. This means that any change in Santa’s weight (+ or – 30kgs) will not have any real effect.

There is even an alternative for skeptics : as my opponent put forth the theory that Santa works for the government, we can safely assume that his sleigh is fitted with the latest antimatter propulsion and antigravity technologies.

Soul’s points

1. Now even though we all know that Santa is real and definitely exists, we must be realistic about the extent of his presence amidst us during the Christmas season.

By this I mean that we all secretly know that the Santa at our local mall isn’t really Santa… he is just a man pretending to be Santa.

So what effect would Santa losing weight have?

Well the economic effects would be devastating. Come holiday time, there would be millions of unemployed, overweight, balding, middle aged men. This would not only cripple the economy, but also destroy what little these guys have going on for them in their lives!

Santa losing weight is hardly what these guys need right now in the midst of the economic depression!

2. My second point is about the distribution of calories in the world. My opponent has forgotten that Santa visits not just American children, but children all around the world. In the tropical countries (where 2/3rds of the world’s population exist), there is severe malnutrition in most cases. In most cases, the families will be too poor to put out cookies and milk for Santa. Thus he needs to eat as much good quality food as he can when in America.

Lets take a look at the evidence:

[im] www.globaleye.org.uk... [/im]

The areas in red are the ones with perpetual hunger. Santa can’t expect to receive much there.

Summary of Soul’s major points thusfar

1. Santa is immortal therefore it doesn’t matter what he eats
2. His overweight stature is necessary for his jolly image; protection from the cold and is vital for the employment prospects of overweight, middle aged men.
3. Santa needs the calories since he has to deliver billions of presents, and is unlikely to be left cookies in third world countries where there is perpetual food shortage.



reply posted on 16-12-2008 @ 11:31 PM by GAOTU789
“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

Reply 3.

My opponent brings up some fine points. What about the places around the world that Santa shouldn't expect to receive anything due to
perpetual hunger. From looking at the map that was posted in my opponents last reply, we can see that most of the populous countries, excluding Russia, are places that Santa could reasonably
expect to get some sort of treat left out for him. It is the polite thing to do. Also, from looking at that map, I think I can kill two birds with one stone. Help Santa with his
weight problem and put a dent in world hunger. If he brings an extra magic bag or two, he could place all the healthy cookies and milk he gets into them and redistribute them to the countries
where he wouldn't normally receive this gift due to the hunger problem. He could still eat what snacks he needed to to get through the Big Night.If they were cookies that were low fat and low cholesterol even better. Santa's weight issue is cured and people who may
not get something to eat on Christmas Day, would at least have something.

Im not sure how this conclusion was reached, but I think its highly unlikely that Santa works for the government. If he did, ATS would be abound with speculation about the true nature of Santa’s “naughty list”.

I think Santa is actually a freelance operator, and is in no way connected to the government.


This is a good point!!! Except that how else could Santa build a huge underground base. That is what the North Pole is. I mean, we have flown over the North Pole and mapped under it and still no sign of
Santa and the Elves. It has to be a Deep UnderGround Base. You never know, this could just be a cover for a new
part of Santa's Workshop. Maybe I have stumbled upon a new conspiracy!

Lets take a look at an action shot!



Wait. That picture only has 6 reindeer!!! Judges don't let this attempt at misdirection fool you.
That is not the real Santa, therefore they can not be the real reindeer.

Therefore we can safely assume that Santa’s reindeer are magical in nature, and capable of flight via an innate ability. This means that any change in Santa’s weight (+ or – 30kgs) will not have any real effect.


I can agree with the first part. The Reindeer are magical. Their actual flying isn't hampered by physics but the medium in which they fly through is. Again, less weight, easier to pull the sleigh.

As far as the economic affect,I know a few gentlemen that are Santa's Helper during the season, most are gainfully employed. The ones that smell like whiskey and snore between photo shoots, I'm sure they can find a job somewhere.



Now lets talk about Mrs. Claus and the stress she must feel every Christmas Eve when her beloved husband takes off at dusk to bring smiles to the children of the world. He have already established that Santa has a rather enormous appetite for sweets. I'm sure she does every thing she can while he is home to keep him eating healthy, especially with the weight he already carries around. The stress upon her must be great.
We have all heard what stress can do to a person.

womenshealth.about.com...

Science is constantly learning about the impact that stress has on your overall health. Stress is or may be a contributing factor in everything from backaches and insomnia to cancer and chronic fatigue syndrome


Now let's look at some causes of that stress.

www.apa.org...

Mature women are reporting dramatic increases in stress associated with health problems affecting their families (up 17 points to 87 percent between April and September)


Now it's obvious that Mrs. Claus would fall into this category. All this potential trouble because we believe we need to feed Santa things that just aren't good for him.
All these problems for all involved could be rectified if only we made sure the milk and cookies we leave out for Santa are low in fat and cholesterol.


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 03:59 AM by 44soulslayer
Thanks for the extension. I managed to grab some wi-fi so lets go!

Rebuttal section

I commend my opponent’s humanitarian concern. He is absolutely correct, and his idea is fantastic. I would fully support such a scheme for Santa to take cookies which he doesn’t really need to eat, and give them to starving children in the third world.

However even here there is ground to suggest that high fat cookies would be preferable. Why?

Well essentially fat is a nutrient, and a great source of energy.

en.wikipedia.org...

We can see that children in third world countries suffer from great malnutrition. They hardly have access to essential fats and oils, which are necessary for proper human health. Children in third world countries therefore need high fat cookies and milk.

I love the new theory that the Svalbard seed vault is a front for Santa’s workshop! I actually think that the vault may be a front for a government-sponsored non-denominational rival to Santa, as directed by the business competition commission!!

I would also like to rebut the point about Mrs Claus’ stress, however I think my point will address this issue:

Soul’s point

We all know that there are 365.25 days in the year = 8765.81 hours. Christmas eve (Santa’s only work day in the entire year) consists of what… 12 hours at most?

So we can see that Santa spends 12 / 8 765.81 = 0.00136895507 % of his time working as a present delivery man where he consumes high fat cookies.
What does Santa do for the rest of the year to gain that much weight?
Santa spends 99.99% of his time at home with Mrs Claus. It is plainly obvious that she is in fact feeding him all manner of unhealthy food at home. The evidence for this is that Santa is perpetually overweight. We never hear reports of Santa being thin at the start of his delivery schedule, and gradually putting on weight over Christmas night as he consumes more and more high fat cookies. This suggests that Mrs Claus is not as concerned about her husband’s weight as my opponent would suggest. Perhaps this is because she knows he is immortal?
Thus the actual effects of the cookies appear to be negligible. Furthermore we can consider that the number of cookies Santa would have to eat over the night would be close to a couple of billion! We therefore have to conclude that Santa’s digestive system is as magical as his present sack.

I mean look at the fat content in the average cookie… its about 8 grams right?
So Santa would be consuming 8 grams * 2 billion = 16 000 000 kilograms
16 million kilograms!! Plainly then, human measures are inadequate for Santa.

Soul’s points thusfar
1. Santa is immortal, therefore it doesn’t matter what he eats
2. His overweight stature is necessary for his jolly image, his relationship, economic reasons and protection from the cold.
3. Santa needs the calories from the cookies since he delivers many presents on the night. Even if he doesn’t use them… he can take and give them to third world children to help them.
4. The mathematics don’t add up for fat content : weight gain. Also Santa spends most of his time at home, so shouldn’t he really lose weight at that point if he were like a normal human?


reply posted on 18-12-2008 @ 08:58 PM by GAOTU789
“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

Closing statement:

First I would like to thank 44 for this fun debate. I enjoyed it. Thanks to my fellow mods for keeping this the best and most informative forum on ATS and thanks to anybody who took the time to read this.

This isn't going to be a long a closing. I just can't find it in me tonight to post something extensive. You might say that I lost a lot of my Christmas spirit today and some faith in the kindness of my fellow humans.


To sum up my argument in a concise manner, I believe I have shown you through out this debate that healthy cookies for Santa is the way to go. It helps cut down on the health risks to the big guy in red. The ingestion of that much saturated fat and artery clogging cholesterol just isn't good for a person, whether you're magical in nature or not. Santa still has a heart and arteries and veins.

Feeing Santa low fat milk and cookies is also good for the reindeer. It lightens the load that they must drag around on Christmas eve and may help Santa get the presents delivered quicker. We feed the reindeer healthy carrots or apples so why not something good for Santa?

I have shown that Santa may even be able to help with the hunger problem the world is facing.(wouldn't that be amazing if it was true.)

I have shown that leaving out heart smart cookies and milk for Santa would alleviate much stress on Mrs. Claus. This would in turn reduce her risk of dangerous health issues which can arise due to stress on an individual.

These are my points on why I believe it is better that...

“Cookies And Milk Left For Santa Should Be Low In Fat And Cholesterol.”

Thank you.


reply posted on 11-1-2009 @ 02:49 PM by MemoryShock
Congratulations to both Fighters! The winner by majority decision is 44soulslayer!

The judges comments:


A very pleasant debate to read! Great job to both debaters.

Santa's Immortality

I was surprised to see Gaotu use Hollywood movies as evidence of Santa's mortal status. 44SS could have easily refuted this but I never saw this done with anything substantial to sway this point to SS44's favor. Fortunately Gaotu makes a great comeback with saint status requiring death as well as does an excellent job showing his point of replacement Santas. Goatu then makes me change my original opinion and I see he did a good job originally basing his premise off of Hollywood and was able to back up the Hollywood depictions with external evidence. +1 Gaotu.

Santa's Changing Body
While SS44 claims Santa's body has not changed and that Santa has always been "rotund," Gaotu did a good job presenting photo evidence of a slender St Nick back in the 4th century and contrasting his weight gain for today. +1 Gaotu.

Santa's Fat Layer For Warmth
Although this came across as an odd argument to use, SS44 comes out ahead due to his use of showing how fat layers are used for warmth and Gaotu's even stranger rebuttal based on admitted speculation and Santa as a government employee/agent. +1 SS44. More on this in a moment.

Reindeer Pulling Santa's Weight
Gaotu tries to claim Santa's excess weight would cause unnecessary burden on the reindeer but SS44 does a good job showing the impossibility that reindeer couldn't fly at all so obviously magic would be involved with Santa's reindeer. +1 SS44.

Santa, the Government Agent
I saw nothing to back this up and SS44 did a good job calling this out as speculation. He also did a good job using Gaotu's government argument against him by suggesting if Santa did work for the government then they could supply some added technology to make up for Santa's weight. +1 SS44.

Lack of Food in 3rd World Countries
Excellent argument by SS44. Very creative. Goatu fires back with a good idea about Santa redistributing the high fat cookies to those countries. This point almost went to Gaotu but SS44 came back with the fact this idea would only cause high fat cookies to be even better than diet conscious snacks. +1 SS44.

Total Point Scoring and General Debate Tone

Gaotu: 2
SS44: 4

Gaotu had the edge early on in the debate and my initial judgment was in his favor but as the debate progressed, SS44 started to come out ahead and really began to shine. Gaotu's position appeared at first glance to be an easy win but SS44 was able to steal the win while having the underdog position to defend. I judge SS44 as the winner. Thanks to both debaters for the fun read!



44soulslayer is clearly the winner. If over a thousand years of obesity has yet to cause Santa a heart attack, a divorce, or even a nasty article about his weight in the tabloids, then why mess with success?

GAOTU's opening made it very clear that his entire case hinged on proving that Santa is immortal, but the only evidence cited in that post was hollywood, and anything but compelling, so he started out in some trouble.

Soulslayer's opening was good, particularly for the novel point about Mrs Claus, though the relationship between fat and jolly was also helpful to his case. The biggest thing he had going for him though was that the burden of proof for Santa's mortality seemed to fall on GAOTU.

The minute GAOTU started his second post with "It's not radical, it's hollywood" (Hollywood of course being a famous bastion of old-fashioned conservatism) I thought it was the beginning of the end. But then he immediately got off that point and posted a picture of a thin, mortal Santa that completely saved his butt.

Soulslayer came back with the fact that Santa and St Nick aren't one in the same. The wikipedia link was uncharacteristically effective for a wiki as evidence, because it included the fact that leaving treats for Santa started as leaving food for Odin's horse, which pretty much locks it down that Santa is distinct from the original inspiring characters.

GAOTU was back to hollywood for his third post, and threw in a rather unconvincing conspiracy angle. This was the first time that Soulslayer kept the lead in the debate all the way through one of GAOTU's rebuttals. He made a respectable effort to reinterpret soulslayer's argument as consistent with and even illustrative of the proposed reality he was borrowing from Hollywood, but Soulslayer's case wasn't weak enough to be parried off like that

Soulslayer was just icing the cake in his third post. He indulged and shot down the government conspiracy point, nailed his opponent on the attempt to reinterpret his argument, and tossed a few more entertaining reasons to side with him on the pile.

The last two rounds were more or less a formality. GAOTU spent a lot of it praising his opponent's points and suggesting giving transfat rather than nutrients to starving kids, and soulslayer shot that one down too.
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