Holiday Skirmish: Heike vs TheWayISeeIt: Elven Slavery?

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posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 10:49 AM
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The topic for this debate is “Santa’s Elves Need And Deserve A Labor Union.”

Heike will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
TheWayISeeIt will argue the con position.

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posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 04:09 PM
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Hello Everyone, and Merry Christmas. I must state my thank yous, which go out to MemoryShock for setting this up, TheWayISeeIt for agreeing to debate me, and all of you for reading and/or judging. I am honored to be able to speak in this debate on behalf of the elves.

"Santa's Elves Need and Deserve a Labor Union"

They most certainly do!! As research for this debate, I've been watching the live ElfCam ( www.santas-workshop.org... ) for several hours, and I'm really shocked. Conditions in the workshop are much worse than I originally imagined. So far I've seen polar bear attacks, snowman attacks, an abduction of an elf by UFO, and several unfortunate accidents. Furthermore, the sign on the wall reads "0 days without an accident." Apparently they aren't even getting OSHA inspections up there, much less safety training or basic security. I'm betting they probably don't get workmen's comp, either.

I'm sure that a lot of us can complain about our jobs and our working conditions (for example, my husband works for Walmart and they don't have a labor union, either). However, I doubt that any of us have it quite as bad as Santa's elves. They have to live at the North Pole, which is basically Winter all year and as cold as .. umm .. ice, plus there are no activities to speak of. When was the last time you heard about any good concerts at the North Pole? No, I didn't think so.

So it's a lousy place to live and they have to stay there all year. Presumably they get NO vacations - when was the last time you heard about anyone seeing an elf on vacation, hmm? - and possibly no holidays. Their pay scale must be pretty bad, since their clothes are always the same and don't ever seem to be in style.

It would also seem that they are receiving no benefits, as I can't find reference to any such thing anywhere. No elf retirement funds. No elf credit union. No elf insurance. (I've called most of the major insurance companies and none of them have any policies on elves.)

So far we have:


  • Unsafe working conditions
  • Substandard Living Conditions
  • Virtual Imprisonment (isolated location w/lack of public transporation)
  • Low wages
  • No vacations / holidays
  • Lack of benefits


Who else has it this bad? What other group of workers would put up with such terrible treatment from the "jolly" old guy who is supposedly the spirit of Christmas and brings joy to all the children each year?

No, it is time and past time that elves received fair and equal treatment! They should have a union to represent them, and at the very least begin to receive job safety, a reasonable minimum wage, health insurance, paid holidays, vacation time, and possibly a retirement plan.



posted on Dec, 14 2008 @ 10:40 AM
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Before we answer the question of whether or not elves need labor unions, I believe we will need to look at the somewhat obscured history of elves and Santa’s elves in particular. There are three versions of this history that seem to be the most common. They are:

Christmas Elves, a Dangerous Hybrid?

As we go on this journey of discovery we will come to see that Santa enlisted elven help and then created a hybridized-form of elf that he now has to keep from breaking loose on the populous as a whole. In this scenario He is the Fat Red Line that stands between us and chaos.


Christmas Elves are Stranded Extraterrestrials

In this history Santa Helpers are from an intergalactic race that may have disappeared from the galaxy, stranded on Earth for millennia but with a concept of time and space completely different. I will argue that by enforcing human Western World labor standards on them we would only confuse them, reminding them of their ‘lost’ status with constant OSHA checks and ‘coffee breaks’. They don’t need a health plan, because they have no health issues, ditto retirement. The clothes they wear are the clothes they made.

And Finally:

Christmas Elves are Finnish and Number Between Six and Thirteen

This is the version with the most documentation, the ones the Finns would like us to believe, and will certainly merit a closer look as we are talking about such a small group of individuals.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But regardless of which history we choose to believe, I must ultimately point out that as amusing as my opponent’s link to a cartoon world is, let us not confuse it with the real world… the real world where her Commie- Marxists- Socialist Agenda for Santa’s Helpers could represent the end of the world as we know it.

I intend to argue throughout this debate that the delicate balance that is necessary to gift children globally in real time cannot be jeopardized lest the whole fabric of our society is rent.

It is patently clear from the scale, scope and timing of Santa’s annual operation that any changes to the routine of His workshop would cause massive toy manufacturing and delivery disruptions. This would leave us in a world where legions of deserving ‘nice’ children would not receive their promised gifts. In turn the reward system which motivates ‘good behaviour’ would no longer function as children’s social contract with adult society becomes null and void due to the violation.

Ladies and gentlemen in my opponent’s world of unionized elf labor the risk is simply far too great that formerly ‘nice’ children will turn ‘naughty’ due to lack of incentive and that society as we know it will rapidly break down as rampaging hordes of angry, betrayed children take to the streets beginning a life of out-of-control-naughtiness.

It is, and will be, my position throughout this debate that we cannot arbitrarily assign benefits to one small group whether they number six or six thousand if it damages Society as a whole.



posted on Dec, 14 2008 @ 09:16 PM
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Let’s have a look at my opponent’s concerns:


Christmas Elves, a Dangerous Hybrid?


A “dangerous” hybrid? I think not. We don’t know for sure exactly how many elves there are at the North Pole because the census takers refuse to go there (partly because it’s just too darn cold and partly because their office received an anonymous letter threatening to withhold Christmas presents from their children if they did go). However, we can assume that there are a bunch to be making all those toys. How, then, does one man control them all if they’re dangerous? We know that Santa has some magic. Depending on what traditions and legends one considers, Santa may possibly have the ability to fly (or make reindeer fly), the ability to shapeshift (or make himself small enough to get up and down chimneys), the ability to time travel (how else does he cover the whole world in one night?), and the ability to teleport (otherwise how does he get into houses with no chimney?). Although he might possibly also have (or borrow) a bit of elven glamour (think about it - would we ordinarily find an old white-haired overweight dude wearing a bright red suit attractive?), there has never been any indication that Santa has mind control abilities or utilizes hypnosis. Therefore, we must assume that the elves are docile, friendly, and not dangerous at all, or one man wouldn’t be able to manage them all.


Christmas Elves are Stranded Extraterrestrials


My opponent suggests that these ET’s would be confused by “enforcing” our labor standards on them. That could possibly be true, but does them being different from us make it okay to exploit them? Besides, if they’re that different we don’t have to impose our standards on them; we can find out what they like and give it to them, or at least try to. Surely they aren’t so different that they think working all year to produce toys for human children is “fun.” Besides, I find this theory highly unlikely. If Santa’s elves are ET’s and just “happened” to land on Earth near the North Pole and get stranded, what was Santa doing up there in the first place? He was just chillin’ and then these ET’s came along and gave him the idea to start doing the Christmas thing? Unlikely.

It’s far more probable that, as St. Nick expanded his gift-giving from local children to the whole world, the presence of elves and their potential as a workforce which could survive in the cold and remoteness of the North Pole were factored into the plan. In other words, the elves were already around and their abilities were known, and this knowledge is part of what made the man who became Santa Claus decide to set up his workshop at the North Pole.


Christmas Elves are Finnish and Number Between Six and Thirteen


Really? I find this assertion, despite my opponent’s claims of documentation, to be the most unbelievable of all. The world population of human beings is around 6 billion. Assuming that around 1/3 of those are children (a conservative estimate; some sources put it as high as 45%), that’s around 2 billion kids on the planet. Doing the math, that means that 13 elves working 60 hour weeks would have to make around 822 toys per minute each, or nearly 14 toys per second, in order to provide just ONE toy for each of the world’s children. Even with magic and working 50% more hours a week than most of us do, 52 weeks a year with no vacations or holidays, this seems nearly impossible. I’m sorry, my dear opponent, but there have to be more than 13 elves.


society as we know it will rapidly break down as rampaging hordes of angry, betrayed children take to the streets beginning a life of out-of-control-naughtiness.


Are you scared? My opponent hopes so, because surely this is scare tactics and fear mongering of the basest kind. Try telling your kids in January that they need to be good or Santa won’t bring them any presents at Christmas and see how far it gets you. As we all know, children don’t have much ability to sacrifice for long-term gratification - that comes with maturity. The “Santa Claus is coming, better be good” contract is only valid from sometime in November (depending on the age of the child, for some it may be later than that) through December 25th about an hour after the presents have been opened. A few weeks at most, and hardly enough time to disrupt the fabric of society. If there is an adjustment period, surely the same rewards and consequences which are utilized by parents the rest of the year can be applied during those few weeks.


It is, and will be, my position throughout this debate that we cannot arbitrarily assign benefits to one small group whether they number six or six thousand if it damages Society as a whole.


My dear TWISI, surely you have this bass ackwards. How can we NOT provide equitable compensation and benefits to any group of sentient beings and call ourselves a modern, civilized society? Did not Western civilization dispense with slavery and inequality decades ago? Have we not decided that discrimination against any group is unethical, immoral, and just plain indecent? The economy of the American states who were once part of the Confederacy has recovered from the abolishment of slavery, and the North Pole will recover from any economic upset caused by treating the elves fairly and humanely.

On to other considerations...

Just how DOES one man control all those elves? I can see only three possibilities:
1) They do what they do because they WANT to - meaning they love our kids.
2) They’re a few cards short of a full deck (in other words, they aren’t very bright).
3) They are under duress.

Scenario One: If an entire group, perhaps an entire species of sentient beings are sacrificing the lives they could otherwise have for the benefit of humanity’s children, how can we NOT reward them? Yes, we understand sacrifice, heroism, and martyrdom, but come on - even Mother Teresa got props. If they really are volunteers, we owe it to them to find out and reward them appropriately for their generations of hard work and kindness for the love of our children.

On the other hand, if they are volunteers, just think about what that is doing to society as a whole. Surely if they were being compensated instead of working for free, they could be contributing to a capitalist economy and paying taxes. In particular, America’s economy depends greatly on Christmas; it’s likely that unionizing the elves and adopting the North Pole as a territory of the U. S. (like Guam or the U. S. Virgin Islands) might seriously help the U. S. economy.

Scenario Two: If Santa’s elves are not the brightest stars in the terrestrial skies, or perhaps just the bottom few rungs of the elvish ladder, exploiting them is even more reprehensible. As we demonstrate daily by our treatment of the “mentally challenged” humans among us, we KNOW that those who are not capable of understanding the world well enough to take and defend their place in it must have it given to them. This should be no less true for mentally challenged elves than it is for mentally challenged humans. If they aren’t able to comprehend their situation and demand better treatment, we must provide it to them regardless. If you think that the next generation will inevitably have anger and resentment towards the current generation as they grow up, just imagine their anger if they discover that we’ve deliberately exploited an entire species because they aren’t as intelligent as most of us. Talk about angry children!!

Scenario Three: Since we’ve already established that Santa, in all probability, doesn’t have any mind control magic, if the elves are being coerced into working for Santa, he is probably using mind control technology acquired from U. S. Black Ops (which, of course, we here at ATS know exists). If so, this would be another outrage perpetrated by covert operations of one of the alphabet soup agencies sponsored by the U. S. Government, and certainly something we must put a stop to before the technology is turned on us. It’s only one small step from using it on elves to using it on humans; they may in fact be conducting long-term testing on the elves preparatory to using it on you and I! In any case, we owe it to the elves - and to our own peace of mind - to find out what’s going on up there and correct any violations of elf freedom and free will that may be occurring. Sending some representatives up there and attempting to organize a labor union would would be a good way of assessing the situation and providing possible solutions.

No matter what the situation is at the North Pole, introducing Santa’s little helpers to the concept of a union and helping them organize one would be a step forward, both for them and for us, and I can’t imagine anything my opponent could come up with that could negate this. Nevertheless, I’ll let her have a go at it - unlike the situation at the North Pole, it’s only fair.



posted on Dec, 20 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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FIRST RESPONSE

I would like to address my opponent’s off-topic comment, which she so neatly tried to tie to the larger question of the potential size of Santa’s help-meet workforce, an issue we will revisit throughout this debate.



there has never been any indication that Santa has mind control abilities or utilizes hypnosis. Therefore, we must assume that the elves are docile, friendly, and not dangerous at all, or one man wouldn’t be able to manage them all.


That’s quite a bit of assumption… on a number of accounts as we will soon see.

If managing to enter, leave gifts and exit 90% (ceding 10% for naughtiness) of the homes on Earth -- and keeping in mind that most children stay awake at least once in their lives to get a glimpse of this gift giving ‘magician’ -- and never be seen is not indicative of mind control and management abilities, I would like to know what is.

As to my opponents presumptive stance of Santa’s elves “docile, friendly and not dangerous nature”, while the accounts of their origin and their innate characteristics differ somewhat there is a common theme that runs throughout all of them; namely that they are believed to be empowered and potentially dangerous, so much so that modern Scandinavians take great care not to disturb them.



For example, just outside of Reykjavik, Iceland, a soccer game was called to a halt when a misled ball rolled off the beaten path, and stopped right next to a sign that marked the home of 3 elves believed to dwell near the stones where the ball was resting. Instead of reclaiming the ball, the soccer player opted to leave it there in order to avoid disturbing the elves.

Wiki 1


SANTA’S ELVES AS ZOMBIE HYBRIDS

JRR Tolkien, considered the foremost researcher in the field of elves in general, describes the elven and their dispositions as:


The Elves … preoccupy themselves with various things, such as smithwork, sculpture, music and other arts, and of course, what to eat.

Wiki Tolkien 1

Which I will also point out genetically predisposes them to toy making, marking them as prime targets for a hypothetically insidious Santa Klaus and his power-hungry and egotistical ambitions. And while my opponent would like to entirely ‘pssshaw!’ the possibility of the hybridized Santa’s Helpers, let us take a moment to consider one of the possible histories that I referenced in my opening.

I include this account, not because I find it the most credible, far from it, but to demonstrate that in all the accounts of Santa’s Elves we will see a theme which is that they are far from disempowered and do have the capacity to not only make mischief but defend themselves.



Santa also took advantage of his burgeoning knowledge in the field of necromancy to enlarge his workforce with millions of elvish zombies, who serve him in an utterly faithful manner ...

3rd Source 1

Which in turn, by this same account, lead to:



Unfortunately, before Santaschen had enough Elves to being running his enterprise, they rebelled against his tyrannic rule and murdered him. The Elves, however, did not realize they had a traitor among their number. Knecht Krampus Ruprecht... who lovingly revived his master's body through the use of advanced technology and the secret writings of the Necronomicon.


Now, before my opponent claims victory using other parts of this account, allow me to reiterate that I do not find this the most credible history for Santa’s elves as there is far more documentation that shows a specific pecking order, names and numbers of elves -- nevertheless I include it because it further demonstrates that Santa’s helpers are far from powerless creatures with no control over their destiny seeing as how, even in this most unlikely version of their history, they managed to murder Santa and then, in this instance misguidedly, bring him back to life.

ELVEN MORTALITY AND THEIR MAGICAL ABILITIES

Now let us address what I believe we can all surely agree on which is that elves are magical creatures who live extraordinarily long lives with most informed accounts going so far as to designate them as immortal.

Per J.R.R. Tolkien:



Elves are naturally immortal, and remain unwearied with age. In addition to their immortality, Elves can recover from wounds which would normally kill a mortal Man.


Wiki Tolkien 2

From this we can also easily surmise that labor which would normally kill a man would also not apply to the Elfish. Outside of the fanciful account I included above, we have no reason to believe that the Santa’s elves are in any way unhappy with their lot as their magical abilities would certainly allow them to forge their own destinies if they were.

LITTLE GREEN MEN OR LITTLE MEN IN GREEN?

The theories that Elves and Fairies are actually sightings of extraterrestrials are common and too many to list in this post. My opponent’s opposition to this concept by dismissing it as unlikely that the ET’s would be hanging around in the North Pole is in no way addressed with any kind of logic with the statement below:



In other words, the elves were already around and their abilities were known, and this knowledge is part of what made the man who became Santa Claus decide to set up his workshop at the North Pole.


Both points are the same, if the elves were already there and their abilities known, why not ET’s too? And how that refutes the idea that Santa’s elves are potential ET’s is lost on me.

Regardless, I am not here to argue that case. I am here to argue that Elfish Labor should not be unionized. To that end, allow me to address these statements:



My opponent suggests that these ET’s would be confused by “enforcing” our labor standards on them. That could possibly be true, but does them being different from us make it okay to exploit them?


There is simply no evidence that they are being exploited. As a matter most evidence would indicate that they are perfectly content as every yuletide Santa takes to his sleigh and delivers to all of the deserving boys and girls the ever changing, and ever more complex, toys of their dreams.



Besides, if they’re that different we don’t have to impose our standards on them; we can find out what they like and give it to them, or at least try to.


So now we are not talking about unionizing their labor, but giving them what they 'like'? Fine by me, give them what they like as long as it does not interfere with their labor practices as the seamless functioning of Santa's Workshop is essential to Christmas as we know it.

Although it seems to me that the elves are finding free time to do the things they enjoy, without your help. Here they are found relaxed and smiling while disco dancing:

Here they are happily disco dancing.





How can we NOT provide equitable compensation and benefits to any group of sentient beings and call ourselves a modern, civilized society? Did not Western civilization dispense with slavery and inequality decades ago?

Forcing Western Civilization standards on a race that is immortal and magical? Well I must say that smacks of a very colonial and short-sighted mentality on my opponents behalf. As we have seen, repeatedly, throughout history, that the imposition of Western cultural mores has seldom led to anything other than strife and a loss of cultural identity for those on the receiving end.

This is a dangerous proposition dear Readers and Judges, and frankly flippant in its disregard for the unique nature of the Elfish, as well as woefully disrespectful of the elfish culture they must already have in place (note: disco dancing). And it very much runs the risk of disrupting x-mas unleashing hordes of angry, disillusioned children on to the populous as a whole.



If you think that the next generation will inevitably have anger and resentment towards the current generation as they grow up, just imagine their anger if they discover that we’ve deliberately exploited an entire species because they aren’t as intelligent as most of us. Talk about angry children!!


No child has ever been angry at receiving a toy from Santa, even when they get the one they did not request, they still have the joy of receiving a gift. Besides, I don’t see any young adults taking to the streets over the very real issue of child labor in China that had been making the shoes on their feet for the last 20 years.



Since we’ve already established that Santa, in all probability, doesn’t have any mind control magic….


Ummm, no we haven’t. As a matter of fact I believe I addressed this at the beginning of my post and await your explanation of how it could be so.



if the elves are being coerced into working for Santa, he is probably using mind control technology acquired from U. S. Black Ops … It’s only one small step from using it on elves to using it on humans; they may in fact be conducting long-term testing on the elves preparatory to using it on you and I! In any case, we owe it to the elves - and to our own peace of mind - to find out what’s going on up there and correct any violations of elf freedom


So now my opponent is promoting going to the North Pole not as a ‘humantiarian’ gesture to right the inequalities of the oppressesd but to do a covert op to find out if something wicked is in store for her personally.

Mod Edit for url tag.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by MemoryShock]



posted on Dec, 21 2008 @ 11:11 PM
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If managing to enter, leave gifts and exit 90% (ceding 10% for naughtiness) of the homes on Earth -- and keeping in mind that most children stay awake at least once in their lives to get a glimpse of this gift giving ‘magician’ -- and never be seen is not indicative of mind control and management abilities, I would like to know what is.


As I said, other abilities that we know Santa has, such as shape-changing, time travel, and possibly teleportation, readily explain these facts without resorting to mind control for an explanation. I have it on good authority that he can make himself look like their Dad when placing presents in order to fool children, for example.


they are believed to be empowered and potentially dangerous, so much so that modern Scandinavians take great care not to disturb them.


Well, people are superstitious. People try to avoid black cats, walking under ladders, and hole up at home on Friday the 13th, too. Humans tend to be afraid of things they don’t understand, and my guess is that most people don’t understand elves very well.


JRR Tolkien, considered the foremost researcher in the field of elves in general,


As much as I personally love and respect Tolkien as a fiction writer, I do not agree that he is a “foremost researcher “ or authority on the topic of elves. For one thing, Tolkien writes of the elves of “Middle Earth,” which is likely NOT to be our Earth. Tolkien’s elves are tall and slender and possessed of pale skin and ethereal beauty. Our elves, as we can see, do not share these attributes:



Therefore, I am of the opinion that Tolkien’s elves are not the same species as Santa’s helpers, and such comparisons are invalid.


in all the accounts of Santa’s Elves we will see a theme which is that they are far from disempowered and do have the capacity to not only make mischief but defend themselves.


Mischievous, yes. So are children, but we don’t consider them dangerous. Many historical and legendary accounts of elves indicate that they help humans when treated fairly, but may respond with mischief when mistreated. Since they are making our children’s toys, it behooves us to see to it that they are well treated rather than take chances with their “mischief” finding its way into said toys.

“Zombie” Santa? Umm, no. Zombies don’t have pink cheeks, white fluffy beards, or say “ho ho ho” and “Merry Christmas.” They are ugly, smelly, repulsive, and they eat people. I’m sure you sat on Santa’s lap at least once as a child. Did he smell dead? No, I didn’t think so. Do we have any reports of Santa eating any of the children who are so trustingly placed in his lap? Although some of them react as though they think he’s going to, I think the answer again is no.


There is simply no evidence that they are being exploited.


You seem to be dismissing (or ignoring?) my opening. Santa’s elves are required to live in isolation in an inhospitable environment and made to work year-round building toys. Perhaps some of them would like to be doctors instead, or lawyers, or even farmers. But no, they all HAVE to be toymakers. Sounds like exploitation to me.
Remember our view of Santa’s workshop? Or have a look at this view:



See any modern conveniences there? Any automation? Nope. Manual labor with outdated tools. How much better might the toys get if the elves DID have a labor union and got a little modernized?


So now we are not talking about unionizing their labor, but giving them what they 'like'?


That’s basically what labor unions do, dear. Try to help people get what they need or want. Like better working conditions, an equitable salary, benefits, paid holidays and vacations, etc. Of course, those are things that humans generally want. Perhaps they want an iron-free environment, or a different type of lighting, or perhaps they’d like to work nights. How do we know if no one asks them?


Here they are happily disco dancing.


First off, “happily” and “disco dancing” really don’t belong in the same sentence, and secondly, what makes you think they’re actually dancing and not testing the disco ball, or the floor, or a new game which someone wanted for Christmas?


Forcing Western Civilization standards on a race that is immortal and magical?


Now who’s making assumptions? I am not suggesting that we force any particular standards on them. I am suggesting that we help them form a union and then allow them to ask for the working conditions that they would prefer. If they truly are content, nothing will change. If they aren’t, then change needs to happen.


Besides, I don’t see any young adults taking to the streets over the very real issue of child labor in China that had been making the shoes on their feet for the last 20 years.


How many of them are really aware of it? Besides, child labor in China is a very complex issue, and it’s not a question of one species enslaving another. Yes, they’re dhildren, but they’re all human.


So now my opponent is promoting going to the North Pole not as a ‘humantiarian’ gesture to right the inequalities of the oppressed but to do a covert op to find out if something wicked is in store for her personally.


Great job twisting around what I said. I’ll have to go back and give you a star for that.
Nevertheless, no, that isn’t quite what I said. I said that we need to find out what the situation really is up there so that appropriate action can be taken. Everyone - regardless of species - deserves decent working conditions, equitable hours, adequate compensation, and some benefits.

Toys for children doesn’t justify slavery and exploitation. Other organizations exist to take up the slack, such as Toys for Tots and the Salvation Army. Let’s give the elves a break. Besides, as the world increasingly has more technology and less magic, and the world population of children keeps increasing, it’s going to be harder and harder for them to keep up.



posted on Dec, 22 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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SECOND RESPONSE



As I said, other abilities that we know Santa has, such as shape-changing, time travel, and possibly teleportation, readily explain these facts without resorting to mind control for an explanation. I have it on good authority that he can make himself look like their Dad when placing presents in order to fool children, for example.


Okay, fine. You win. Santa has no mind control abilities, although someone certainly could argue the above example would make a case for it, that someone won’t be me. Why?

Because I am here to dissuade any, and all, from the belief that we need to insert human standards, or opinion for that matter, into the workings of these powerful, magical, immortal beings who have the great responsibility of The Most Wonderful Day of the Year – and every year choose to meet that responsibility. Beings who, if Santa has no mind control powers, are free to do what they want and what they want to do is make toys for children and make sure Santa can get those orders filled and ready for Christmas Eve.



Mischievous, yes. So are children, but we don’t consider them dangerous.


Speak for yourself, and I am sure there the world is full of people, besides me, who consider children dangerous. But, as it is the Holiday Season, I will not bum-out our debate citing endless examples of how wrong you are in that particular assumption. I will instead keep pointing out how wrong you are in the assumptions you make in regards to our topic at hand.



Many historical and legendary accounts of elves indicate that they help humans when treated fairly, but may respond with mischief when mistreated. Since they are making our children’s toys, it behooves us to see to it that they are well treated rather than take chances with their “mischief” finding its way into said toys.


And do we have any evidence of “mischief” finding its way into our toys that would speak to elfish mistreatment by those standards? And I am not speaking of an odd malfunction here and there, and we certainly cannot cite toys that are recalled by their manufacturer, i.e. Mattel, as we know those do not come from Santa’s workshop.

The answer to my rhetorical question is no we do not have any evidence of “mischief” finding its way into the children’s toys, nor have we for millennia. So, it would seem that the elves do not consider themselves mistreated, as their primary outlet if they did -- as my opponent has herself stated -- would be to make mischief with the toys.

*I would also like to point out to the Readers and Judges that my opponent has once again digressed from a pure humanitarian-it’s-the-civilized-right-thing-to-do-argument, to one that is self-serving when citing the urgent need to go to the North pole and begin meddling about.*



Santa’s elves are required to live in isolation in an inhospitable environment and made to work year-round building toys. Perhaps some of them would like to be doctors instead, or lawyers, or even farmers. But no, they all HAVE to be toymakers.


Dear opponent, all evidence points to them WANTING to be toymakers as we have established and agreed that they are magical, empowered, immortal, not under Santa’s control and not inclined to act-out by wreaking havoc of the obvious kind while doing the duties they clearly love and cherish.

As to your opinion that the North Pole is an inhospitable, isolated place to live; I say that is exactly what it is, your opinion. And to further demonstrate how wrong that opinion is -- Exhibit A:

A multi-generational portrait of elves outside dancing and clearly enjoying it



They do not even seem to need any additional clothing when cavorting outside. To the Christmas Elf sensibility the snow driven tundra is most likely akin to paradise as they probably are, by your own admission in an earlier post, natural inhabitants of the snowy climes; hence Santa’s Workshop being located there by necessity.



See any modern conveniences there? Any automation? Nope. Manual labor with outdated tools. How much better might the toys get if the elves DID have a labor union and got a little modernized?


See any X-Boxes? I-Pod’s? Wii’s? My opponent is resorting to using an artists rendering from the 19th century and attempting to characterize working conditions in today’s 21st Workshop, but even if her drawing is still accurate it is patently clear that elves have whatever tools they require to do their job. The obvious evidence of this is that their job keeps getting done, year in and year out, with no discernable glitches.



… what makes you think they’re actually dancing and not testing the disco ball, or the floor, or a new game which someone wanted for Christmas?


This:



As we have seen repeatedly, Santa’s elves delight in dance. I would go so far as to assert that it is a mainstay of their culture and the primary outlet of expression of joy and happiness for. Granted, it would seem that Santa would like for them to work as well, but it does not appear that he feels the needs to monitor them constantly. The job is getting done and they are clearly happy while they are doing it.



Perhaps they want an iron-free environment, or a different type of lighting, or perhaps they’d like to work nights. How do we know if no one asks them?


And here is the crux of our debate.

My opponent insists on presuming that the Elves must be asked by human representatives what it is they need and I find that this whole line of ‘reasoning’ is not only racist and colonial in its mentality, but suspect.

That’s right, suspect.

Readers and Judges, before I cede the page to my opponent I would like to remind you of an earlier, chilling, statement where she suggested that “adopting the North Pole as a territory of the U. S. (like Guam or the U. S. Virgin Islands) might seriously help the U. S. economy.”.

I ask that you keep in mind those words, as well as the inconsistencies in her argument as to why it is so imperative we go on this -- by her own account -- simple fact-finding mission. While surely there is flawed logic at work in the basic position of her argument, I am now personally alarmed at the very real possibility of there being nefarious intent behind it to boot.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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My opponent has ended her last post with the suggestion that I have “nefarious intent” and that my concerns are less than humanitarian (elfitarian?). I remind you, however, that my opening was full of concern for the elves and and spoke repeatedly of a desire to help them and better their lives. It is my opponent, not I, who has dragged us off into this dark fantasy land of zombie Santas and diabolical elves. I, of course, had no choice but to counter lest you think that I was unable to respond and be left with the impression that she must be right.


powerful, magical, immortal beings


While elves most probably have some magical abilities, or some magic in their nature, I do not - and have not - agreed that they are powerful or immortal. It’s somewhat likely that they have a longer lifespan than humans, but that doesn’t make them immortal. Nor do they appear to be powerful. I remind you of the webcam in my opening. Did they LOOK powerful to you when they were running from polar bears and snowmen and being abducted by aliens? (Incidentally, the fact that they were being abducted by aliens would seem to indicate that they are NOT, in fact, ET’s themselves.)

The one thing we do seem to reliably know about Santa’s elves is that they are small. When not being called elves, they are invariably referred to as Santa’s little helpers. Most depictions of them also indicate that they are very short, albeit correctly proportioned. Despite my efforts to deal with my opponent’s characterization of elves as powerful and dangerous, I remain convinced that they are friendly, meek, and good-hearted little people.

Although we apparently know very little about the true nature of elves, we know plenty about human nature. And Santa is undeniably human. He may have somehow acquired an unnaturally long lifespan during the transition from Bishop Nicholas to Santa Claus, or it may be that Santa Claus is, in fact, a hereditary title, and the “Santa Claus” we know is a descendant of the original Nicholas. Regardless, he is human, and as I said we know human nature, which is to take advantage of the weak, vulnerable, meek, and the kind-hearted.

Let’s think about this. While the magical nature of elves (or simple evolutionary adaptation) may render them less vulnerable to the cold, there still isn’t much in the way of food available at the North Pole. You can’t grow crops in ice! They may fish or hunt seals, but it’s likely that Santa imports most of their food. So, there they are, dependent on Santa for food and shelter, trapped at the North Pole.

Perhaps they think of leaving, but where could they go? They have no birth certificates, no passports, no citizenship. Without this modern paperwork proving their identities, they have nowhere to go. They are imprisoned at the North Pole as effectively as ever criminals were imprisoned on Alcatraz, and if they stay at the North Pole they’d best work for “the Man” - Santa Claus.

He has them by the short hairs, my friends, and they know it.


as we know those do not come from Santa’s workshop.


We do? Another unproven assumption. First of all, as my opponent has previously pointed out herself, Santa Claus HIDES. He avoids being seen. Why this is we don’t exactly know, but obviously he does not want us to have proof of his existence. Billions of toys appearing under Christmas trees each year marked “Made in the North Pole”, or with no markings at all, would certainly prove his existence - and that of his elf-filled workshop. Santa, therefore, cleverly instructs his elves to put misleading labels on all the toys, making it appear that they come from Mattel or Hasbro or Lego instead of his workshop.

And there is yet another reason for this necessary deception - today’s children, materialistically oriented and status conscious, would be quick to cry “this isn’t a real Barbie, it doesn’t say Mattel. Santa’s brought me a cheap fake!” Certainly you can see the need to prevent such drama.

We can not, therefore, reasonably conclude that malfunctioning toys have not come from Santa’s workshop, so they may, indeed, be evidence of the elves’ discontent.


all evidence points to them WANTING to be toymakers


Not quite. As I’ve pointed out above, they’re trapped at the North Pole and have nowhere to go. And since the only industry available at the North Pole is making toys (or taking care of reindeer perhaps), they have no choice but to become toymakers.


Santa’s elves delight in dance. ... they are clearly happy while they are doing it.


My dearest opponent, you are wasting your word count. Our readers and judges are much too intelligent to fall for this obvious fallacy. People, sentient, self-aware beings capable of creativity, art, and making toys will snatch what happiness they can no matter their circumstances. Did not the African slaves in America have celebrations, and dance, and make music? And yet, surely no one here would consider that an indication that they were “happy” with their lot and did not need to be freed from their slavery.


My opponent insists on presuming that the Elves must be asked by human representatives what it is they need and I find that this whole line of ‘reasoning’ is not only racist and colonial in its mentality, but suspect.


As I’ve said, I find it highly likely that Santa Claus, being human, takes advantage of the fact that his meek, small, and good-natured “helpers” have nowhere to go and are dependent on him for everything - food, shelter, and their very lives. They have no recourse and no choices, except to work for “the man” or die. Obviously it will require outside intervention to change this despicable status quo which has existed for hundreds of years. These poor elves, who have for generations brought joy and happiness to human children, deserve choices, they deserve to be able to decide their own fate and future, not have it forced upon them by the “jolly” fat man who controls them in a manner similar to the virtual enslavement endured by miners who “owed their soul to the company store.”



posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 02:38 PM
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THIRD RESPONSE

Once again I must ask that we get our facts straight here using evidence and not personal opinion. For starters Santa’s workshop is not in the “North Pole” -



However, in 1925 it was discovered that there are no reindeer in the North Pole but there are lots in Lapland, Finland. Nobody has actually seen their village because the passage to it is a secret that is known only to Father Christmas and the elves. We know that it is somewhere on the Korvatunturi mountain in the Savukoski county of Lapland, Finland, which is on the Finnish-Russian border.


1:1

Now let us look to my opponent’s primary resource around which she is basing her questionable argument.



I remind you of the webcam in my opening. Did they LOOK powerful to you when they were running from polar bears and snowmen and being abducted by aliens?
(Incidentally, the fact that they were being abducted by aliens would seem to indicate that they are NOT, in fact, ET’s themselves.)


While I genuinely suspect that her 'webcam' is nothing more than agit-prop for a suspect agenda -- namely Heike’s desire to send the U.S. on a fact finding mission with the goal of annexing the ‘North Pole’ and taking over Santa’s Workshop to boot -- I will say that if it were a legitimate representation, the idea of elves as alien species is in no way undermined by that. They simply may be getting a ride to their home planet for a little R&R.

As to there being no evidence of Santa’s Elves as Aliens let’s look at another resource that speaks not only to that, but to their immortality as well:



Elves are originally seen to be the creation of Germanic paganism who thought them to be the creatures of light who lived in the heavens. Elves have been depicted as male or female, tiny or dwarf-like, youthful and immortal with magical powers.


2:1

As to her comment:



When not being called elves, they are invariably referred to as Santa’s little helpers. Most depictions of them also indicate that they are very short, albeit correctly proportioned. Despite my efforts to deal with my opponent’s characterization of elves as powerful and dangerous, I remain convinced that they are friendly, meek, and good-hearted little people.



We can surely agree that Santa’s elves are small, but that’s all we can agree on. My opponent keeps insisting that her feelings about the nature of the elves as oppressed and meek are enough to insist that her, suspicious to my mind, position is legitimate while overlooking all evidence to the contrary.



Elves are known to be tiny, dwarf-like creatures, either male or female, with pointed ears. They are youthful but immortal and have magical powers that can control what you see and experience.


2:2

Let us consider this evidence with my opponents following statement:



Regardless, he (Santa) is human, and as I said we know human nature, which is to take advantage of the weak, vulnerable, meek, and the kind-hearted.


If, by her own admission, Santa is indeed human would it not seem that magical, immortal creatures who can control what you see and experience would have the upper hand in dictating their own destinies?

Frankly, given what I know now, I am a little concerned for Santa’s safety. It seems, given this disproportionate power the elves have at their disposal, that Santa is the one more likely to be at their mercy than the other way around, as it is entirely possible that Santa is under the mind control of the elves.

Why else would a grown man choose to live in a climate that is surely inhospitable to humans and only be allowed to leave one night a year to manically deliver the elves creations?

Think about it…

He may well be an automaton, his mind trapped inside of his fat red-clad body, silently screaming in agony while being forced to act jolly for their amusement while serving their hellish-elvish agenda of having their magically-made toys distributed globally. While we cannot know for sure, I would posit that this is certainly a more likely scenario than the one where these miniature creatures with God-like powers are controlled by that of a mere human.


IN NUMBERS SO FEW aka THIS IS THEIR STORY AND THEY ARE STICKING TO IT

Regardless of the elves true disposition towards the fat man, they do front that he is the boss and they his helpers. They have a whole history, lineage and specific job descriptions that they have assigned themselves.

It goes like this:



The elves are the children of Gryla and Leppaludi, their father and mother. Some people say that there are 13 elves, some say 9, some 6. They are very clever and help Father Christmas to design the toys that children and grownups order by email or snailmail. We know at least 6 of the duties they have.

Here it is with their Westernised names:

  • Bushy Evergreen is the inventor of the magic toymaking machine.

  • Shinny Upatree is Father Christmas's (Santa's) oldest friend and cofounder of the secret village in Lapland.

  • Wunorse Openslae designed Father Christmas's sleigh and maintains it for top performance. (It is believed that the reindeer reach speeds faster than Christmas tree lights.) He also cares for the reindeer.

  • Pepper Minstix is the guardian of the secret of the location of Father Christmas's village.

  • Sugarplum Mary is Head of the Sweat Treats, and assistant to Father Christmas's wife, Mrs Claus, also known as Mary Christmas.

  • Alabaster Snowball is very important. He is the Administrator of the Naughty & Nice list.


1:2

So, by the elves own admission they say they number somewhere between 6 and 13.

When we consider the capabilities at the elves disposal: their ability to manufacture billions of toys while being in numbers so few, not to mention being able to control what others see and feel, surely puts them beyond our mortal reach in terms of being able to understand, or even ‘give them what they like’. And, I say, makes any standard we may want to impose to better their lot not only insignificant, but laughably presumptuous.



posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 07:16 PM
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there are no reindeer in the North Pole


Oh, my goodness! Oh, my dear!
You have missed the obvious here!
To understand this you must try
Silly TWISI, reindeer fly!

Or, to be a bit more pedantic, neither lions, tigers, cockatoos, macaws, kangaroos, ostriches, etc. etc. are indigenous to North America, and yet we have substantial populations of all the above in America.


Santa’s workshop is indubitably at the North Pole. A google search turns up 572,000 hits for “North Pole Workshop,” all of which refer to Santa’s village and workshop at the North Pole.


Elves have been depicted as male or female, tiny or dwarf-like, youthful and immortal with magical powers. .. They are youthful but immortal and have magical powers that can control what you see and experience.


Yes, I looked up your source and it’s ancient history. Here’s another passage from your own source:


Elves ... assumed a new significance in the mid-1800's ...the elves' true role in modern life: fairies that are somewhat mischievous, but the true friends and helpers of Father Christmas... the elves help Santa design and make the wonderful toys and gifts he brings to children ... take care of Santa's reindeer and keep his sleigh in good condition


So.. since the mid 1800’s .. over 150 years ago .. we’ve had a much better understanding of elves, or perhaps they’ve changed some over 150 years. Certainly humans have!

As regards the information about the number of elves, your source admits that:


Some people think that Santa employs six elves, while others think that he has nine elf assistants. Others think that there are as many as 13 elves living with Santa to help him


Did you catch that? Some people think, and there is no consensus regarding the number. Perhaps this refers to the original family of elves who went to the North Pole with Santa in the mid 1800’s; but since that original family had 6, 9, or 13 children (depending on whose “thinking” you agree with), it would appear that elves are quite prolific and have certainly managed to increase their numbers in the last 150 years. A current census could be quite helpful and illuminating, but .. we don’t have one. So, you see, we really have no idea how many elves are currently living and working at Santa’s Village at the North Pole.


it is entirely possible that Santa is under the mind control of the elves.


Oh, now. Let’s not throw ALL logic and reason out the _ St. Nicholas - Santa Claus - as a charitable, generous human who loves children and wants to make sure that all children have toys at Christmas makes sense. On the other hand, the idea that a bunch of mischievous, powerful, immortal, and magical beings (who are, in other parts of my opponent’s favorite site, characterized as pranksters who cause nightmares, tangle peoples’ hair while they are sleeping, sour milk, and steal sausages) would not only voluntarily spend all of their own time making toys for human children, but also abduct and enslave a human couple (Santa and Mrs. Claus) for that purpose, is ludicrous. In other legends and stories elves are considered to be aloof and unemotional, meddling in the affairs of humans only when it benefits them or when they feel they must. What, then, could possibly be the purpose behind all the toy making and toy giving? Such creatures could care less whether human children are happy - or well-behaved.

I say to you, therefore, that my opponent’s entire premise is preposterous. There must be more than 13 elves, and they can’t be the powerful creatures my opponent supposes them to be or they wouldn’t spend their lives making playthings for the children of humans.

A far more likely scenario is that an original family of 6, 9, or 13 (depending on who you believe) elves volunteered to go with St. Nick to the North Pole and set up the village, workshop, and reindeer barns and paddocks, but over the last 150 years their children, and their children’s children, have had little choice but to remain at the North Pole and either make toys or tend reindeer.

This, my friends, is slavery of the worst kind - slavery induced by ignorance, as these poor elves know no other life but what they have and most likely have no idea that their lives could be any different, or better. For over a century they have slaved, year in and year out, for the benefit of OUR children but not their own. Deny this ignorance! Freedom for the elves!



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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CLOSING

The links that I presented in my last post were all found Googling History of Santa's Elves . Unfortunately for my opponent there are many more links that tell the same history.

Readers and Judges, I have tried in this debate to expose you to as many of the histories of the elves that were available so you would not be left with just ‘my feelings’ on the matter. We all know that there is obfuscation surrounding Santa and his Workshop, the reasons for this are themselves the subject of much speculation and conjecture. What is not speculated, or the subject of conjecture, leaving even my opponent and I in agreement, is that elves are magical and, at the very least long-lived, if not outright immortal.

If we were to speculate about the scope and power of the kind of magic it takes to make toys for billions of girls and boys in the space of one year, by such a small group of individuals -- the numbers, while in some dispute between my worthy opponent and I, is still concurred to be no more than what 6-13 individuals could reproduce in 150 years -- we would we would have to imagine a magical power that is almost, if not outright, beyond human comprehension.

And what do these mighty beings choose to do with this awesome power? Create. Apparently they prefer to create toys, so that is what they do.

And, so as not to be drowning in their creations, they have a delivery system in Santa Claus; one that it is possible they have actually devised for themselves as we have all agreed here Santa is human but, is surely imbued with, or aided by, some magical abilities at least one night out of the year.

My opponent would like to presume that the elves do this to make human children happy, and that we in turn ‘owe them’ an invasion of their privacy for this reason. I say, we have no evidence anywhere that speaks to what motivates these awesome creatures to do what they do. All we have for sure is the result, billions of happy boys and girls on Christmas Day and a tradition of human expectation that has built-up around the delivery of what it is the elves choose to use their formidable powers of creation for.

It would appear the only thing the elves would like from us in return for being the beneficiaries of their largess is to be left alone; otherwise, why all the secrecy? As surely these are not individuals who are not in control of their own destiny.

If they wanted us to know why they do what they do, or how they do what they do, they would; all evidence points to the fact that it is well within their ability to do so. We cannot take seriously the argument that they are somehow under the control of Santa when we have agreed he is human and they are possessed of awesome, inconceivable magical abilities.

So let us not be swayed by intentions which are, at best, guided by an anthropomorphic sensibility and at worst something decidedly more sinister. Intentions if allowed to be acted upon would, in all likelihood jeopardize the Most Wonderful Day of the Year itself. And in return for that, let us give the elves the only thing it appears they require from us, which is to be left alone.



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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At long last, judgment is in. Heike wins this by majority decision.

The judges comments:



Judgment; Heike wins the debate.

Reasoning;

Opening; Heike began by making some rather damning assertions about the conditions under which Santa's elves toil, which were neatly summarized at the end. To corroborate, video evidence taken by an elf-cam was supplied. Although this evidence did bolster the claims of unsafe working conditions, it seemed to contradict some of the claims. There were various clear instances of elves taking breaks. Despite the evidence that they are allowed breaks, the unsafe working conditions are clearly a problem that even Santa recognizes as indicated by the "0 days accident free" sign above the _

TheWayISeeIt begins by presenting three alternate histories of the elves. One of the possible histories presents an immediate problem to TWISI's first main objection to the evidence presented by Heike, the objection that,

I must ultimately point out that as amusing as my opponent’s link to a cartoon world is, let us not confuse it with the real world…

However, TWISI also proposes that the elves may be

stranded on Earth for millennia but with a concept of time and space completely different.

This could indicate that elves are from a different dimension than us, and that could be the 2cnd dimension, hence their oddly flat appearance on the elfcam. We will have to see how Heike handles these objections.

As a judge however, I have to say that TWISI's own evidence negates the objection to the video evidence and as such I will consider it un-refuted at this point.

TWISI also argues that even if elves were being mistreated that the consequences to society are so great as to be worth the cost.

Round one:

Heike begins by arguing against the claims TWISI has made regarding the elves origin. Heike does make a good argument that the elves cannot be so inherently dangerous that Santa MUST keep them locked up. (And video evidence seems to corroborate this) Although Heike does not at this point defend the video information as valid, Heike does bring up a point that simply being different does not necessarily give one the right to exploit them.

Heike also fails to pick up on a very promising line of defense for the elves, and that is that if the elves were indeed Finnish as one of TWISI's elf origin claims suggests, that those elves would then seem to fall under Finnish law. Heike could have then used Finnish labor standards to support their case for better working conditions for the elves.

Despite this missed opportunity, Heike does handily refute TWISI's claim that improved conditions for the elves would cause the breakdown of our society, and ends with some support for their argument that difference does not give us free reign to exploit.

TWISI in this round is falling into a trap many very good debaters find themselves in. Trying to cover all possible objections and bringing in too many defenses for their case. This can only be successful IF you are certain that one defense you bring in is not in direct contradiction with another. Unfortunately for TWISI, casting the net too widely is dragging in contradiction.

TWISI brings in a source, uncyclopedia.wikia.com... that seems to support a history of brutal enslavement of the elven by humans. And, the fact that the elves revolted show that they are not willing participants in Santa's plan, but rather are compelled to work against their will.

TWISI emphasizes that they do not wish us to consider this the best source, but then fails to provide a link to a source they find more credible. If it doesnt help your case, leave it out. In this case, it has been introduced, and not refuted by TWISI with the alleged more credible source, and it is actually quite damning.

TWISI does make some fair points by stating that Heike has not shown the ET origin theory untrue, but Heike's argument is not that it is ok to exploit the elves if they are alien, and so failing to refute that point is not damaging to Heike's case. So far, TWISI is doing more damage to their own case than to Heike's.

Round 2:

In this round no real ground was gained by Heike.

Although Heike does make an effort to counter the claims made by TWISI, there is no real solid case building done in this round.

TWISI does effectively counter a point made by Heike that not everyone considers children harmless. (This judge among them!) But fails to see how their own evidence is contradicting the claim that the elves are doing what they do of their own volition.

TWISI also brings in more photo's of elves apparently enjoying themselves as proof that they are not being enslaved. However, many slaves throughout history have danced and sung, and otherwise tried themselves to make their lot more bearable. We will have to see if Heike picks up on this.

Round 3;

Heike does indeed pick up on this.


Did not the African slaves in America have celebrations, and dance, and make music? And yet, surely no one here would consider that an indication that they were “happy” with their lot and did not need to be freed from their slavery.


Heike makes a very good appeal in this round. They address points of contention brought up by TWISI logically, and eloquently. It was a good wrap up of the argument to set the stage for closing.

TWISI seems to finally be taking a stand as to the origin of the elves. I am not sure that their origin was the best route to take in building their case, but it is the one consistent theme in their argument. Unfortunately for TWISI, this decision to choose a story and stick with it is coming awfully late in the game, and is already undermined by their own earlier suppositions.

TWISI does bring up a very interesting possibility to counter Heike's claim that Santa being human is subject to human nature and humans have a propensity to exploit the weak. TWISI introduces the possibility that Santa, not the elves may be the victims here. Again, this is late in the game, perhaps too late, but would have been a very good position to argue from had they begun this line from the start and been consistent.

Closing;

Heike doesnt really do much to refute TWISI's assertion that it could be the elves that enslave Santa, and not vice versa. (ie; that Santa has access to a vehicle at least once a year and returns willingly)

TWISI, on the other hand brings up good points that we cannot assume that the elves give toys to good children to make them happy. We cannot attribute human motivation to the elves without knowing more about them.

Summary:

Both fighters did an excellent job at different places in the debate. TWISI really came on strong at the end, but could not undo the damage to their argument caused by their initial bringing in of contradictory evidence. While Heike did lose a little focus at the end, and failed to really address TWISI's very valid points, Heike over all made a very consistent well reasoned appeal for the elves. Unfortunately for TWISI, a strong ending in this case was not supported through the argument as a whole, and some of their own introductions into evidence contradict the conclusion.




This has got to be one of the funniest debates I've read in awhile.


But, alas, there can only be one victor, and in my humble opinion this is Heike.

Heike started off with a strong argument and stuck with her points throughout the course of the debate. She dealt deftly with TWISI's points and came out on top.

TWISI spread herself out a little to thin with various lores concerning this mysterious group of creatures. In the end, she could not support any single theory and spent more time defending her stance than playing offense.

Heike's stance that the elves present predicament was analogous to slavery, while calling upon the good works of Mother Theresa, and throwing in a little black ops conspiracy was simply genius.
All in all, this proved to be a most delightful debate.




posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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Congratulations, Heike! I wish I could say your victory was a surprise, but I was sure I had a defeat coming.

Thank you to the judges for taking the time to read it, I did indeed spread myself too thin and went willy-nillying around as I had pretty much hung myself with my Opening (that's what I get for trying to work in humour and conspiracy theories).

A great time was had though, and for that I thank Heike!



posted on Jan, 20 2009 @ 03:04 PM
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Thank you, Judges. Thanks TWISI! Thank you, readers, and thanks Swee .. uh, Shock I mean, for setting it up.

It was supposed to be fun and I hope it was fun. I tried to remember that it was all in fun and keep it light and humorous, but I think my argumentative nature got the best of me - and apparently got the best of TWISI too!.


Just kidding.

Actually, TWISI, I have to say that I was really suprised and impressed. When we first started I remember thinking "Now, how is anyone going to argue AGAINST fair labor practices for the elves?" But you came up with not one valid argument, but a bunch of them! Good job!





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