The topic for this debate is “Santa’s Elves Need And Deserve A Labor Union.”

Heike will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
TheWayISeeIt will argue the con position.

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Before we answer the question of whether or not elves need labor unions, I believe we will need to look at the somewhat obscured history of elves and Santa’s elves in particular. There are three versions of this history that seem to be the most common. They are:

Christmas Elves, a Dangerous Hybrid?

As we go on this journey of discovery we will come to see that Santa enlisted elven help and then created a hybridized-form of elf that he now has to keep from breaking loose on the populous as a whole. In this scenario He is the Fat Red Line that stands between us and chaos.


Christmas Elves are Stranded Extraterrestrials

In this history Santa Helpers are from an intergalactic race that may have disappeared from the galaxy, stranded on Earth for millennia but with a concept of time and space completely different. I will argue that by enforcing human Western World labor standards on them we would only confuse them, reminding them of their ‘lost’ status with constant OSHA checks and ‘coffee breaks’. They don’t need a health plan, because they have no health issues, ditto retirement. The clothes they wear are the clothes they made.

And Finally:

Christmas Elves are Finnish and Number Between Six and Thirteen

This is the version with the most documentation, the ones the Finns would like us to believe, and will certainly merit a closer look as we are talking about such a small group of individuals.

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But regardless of which history we choose to believe, I must ultimately point out that as amusing as my opponent’s link to a cartoon world is, let us not confuse it with the real world… the real world where her Commie- Marxists- Socialist Agenda for Santa’s Helpers could represent the end of the world as we know it.

I intend to argue throughout this debate that the delicate balance that is necessary to gift children globally in real time cannot be jeopardized lest the whole fabric of our society is rent.

It is patently clear from the scale, scope and timing of Santa’s annual operation that any changes to the routine of His workshop would cause massive toy manufacturing and delivery disruptions. This would leave us in a world where legions of deserving ‘nice’ children would not receive their promised gifts. In turn the reward system which motivates ‘good behaviour’ would no longer function as children’s social contract with adult society becomes null and void due to the violation.

Ladies and gentlemen in my opponent’s world of unionized elf labor the risk is simply far too great that formerly ‘nice’ children will turn ‘naughty’ due to lack of incentive and that society as we know it will rapidly break down as rampaging hordes of angry, betrayed children take to the streets beginning a life of out-of-control-naughtiness.

It is, and will be, my position throughout this debate that we cannot arbitrarily assign benefits to one small group whether they number six or six thousand if it damages Society as a whole.

Let’s have a look at my opponent’s concerns:

Christmas Elves, a Dangerous Hybrid?

A “dangerous” hybrid? I think not. We don’t know for sure exactly how many elves there are at the North Pole because the census takers refuse to go there (partly because it’s just too darn cold and partly because their office received an anonymous letter threatening to withhold Christmas presents from their children if they did go). However, we can assume that there are a bunch to be making all those toys. How, then, does one man control them all if they’re dangerous? We know that Santa has some magic. Depending on what traditions and legends one considers, Santa may possibly have the ability to fly (or make reindeer fly), the ability to shapeshift (or make himself small enough to get up and down chimneys), the ability to time travel (how else does he cover the whole world in one night?), and the ability to teleport (otherwise how does he get into houses with no chimney?). Although he might possibly also have (or borrow) a bit of elven glamour (think about it - would we ordinarily find an old white-haired overweight dude wearing a bright red suit attractive?), there has never been any indication that Santa has mind control abilities or utilizes hypnosis. Therefore, we must assume that the elves are docile, friendly, and not dangerous at all, or one man wouldn’t be able to manage them all.

Christmas Elves are Stranded Extraterrestrials

My opponent suggests that these ET’s would be confused by “enforcing” our labor standards on them. That could possibly be true, but does them being different from us make it okay to exploit them? Besides, if they’re that different we don’t have to impose our standards on them; we can find out what they like and give it to them, or at least try to. Surely they aren’t so different that they think working all year to produce toys for human children is “fun.” Besides, I find this theory highly unlikely. If Santa’s elves are ET’s and just “happened” to land on Earth near the North Pole and get stranded, what was Santa doing up there in the first place? He was just chillin’ and then these ET’s came along and gave him the idea to start doing the Christmas thing? Unlikely.

It’s far more probable that, as St. Nick expanded his gift-giving from local children to the whole world, the presence of elves and their potential as a workforce which could survive in the cold and remoteness of the North Pole were factored into the plan. In other words, the elves were already around and their abilities were known, and this knowledge is part of what made the man who became Santa Claus decide to set up his workshop at the North Pole.

Christmas Elves are Finnish and Number Between Six and Thirteen

Really? I find this assertion, despite my opponent’s claims of documentation, to be the most unbelievable of all. The world population of human beings is around 6 billion. Assuming that around 1/3 of those are children (a conservative estimate; some sources put it as high as 45%), that’s around 2 billion kids on the planet. Doing the math, that means that 13 elves working 60 hour weeks would have to make around 822 toys per minute each, or nearly 14 toys per second, in order to provide just ONE toy for each of the world’s children. Even with magic and working 50% more hours a week than most of us do, 52 weeks a year with no vacations or holidays, this seems nearly impossible. I’m sorry, my dear opponent, but there have to be more than 13 elves.

society as we know it will rapidly break down as rampaging hordes of angry, betrayed children take to the streets beginning a life of out-of-control-naughtiness.

Are you scared? My opponent hopes so, because surely this is scare tactics and fear mongering of the basest kind. Try telling your kids in January that they need to be good or Santa won’t bring them any presents at Christmas and see how far it gets you. As we all know, children don’t have much ability to sacrifice for long-term gratification - that comes with maturity. The “Santa Claus is coming, better be good” contract is only valid from sometime in November (depending on the age of the child, for some it may be later than that) through December 25th about an hour after the presents have been opened. A few weeks at most, and hardly enough time to disrupt the fabric of society. If there is an adjustment period, surely the same rewards and consequences which are utilized by parents the rest of the year can be applied during those few weeks.

It is, and will be, my position throughout this debate that we cannot arbitrarily assign benefits to one small group whether they number six or six thousand if it damages Society as a whole.

My dear TWISI, surely you have this bass ackwards. How can we NOT provide equitable compensation and benefits to any group of sentient beings and call ourselves a modern, civilized society? Did not Western civilization dispense with slavery and inequality decades ago? Have we not decided that discrimination against any group is unethical, immoral, and just plain indecent? The economy of the American states who were once part of the Confederacy has recovered from the abolishment of slavery, and the North Pole will recover from any economic upset caused by treating the elves fairly and humanely.

On to other considerations...

Just how DOES one man control all those elves? I can see only three possibilities:
1) They do what they do because they WANT to - meaning they love our kids.
2) They’re a few cards short of a full deck (in other words, they aren’t very bright).
3) They are under duress.

Scenario One: If an entire group, perhaps an entire species of sentient beings are sacrificing the lives they could otherwise have for the benefit of humanity’s children, how can we NOT reward them? Yes, we understand sacrifice, heroism, and martyrdom, but come on - even Mother Teresa got props. If they really are volunteers, we owe it to them to find out and reward them appropriately for their generations of hard work and kindness for the love of our children.

On the other hand, if they are volunteers, just think about what that is doing to society as a whole. Surely if they were being compensated instead of working for free, they could be contributing to a capitalist economy and paying taxes. In particular, America’s economy depends greatly on Christmas; it’s likely that unionizing the elves and adopting the North Pole as a territory of the U. S. (like Guam or the U. S. Virgin Islands) might seriously help the U. S. economy.

Scenario Two: If Santa’s elves are not the brightest stars in the terrestrial skies, or perhaps just the bottom few rungs of the elvish ladder, exploiting them is even more reprehensible. As we demonstrate daily by our treatment of the “mentally challenged” humans among us, we KNOW that those who are not capable of understanding the world well enough to take and defend their place in it must have it given to them. This should be no less true for mentally challenged elves than it is for mentally challenged humans. If they aren’t able to comprehend their situation and demand better treatment, we must provide it to them regardless. If you think that the next generation will inevitably have anger and resentment towards the current generation as they grow up, just imagine their anger if they discover that we’ve deliberately exploited an entire species because they aren’t as intelligent as most of us. Talk about angry children!!

Scenario Three: Since we’ve already established that Santa, in all probability, doesn’t have any mind control magic, if the elves are being coerced into working for Santa, he is probably using mind control technology acquired from U. S. Black Ops (which, of course, we here at ATS know exists). If so, this would be another outrage perpetrated by covert operations of one of the alphabet soup agencies sponsored by the U. S. Government, and certainly something we must put a stop to before the technology is turned on us. It’s only one small step from using it on elves to using it on humans; they may in fact be conducting long-term testing on the elves preparatory to using it on you and I! In any case, we owe it to the elves - and to our own peace of mind - to find out what’s going on up there and correct any violations of elf freedom and free will that may be occurring. Sending some representatives up there and attempting to organize a labor union would would be a good way of assessing the situation and providing possible solutions.

No matter what the situation is at the North Pole, introducing Santa’s little helpers to the concept of a union and helping them organize one would be a step forward, both for them and for us, and I can’t imagine anything my opponent could come up with that could negate this. Nevertheless, I’ll let her have a go at it - unlike the situation at the North Pole, it’s only fair.

My opponent has ended her last post with the suggestion that I have “nefarious intent” and that my concerns are less than humanitarian (elfitarian?). I remind you, however, that my opening was full of concern for the elves and and spoke repeatedly of a desire to help them and better their lives. It is my opponent, not I, who has dragged us off into this dark fantasy land of zombie Santas and diabolical elves. I, of course, had no choice but to counter lest you think that I was unable to respond and be left with the impression that she must be right.

powerful, magical, immortal beings

While elves most probably have some magical abilities, or some magic in their nature, I do not - and have not - agreed that they are powerful or immortal. It’s somewhat likely that they have a longer lifespan than humans, but that doesn’t make them immortal. Nor do they appear to be powerful. I remind you of the webcam in my opening. Did they LOOK powerful to you when they were running from polar bears and snowmen and being abducted by aliens? (Incidentally, the fact that they were being abducted by aliens would seem to indicate that they are NOT, in fact, ET’s themselves.)

The one thing we do seem to reliably know about Santa’s elves is that they are small. When not being called elves, they are invariably referred to as Santa’s little helpers. Most depictions of them also indicate that they are very short, albeit correctly proportioned. Despite my efforts to deal with my opponent’s characterization of elves as powerful and dangerous, I remain convinced that they are friendly, meek, and good-hearted little people.

Although we apparently know very little about the true nature of elves, we know plenty about human nature. And Santa is undeniably human. He may have somehow acquired an unnaturally long lifespan during the transition from Bishop Nicholas to Santa Claus, or it may be that Santa Claus is, in fact, a hereditary title, and the “Santa Claus” we know is a descendant of the original Nicholas. Regardless, he is human, and as I said we know human nature, which is to take advantage of the weak, vulnerable, meek, and the kind-hearted.

Let’s think about this. While the magical nature of elves (or simple evolutionary adaptation) may render them less vulnerable to the cold, there still isn’t much in the way of food available at the North Pole. You can’t grow crops in ice! They may fish or hunt seals, but it’s likely that Santa imports most of their food. So, there they are, dependent on Santa for food and shelter, trapped at the North Pole.

Perhaps they think of leaving, but where could they go? They have no birth certificates, no passports, no citizenship. Without this modern paperwork proving their identities, they have nowhere to go. They are imprisoned at the North Pole as effectively as ever criminals were imprisoned on Alcatraz, and if they stay at the North Pole they’d best work for “the Man” - Santa Claus.

He has them by the short hairs, my friends, and they know it.

as we know those do not come from Santa’s workshop.

We do? Another unproven assumption. First of all, as my opponent has previously pointed out herself, Santa Claus HIDES. He avoids being seen. Why this is we don’t exactly know, but obviously he does not want us to have proof of his existence. Billions of toys appearing under Christmas trees each year marked “Made in the North Pole”, or with no markings at all, would certainly prove his existence - and that of his elf-filled workshop. Santa, therefore, cleverly instructs his elves to put misleading labels on all the toys, making it appear that they come from Mattel or Hasbro or Lego instead of his workshop.

And there is yet another reason for this necessary deception - today’s children, materialistically oriented and status conscious, would be quick to cry “this isn’t a real Barbie, it doesn’t say Mattel. Santa’s brought me a cheap fake!” Certainly you can see the need to prevent such drama.

We can not, therefore, reasonably conclude that malfunctioning toys have not come from Santa’s workshop, so they may, indeed, be evidence of the elves’ discontent.

all evidence points to them WANTING to be toymakers

Not quite. As I’ve pointed out above, they’re trapped at the North Pole and have nowhere to go. And since the only industry available at the North Pole is making toys (or taking care of reindeer perhaps), they have no choice but to become toymakers.

Santa’s elves delight in dance. ... they are clearly happy while they are doing it.

My dearest opponent, you are wasting your word count. Our readers and judges are much too intelligent to fall for this obvious fallacy. People, sentient, self-aware beings capable of creativity, art, and making toys will snatch what happiness they can no matter their circumstances. Did not the African slaves in America have celebrations, and dance, and make music? And yet, surely no one here would consider that an indication that they were “happy” with their lot and did not need to be freed from their slavery.

My opponent insists on presuming that the Elves must be asked by human representatives what it is they need and I find that this whole line of ‘reasoning’ is not only racist and colonial in its mentality, but suspect.

As I’ve said, I find it highly likely that Santa Claus, being human, takes advantage of the fact that his meek, small, and good-natured “helpers” have nowhere to go and are dependent on him for everything - food, shelter, and their very lives. They have no recourse and no choices, except to work for “the man” or die. Obviously it will require outside intervention to change this despicable status quo which has existed for hundreds of years. These poor elves, who have for generations brought joy and happiness to human children, deserve choices, they deserve to be able to decide their own fate and future, not have it forced upon them by the “jolly” fat man who controls them in a manner similar to the virtual enslavement endured by miners who “owed their soul to the company store.”

there are no reindeer in the North Pole

Oh, my goodness! Oh, my dear!
You have missed the obvious here!
To understand this you must try
Silly TWISI, reindeer fly!

Or, to be a bit more pedantic, neither lions, tigers, cockatoos, macaws, kangaroos, ostriches, etc. etc. are indigenous to North America, and yet we have substantial populations of all the above in America.

Santa’s workshop is indubitably at the North Pole. A google search turns up 572,000 hits for “North Pole Workshop,” all of which refer to Santa’s village and workshop at the North Pole.

Elves have been depicted as male or female, tiny or dwarf-like, youthful and immortal with magical powers. .. They are youthful but immortal and have magical powers that can control what you see and experience.

Yes, I looked up your source and it’s ancient history. Here’s another passage from your own source:

Elves ... assumed a new significance in the mid-1800's ...the elves' true role in modern life: fairies that are somewhat mischievous, but the true friends and helpers of Father Christmas... the elves help Santa design and make the wonderful toys and gifts he brings to children ... take care of Santa's reindeer and keep his sleigh in good condition

So.. since the mid 1800’s .. over 150 years ago .. we’ve had a much better understanding of elves, or perhaps they’ve changed some over 150 years. Certainly humans have!

As regards the information about the number of elves, your source admits that:

Some people think that Santa employs six elves, while others think that he has nine elf assistants. Others think that there are as many as 13 elves living with Santa to help him

Did you catch that? Some people think, and there is no consensus regarding the number. Perhaps this refers to the original family of elves who went to the North Pole with Santa in the mid 1800’s; but since that original family had 6, 9, or 13 children (depending on whose “thinking” you agree with), it would appear that elves are quite prolific and have certainly managed to increase their numbers in the last 150 years. A current census could be quite helpful and illuminating, but .. we don’t have one. So, you see, we really have no idea how many elves are currently living and working at Santa’s Village at the North Pole.

it is entirely possible that Santa is under the mind control of the elves.

Oh, now. Let’s not throw ALL logic and reason out the window. St. Nicholas - Santa Claus - as a charitable, generous human who loves children and wants to make sure that all children have toys at Christmas makes sense. On the other hand, the idea that a bunch of mischievous, powerful, immortal, and magical beings (who are, in other parts of my opponent’s favorite site, characterized as pranksters who cause nightmares, tangle peoples’ hair while they are sleeping, sour milk, and steal sausages) would not only voluntarily spend all of their own time making toys for human children, but also abduct and enslave a human couple (Santa and Mrs. Claus) for that purpose, is ludicrous. In other legends and stories elves are considered to be aloof and unemotional, meddling in the affairs of humans only when it benefits them or when they feel they must. What, then, could possibly be the purpose behind all the toy making and toy giving? Such creatures could care less whether human children are happy - or well-behaved.

I say to you, therefore, that my opponent’s entire premise is preposterous. There must be more than 13 elves, and they can’t be the powerful creatures my opponent supposes them to be or they wouldn’t spend their lives making playthings for the children of humans.

A far more likely scenario is that an original family of 6, 9, or 13 (depending on who you believe) elves volunteered to go with St. Nick to the North Pole and set up the village, workshop, and reindeer barns and paddocks, but over the last 150 years their children, and their children’s children, have had little choice but to remain at the North Pole and either make toys or tend reindeer.

This, my friends, is slavery of the worst kind - slavery induced by ignorance, as these poor elves know no other life but what they have and most likely have no idea that their lives could be any different, or better. For over a century they have slaved, year in and year out, for the benefit of OUR children but not their own. Deny this ignorance! Freedom for the elves!

At long last, judgment is in. Heike wins this by majority decision.

The judges comments:

Judgment; Heike wins the debate.

Reasoning;

Opening; Heike began by making some rather damning assertions about the conditions under which Santa's elves toil, which were neatly summarized at the end. To corroborate, video evidence taken by an elf-cam was supplied. Although this evidence did bolster the claims of unsafe working conditions, it seemed to contradict some of the claims. There were various clear instances of elves taking breaks. Despite the evidence that they are allowed breaks, the unsafe working conditions are clearly a problem that even Santa recognizes as indicated by the "0 days accident free" sign above the window.

TheWayISeeIt begins by presenting three alternate histories of the elves. One of the possible histories presents an immediate problem to TWISI's first main objection to the evidence presented by Heike, the objection that,

I must ultimately point out that as amusing as my opponent’s link to a cartoon world is, let us not confuse it with the real world…

However, TWISI also proposes that the elves may be

stranded on Earth for millennia but with a concept of time and space completely different.

This could indicate that elves are from a different dimension than us, and that could be the 2cnd dimension, hence their oddly flat appearance on the elfcam. We will have to see how Heike handles these objections.

As a judge however, I have to say that TWISI's own evidence negates the objection to the video evidence and as such I will consider it un-refuted at this point.

TWISI also argues that even if elves were being mistreated that the consequences to society are so great as to be worth the cost.

Round one:

Heike begins by arguing against the claims TWISI has made regarding the elves origin. Heike does make a good argument that the elves cannot be so inherently dangerous that Santa MUST keep them locked up. (And video evidence seems to corroborate this) Although Heike does not at this point defend the video information as valid, Heike does bring up a point that simply being different does not necessarily give one the right to exploit them.

Heike also fails to pick up on a very promising line of defense for the elves, and that is that if the elves were indeed Finnish as one of TWISI's elf origin claims suggests, that those elves would then seem to fall under Finnish law. Heike could have then used Finnish labor standards to support their case for better working conditions for the elves.

Despite this missed opportunity, Heike does handily refute TWISI's claim that improved conditions for the elves would cause the breakdown of our society, and ends with some support for their argument that difference does not give us free reign to exploit.

TWISI in this round is falling into a trap many very good debaters find themselves in. Trying to cover all possible objections and bringing in too many defenses for their case. This can only be successful IF you are certain that one defense you bring in is not in direct contradiction with another. Unfortunately for TWISI, casting the net too widely is dragging in contradiction.

TWISI brings in a source, uncyclopedia.wikia.com... that seems to support a history of brutal enslavement of the elven by humans. And, the fact that the elves revolted show that they are not willing participants in Santa's plan, but rather are compelled to work against their will.

TWISI emphasizes that they do not wish us to consider this the best source, but then fails to provide a link to a source they find more credible. If it doesnt help your case, leave it out. In this case, it has been introduced, and not refuted by TWISI with the alleged more credible source, and it is actually quite damning.

TWISI does make some fair points by stating that Heike has not shown the ET origin theory untrue, but Heike's argument is not that it is ok to exploit the elves if they are alien, and so failing to refute that point is not damaging to Heike's case. So far, TWISI is doing more damage to their own case than to Heike's.

Round 2:

In this round no real ground was gained by Heike.

Although Heike does make an effort to counter the claims made by TWISI, there is no real solid case building done in this round.

TWISI does effectively counter a point made by Heike that not everyone considers children harmless. (This judge among them!) But fails to see how their own evidence is contradicting the claim that the elves are doing what they do of their own volition.

TWISI also brings in more photo's of elves apparently enjoying themselves as proof that they are not being enslaved. However, many slaves throughout history have danced and sung, and otherwise tried themselves to make their lot more bearable. We will have to see if Heike picks up on this.

Round 3;

Heike does indeed pick up on this.


Did not the African slaves in America have celebrations, and dance, and make music? And yet, surely no one here would consider that an indication that they were “happy” with their lot and did not need to be freed from their slavery.


Heike makes a very good appeal in this round. They address points of contention brought up by TWISI logically, and eloquently. It was a good wrap up of the argument to set the stage for closing.

TWISI seems to finally be taking a stand as to the origin of the elves. I am not sure that their origin was the best route to take in building their case, but it is the one consistent theme in their argument. Unfortunately for TWISI, this decision to choose a story and stick with it is coming awfully late in the game, and is already undermined by their own earlier suppositions.

TWISI does bring up a very interesting possibility to counter Heike's claim that Santa being human is subject to human nature and humans have a propensity to exploit the weak. TWISI introduces the possibility that Santa, not the elves may be the victims here. Again, this is late in the game, perhaps too late, but would have been a very good position to argue from had they begun this line from the start and been consistent.

Closing;

Heike doesnt really do much to refute TWISI's assertion that it could be the elves that enslave Santa, and not vice versa. (ie; that Santa has access to a vehicle at least once a year and returns willingly)

TWISI, on the other hand brings up good points that we cannot assume that the elves give toys to good children to make them happy. We cannot attribute human motivation to the elves without knowing more about them.

Summary:

Both fighters did an excellent job at different places in the debate. TWISI really came on strong at the end, but could not undo the damage to their argument caused by their initial bringing in of contradictory evidence. While Heike did lose a little focus at the end, and failed to really address TWISI's very valid points, Heike over all made a very consistent well reasoned appeal for the elves. Unfortunately for TWISI, a strong ending in this case was not supported through the argument as a whole, and some of their own introductions into evidence contradict the conclusion.

This has got to be one of the funniest debates I've read in awhile.

But, alas, there can only be one victor, and in my humble opinion this is Heike.

Heike started off with a strong argument and stuck with her points throughout the course of the debate. She dealt deftly with TWISI's points and came out on top.

TWISI spread herself out a little to thin with various lores concerning this mysterious group of creatures. In the end, she could not support any single theory and spent more time defending her stance than playing offense.

Heike's stance that the elves present predicament was analogous to slavery, while calling upon the good works of Mother Theresa, and throwing in a little black ops conspiracy was simply genius.
All in all, this proved to be a most delightful debate.

Congratulations, Heike! I wish I could say your victory was a surprise, but I was sure I had a defeat coming.

Thank you to the judges for taking the time to read it, I did indeed spread myself too thin and went willy-nillying around as I had pretty much hung myself with my Opening (that's what I get for trying to work in humour and conspiracy theories).

A great time was had though, and for that I thank Heike!

Thank you, Judges. Thanks TWISI! Thank you, readers, and thanks Swee .. uh, Shock I mean, for setting it up.

It was supposed to be fun and I hope it was fun. I tried to remember that it was all in fun and keep it light and humorous, but I think my argumentative nature got the best of me - and apparently got the best of TWISI too!.

Just kidding.

Actually, TWISI, I have to say that I was really suprised and impressed. When we first started I remember thinking "Now, how is anyone going to argue AGAINST fair labor practices for the elves?" But you came up with not one valid argument, but a bunch of them! Good job!